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JockII

A response to Enki - How soft and pointless has PvP become.

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45 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Yes but it happens because we trust, not because the game is broken. There is no difference between thefts in freedom and in epic. Permissions are there and the system is in place to handle thefts. We as players make an error in judgement costing us our assets.

 

This is an old argument. We cant have it both ways. We cant have the current status quo of our respective servers without GM intervention. We either give up our assets safety, our population numbers, or our enjoyment of our current playstyle. Without a GM intervening, we cant just punish those that behave in a harmful way without sacrificing our current way of play. Thats why Enki intervened. 

All I am saying, is that while theft itself is the same everywhere. The level of "pain tolerance" should be higher on PvP servers. Some things, which shouldn't be available on PvE servers, should be possible in full loot PvP environments. Which means, you can't enforce same rulesets on those two completely different mindsets.

 

With this I agree tho, that Enki intervened, he simply was too harsh on Chaos.

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The devs should focus efforts to fix pvp as a priority at this point and doing whatever is necessary to avoid the constant amount of town square threads like these.

 

Many great suggestions can be found if you look, here is another, how about removing pvp from the freedom cluster, the only way to get there is going inside a epic portal, you retain all your skills, but items don't go or leave. I personally think having the epic curve or even a increased rate would encourage people to actively go there to pvp and come back to freedom when they choose. This would hurt the freedom economy a little bit but people seem to think separation/merge is the only way to ultimately fix this and I am in concordance. 

 

I think the general grievances with pvp are ultimately getting out of hand, should be acknowledged and fixed swiftly stop ignoring them please. Thanks. 

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23 minutes ago, rixk said:

With this I agree tho, that Enki intervened, he simply was too harsh on Chaos.

I think that we can all agree that the rules cannot be made to cover 2  very different style of play and atmosphere.

 

I think it's also fair to assume that we relatively agree that freedom should have protections in the event of theft as a last defence if adequite game mechanics can not prevent theft.

 

We also seem to have some level agreement that chaos and PvP as general should not be attached to Pve directly. With the ability to off load goes to a safe haven.

 

I would also say that it is fair to assume that we require more meaningful PvP to restablish some level of long term, community driven objective warfare. That will offer people to build trust and allenate those that are malicious and prove they are untrustworthy by the community rejecting them safe havens.

 

Restoration of value of the wl and other new global objective or map control position  is on be method to a good step to building meaningful PvP.

 

A good suggestion here(better than my permadeath idea):

 

I  would say that the discussion to merge epic and Chaos should be reopened with an open mind and a good look at premium numbers.

 

I do suggest that a method of moving between the freedom and PvP cluster naked via teleport should be in place so People who skill up on PvP can join PvP at their new pleasure.

 

PvP improvements are required, how gm's intervine needs to be light handed and well represented reason why, open to public scrutiny as to build a better game and community.

Edited by JockII
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We separated PvP and Freedom for quite some time after Indy first opened...
 

Wild (chaos) had such a low population after a few years that it was all but impossible to even find another player to fight there.

So, they connected it to freedom... and now we are back to the same problem that caused rolf to add home server raiding and lead to the circumstances that created the freedom cluster in the first place...  PvP loot is being stored in complete safety on a PvE server

 

Not sure what (if any) the solution could be... just finding it interesting that we have once again come full circle... many of wurm's problems go this way... the solution to problem A causes problem B, and the solution to problem B ends up recreating problem A....

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4 minutes ago, spellcast said:

We separated PvP and Freedom for quite some time after Indy first opened...
 

Wild (chaos) had such a low population after a few years that it was all but impossible to even find another player to fight there.

So, they connected it to freedom... and now we are back to the same problem that caused rolf to add home server raiding and lead to the circumstances that created the freedom cluster in the first place...  PvP loot is being stored in complete safety on a PvE server

 

Not sure what (if any) the solution could be... just finding it interesting that we have once again come full circle... many of wurm's problems go this way... the solution to problem A causes problem B, and the solution to problem B ends up recreating problem A....

I suggest trying it again then, adding special elements to pvp to make it more interesting, better siege, better castle defense, better combat *cough*  take inspiration from other games, overall this would help the game if you roll it out correctly and not half baked.

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1 hour ago, FranktheTank said:

Not to worry Wargasm, people are already doing that.

 

paying-year.png

 

June last year = Returners rewards

December last year = Christmas gifts

Of course there were premium spikes for these.


The rest appears to be consistent, so I really don't see your argument.

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This is no slam on anyone here, including the OP, just something I want to say.

 

Why is it that many hard-core sandbox PVP gamers (I have seen this in dozens of online games) act like rapid dogs protecting their food any time any attempt is made to sensor their actions?  An anything-goes mentality in a sandbox game only seems to foster worse forms of betrayal, greed, and degradation the longer it is permitted.  Where does it end and to what end does it accomplish?  Maybe I just grew up in a different age, but are there really so many people out there who don't give a crap about what they do to others, how they treat others, or what the consequences of their actions are to those they betray/humiliate/destroy (YES, EVEN IN A GAME)?  God help us!

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10 minutes ago, Eyesgood said:

This is no slam on anyone here, including the OP, just something I want to say.

 

Why is it that many hard-core sandbox PVP gamers (I have seen this in dozens of online games) act like rapid dogs protecting their food any time any attempt is made to sensor their actions?  An anything-goes mentality in a sandbox game only seems to foster worse forms of betrayal, greed, and degradation the longer it is permitted.  Where does it end and to what end does it accomplish?  Maybe I just grew up in a different age, but are there really so many people out there who don't give a crap about what they do to others, how they treat others, or what the consequences of their actions are to those they betray/humiliate/destroy (YES, EVEN IN A GAME)?  God help us!

rabid dogs

and...
 

Spoiler

the+world+was+always+awful.jpg

 

 

My has this thread devolved...

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You say the real life value of items causes a lot of the problems in Wurm as this topic shows happened.

How many players would stop playing wurm if the only thing you could sale was players only  , no silver/gold or items for real coin ?

 

As for a pvp fix for payback , would it not be possible to have any items from Chaos taken to pve server not be transferable for so many days  , must be online ingame for timer to count down.

Also would it be possible to have players from chaos coming to pve servers go red  example , be it a mark or symble next to there name .

This would last as for length of time they been on chaos , giving players option to hunt them down on freedom servers for payback.

 

Hope you get the jest of it , Ultima Online had version of this and wore off over time..

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15 minutes ago, Damascus said:

You say the real life value of items causes a lot of the problems in Wurm as this topic shows happened.

How many players would stop playing wurm if the only thing you could sale was players only  , no silver/gold or items for real coin ?

 

As for a pvp fix for payback , would it not be possible to have any items from Chaos taken to pve server not be transferable for so many days  , must be online ingame for timer to count down.

Also would it be possible to have players from chaos coming to pve servers go red  example , be it a mark or symble next to there name .

This would last as for length of time they been on chaos , giving players option to hunt them down on freedom servers for payback.

 

Hope you get the jest of it , Ultima Online had version of this and wore off over time..

I really like this idea, think it would be neat, but, it doesn't solve the problem. 
Even disconnecting Chaos from Freedom(which I think is a terrible idea) wouldn't completely solve the problem. 

As long as there are alts, traders, and banks there will always be a way for someone who steals your things to make it impossible to get them back. 
 

Edited by Matholameu

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30 minutes ago, Eyesgood said:

This is no slam on anyone here, including the OP, just something I want to say.

 

Why is it that many hard-core sandbox PVP gamers (I have seen this in dozens of online games) act like rapid dogs protecting their food any time any attempt is made to sensor their actions?  An anything-goes mentality in a sandbox game only seems to foster worse forms of betrayal, greed, and degradation the longer it is permitted.  Where does it end and to what end does it accomplish?  Maybe I just grew up in a different age, but are there really so many people out there who don't give a crap about what they do to others, how they treat others, or what the consequences of their actions are to those they betray/humiliate/destroy (YES, EVEN IN A GAME)?  God help us!

I think that it is due to many sandbox games generally not offering enough to encourage long term sustainable communities.

 

Plus with the fragility of many of the aspects of leadership and structure are not effective enough to support them to grow.

 

Everything I have state in this thread has been about how the game encourage you to achieve everything alone. Their are no group or community requirements in PvP other then "numbers" a flesh wall beside you to die instead of you.

 

Their need to be better infrastructure to maps that offer points of contention like the wl that give people a requirement to work together but to defend or attack it.

 

Hota is a simple mad rush to grab pillars and secure some ore that most never see the benefits of. Numbers are a method of making people feel Involved but the few get he gains.

 

Unlike back in the day(feel like I"m getting old saying this) the wl had value to everyone as loosing even 1 champ life was painful. You had to do your part to fight, push and defend it.

 

As you got the benefits of the casts and gear to make it easier for everyone to defend it. Each person was offered the equipment, support and help to learn how to PvP because kingdoms had to be better and work better together.

 

Bl failed to do this often and infighting showed just how punishing it could be to not work together having little to show and next to no numbers.

 

We need elements to ignite reasons we should build trust, loyalty and long term allies with this kind of system itnwoukd support the growth of leadership and stability.

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1 hour ago, Joelle said:

 

June last year = Returners rewards

December last year = Christmas gifts

Of course there were premium spikes for these.


The rest appears to be consistent, so I really don't see your argument.

 

that is an assumption, it could be down to the fact that during june and december there are more holidays starting (june being the start of summer holiday for most colleges in the UK for instance) and december being christmas etc =/= more prem to play wurm but it also couldnt, why would people prem at 13 euro to get a christmas gift which is really not of huge value? 

 

 

Edited by blart

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**Ahem. Cough, cough.**  /clears throat and looks embarrassed

 

Ok, I know I'm pve and never pvp'd in Wurm, and so my opinion is maybe unwelcome by some, but I think maybe it's not totally irrelevant.  Reason being, I think it's safe to say that there are no pvpers on either side of this argument who do not want more people to pvp in Wurm.  And I'm pretty sure everybody (ok, mostly everybody), pvp and pve alike, wants to attract more people to Wurm overall.

 

To me, looking at it from the outside, this whole thing appears to have been nothing more than a morally bankrupt person abusing the trust of others, and abusing the fact that on pvp, trusting your kingdom mates is a requirement in order to function.  I wonder, did any other kingdom benefit from this, or did this person just gleefully run off to safety, stick his tongue out, and start selling for personal gain?  I could be wrong but it seems that the pvp folks need to trust their kingdom mates.  On pve, we can be little islands if we aren't willing to trust people we don't know.  It sucks, but we have that option.  Correct me if I'm wrong but from where I sit, it doesn't seem that Wurm-style pvp has that luxury. 

 

If this kind of thing were to be sanctioned by the game, what message does that send to new people thinking about trying it?  It might attract a tiny minority of the average pvpers out there, but certainly not a lot.  I know that situations like this are one of a few reasons I won't pvp in Wurm. And a couple pvp guys I know in RL, my grandson included, took a look at Wurm a few years back when I suggested it and told me thanks but no thanks.  (pretty much laughed at me actually, lol)

 

Well anyway, I think that this should in no way ever become normalized in Wurm, even on pvp even though I don't play there, because I feel it would harm the game as a whole. I was happy to see Enki's post, even though it doesn't have an immediate effect on me because I care about Wurm and would like to see it attracting new pvp and pve folks.

 

Ok, shutting up now.  I usually keep my opinions to myself where pvp is concerned.  I just don't know what comes over me sometimes. :)

 

Edited by Amadee
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You're actually correct Amadee; in chaos in order to function properly you need to have people added to buildings so they can repair in case of a raid, etc. By having to distrust people, you cut your own foot off by not being able to defend properly when needed.  So the fact that the two players could steal everything they did was because of the safety of the deed and the way we need to play on chaos.  We can't just shut everything down, because no one player can be online 24/7 to defend.  It's all about having a good trust between you and your kingdom mates.  Remove that and you might as well not bother having a kingdom, imo.

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We have a sandbox game, so all extreme actions can be punished by community itself. Someone killed? We could kill him. Someone gain trust and stole the goods? We can go, retake stuff and flatten his deed.

 

No need for GM intervention at all or forcing artificial rules.

 

Freedom got all these option limited. I guess it's called FREEDOM ironically then. Freedom is just half-sandbox.

 

Only main problem is the possibility to transfer goods from pvp server to completely safe freedom deed, where none can retrieve them.

 

 

Edited by Wilczan
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7 hours ago, spellcast said:

We separated PvP and Freedom for quite some time after Indy first opened...
 

Wild (chaos) had such a low population after a few years that it was all but impossible to even find another player to fight there.

So, they connected it to freedom... and now we are back to the same problem that caused rolf to add home server raiding and lead to the circumstances that created the freedom cluster in the first place...  PvP loot is being stored in complete safety on a PvE server

 

Not sure what (if any) the solution could be... just finding it interesting that we have once again come full circle... many of wurm's problems go this way... the solution to problem A causes problem B, and the solution to problem B ends up recreating problem A....

 

A middle road might work. Sever the boat connection and replace it with portals, similarly to how you get to Epic. Unlike Epic, keep skills shared between Chaos and Freedom, but inventory seperate. Then you can't take loot out of PVP.

 

Of course you could still always put the loot on an alt, log it out and forget about it. Then the loot is still stored in complete safety. So this problem is clearly more complex than people just being able to take loot to Freedom, as they can also log out the loot thanks to alts. Both would need to be addressed to fix this.

Edited by Ecrir
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Updated op with a spoiler of the general agreements and thoughts of this threads.

 

Please correct me if I have missed anything major. I hope to keep this an open minded debate that allows all voices to contribute in a progressive and  become possitive influence on the game as a whole.

 

However, it is time to  move on to providing solutions to bring back meaningful Pvp and what it may require to Devs to change and build upon.

 

I also urge you to gently reopen the idea of a chaos and epic merger and discuss if this would work and how it should. As this would aid in the consolidation of PvP and separation of pve from PvP.

 

Please keep an open mind and keep it civil. There have been many good points with alot of good back and forth debates that seem to come to well rounded ideas so far in this thread. It has done well to remain on topic and clearly has alot of people interested and passionate about finding solutions. Keep it up.

Edited by JockII

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44 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

 

A middle road might work. Sever the boat connection and replace it with portals, similarly to how you get to Epic. Unlike Epic, keep skills shared between Chaos and Freedom, but inventory seperate. Then you can't take loot out of PVP.

 

Of course you could still always put the loot on an alt, log it out and forget about it. Then the loot is still stored in complete safety. So this problem is clearly more complex than people just being able to take loot to Freedom, as they can also log out the loot thanks to alts. Both would need to be addressed to fix this.

That's a good idea.

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so, anything that didn't agree with your opinions didn't make it onto your list?

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Where is the part where people don't want to pvp when they can't even trust their own kingdom to not rob them blind while they're logged out?

 

And how it adds a huge hurdle for new players to join the pvp scene since they lack any sort of "credit history"? Better to be safe than sorry.

Edited by Hailene
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1 minute ago, Hailene said:

Where is the part where people don't want to pvp when they can't even trust their own kingdom to rob them blind while they're logged out?

 

And how it adds a huge hurdle for new players to join the pvp scene since they lack any sort of "credit history"? Better to be safe than sorry.

seems to me he's only listening to those that agree with his opinions...but calls this an open minded debate

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Nice to see a whole thread from somebody who dosen't even play wurm :)

 

Im 100% behind Enki punishing this sort of behavior. Toxic players do nothing but drive away nice people and detour new people from playing the game.

I think it is fine to deal with this sort of behavior on a case by case basis.

 

You're looking at it all from such a narrow minded position that suits only your own agenda, please try to see the bigger picture.

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34 minutes ago, Lisabet said:

so, anything that didn't agree with your opinions didn't make it onto your list?

Please bring them forward

 

29 minutes ago, Hailene said:

Where is the part where people don't want to pvp when they can't even trust their own kingdom to not rob them blind while they're logged out?

 

And how it adds a huge hurdle for new players to join the pvp scene since they lack any sort of "credit history"? Better to be safe than sorry.

So we need a method of tracking player credibility. How would this work on character sales?

 

More reason are needed to work together to build trust and offer new playera hope to join PvP I agree.

 

How would you like this to be added to the op?

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4 minutes ago, JockII said:

 

41 minutes ago, Lisabet said:

so, anything that didn't agree with your opinions didn't make it onto your list?

Please bring them forward

 

I don't need to, they're already scattered through this thread, ignored by you

 

*edit* I'm done reading and replying here tho, waste of time.

Edited by Lisabet

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2 minutes ago, Lisabet said:

I don't need to, they're already scattered through this thread, ignored by you

Then provide some of the main point you feel I have clearly missed. That you fear I may have brushed over or have simply been drowned out by the many opinion and discussions.

 

I will be happy to alter the op and bring things forward. I am only human and may have missed a few points.

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