Sign in to follow this  
JockII

Champion permadeath return

Recommended Posts

Alot of thought has gone in to this over years of playing. What made pvp so fun on wild and why did it do so well for how small the community was?

 

Purpose for MR and JK was control over the WL, deeds upon deeds where built to push and capture the WL.

 

This created long term and lasting pvp not just skirmishs that epic had with hota but real kingdom building stuff. Why did this work?

 

Champions where powerful and had a permadeath so every single life mattered, the only issue came from the lack of balls to let a massive amount of champions fight it out until they where all dead. 14 people? Champed up all at once, i personally seen this as a huge stimulation to pvp but people where concerned with the inability to compete.

 

What non champs had over champs was infinite time, several champions did permadie. Most in very memorable ways, one for me was the blunderful death of spider's Maincorpse champion of libila.

 

Had all those people died it would have lead the way for new champions or players to fill their place on the battlefield. However, it may have been a bit much and a new system was placed to limit champion numbers. This should have increased the worth of lives for champions but instead they removed lives.

 

This made champions no longer valued becomming little more than a gimic something to play with nothing more. The WL became a thing only to recharge artifacts that even now most have little use or are deemed to valuable to use in open combat.

 

1. Restore champions to a permadeath system will create better communites and more pvp.

 

Why?

 

With PMK's ready to be built quickly and rather cheaply you can have more than a v k battle for ownership over the ability to create champions without fear of dying.

 

War deeds would become a thing again with kingdoms having a goal to work on and a defence to mount. Rather than some ticking numbers that ultimatly hold little value(rank).

 

It would breed new life in to elevation with the need to secure you respective light from the enemy. Not only to deny access to others but to remove a life from a valuable component.

 

3.. Make champion limits tied to land ownership. You want more champ slots claim more land. At 5% ownership per champion that would give 20 champions possible.

 

4. Buff champions (yes buff) as of current i personally see that champions are no long a big thing on the field of battle they require a greater value to risk permadeath.

 

Faith above 100 or cast cost reduced

Channeling difficulty made easier

Bonus damage delt

Higher crit chance (doubled for artifact weapons).

 

These are just a few quick ideas.

 

5. (Some may not like) Disable the ability for default kingdoms to be able to create new gods. Allowing only pmks to establish gods while the kingdom is active, god that are no longer worshiped will fade away. Removing the flood and abundance of gods.  This may require a system to reward current gods to remove them or enable them to create a pmk/following for their religion. Perhaps a new defaul bl kingdom could be added and some gods be divided up among them.

 

Sadly either way pvp and godhood needs changed. This is but a few ideas to bring back some of the value that once existed on pvp.

 

Edit:

 

Question what a out restoring lives and people who just never leave deed after 1 life left.

 

I think 3 respawns (4 deaths) was a good system before and should be the start and max limit of storable lives.

 

Maybe when a champ perma kills another gods champion their god restores all their lives. It would make taking champ lives more valuable as time goes on for someone to try reset their lives. Something of that accord might work.

 

It is also good idea to remeber with a fixed spot allocation your own kingdom may turn on you if you hold it for 1 life. However for added safety, add in requirement to be on a rank giving kill every 6 months or loose a life.

Edited by JockII
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JockII said:

3.. Make champion limits tied to land ownership. You want more champ slots claim more land. At 5% ownership per champion that would give 20 champions possible.

This would make big kingdoms snowball even more.

 

-1 in general

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Sklo:D said:

This would make big kingdoms snowball even more.

 

-1 in general

How so? 

 

They are risking longevity for quick gains. As their champs die they would straight up lose some of their stronger accounts.

 

I personally was in the smallest kingdom on wild when i was doc, a kingdom that often couldn't string 5 fighters together.

 

Know what i did? 

 

Diplomacy with mr and then killed a ###### ton of champs alone and with others.

 

Snowballing only happens when people don't leave their deed to challenge it. Adding land value plus value to the wl/bl means you need to claim land or form alliances to compete. Just like what happened on wild. 

 

Jk had been dominating for years, bl had been gutted of it's pvpers and mr had started to recover from being pushed back to gold coast. 

 

If anything it made them that much stronger and that much a better team. The community within kingdoms was insanly good. Instead of lettiny the "snowball" happen they fought back. Building towers and war deeds as they went. 

 

Something epic is trully missing is this hard pushing land claiming warfare. Not this pansy ass skirmish style of fighting.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just have a feeling that this would add way more risk to those smaller PMK's. They won't want to champ up anyone and then the dominating kingdom will just run ahead even more.

 

Take DD vs TC on Chaos for example. The champs they have in DD are strong and if they did not have Threap and Wulfgar they would be at a major disadvantage. I have my doubts they would champ up if there was permadeath because there is too much risk when being the underdogs.

 

Also this would massively put off any new players to the game that might want to try this if a slot became available. It's something that to me only feels like veteren players would value rather then create a balance.

 

Sorry Jock -1

 

Edit: I can also see champs losing 2 lives and then logging off or sitting on deed for the rest of their time and not playing.

Edited by Iberis
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More people champed on wild than have ever o  epic. Largest group i saw was 14 people champ up at once. I personally helped kill 2 of them nosyt(absolute beast) and xallo(balls deep and lives most of the time). The account i was on had 30fs and 1 other champ. 

 

We baited them into a trap and they died, these are some of the largest names in pvp. Plus on epic new players are not often taught how to pvp and are butchered often. Picked on.

 

With permadeath champs in the mix every kingdom(like wild) will help to teach new players to pvp and become a larger part of the community. 

 

Why?

 

Just like every pvp you see a new name and you focus on them. They get taught to listen and work as a team to prevent death or use this. Building up a larger army and better community. 

 

Besides it is the players decision to create a small kingdom. Diplomacy in wurm sucks it needs something to begin bring it back into the fold.

Edited by JockII

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Threap said:

-1, dumb mechanic

How else does the wl and bl actually have value and if you say artifacts your a moron.

 

Permadeath champions did create war and long term goals of holding it. It is the single reason wild survived for longer than epic ever has. 

 

Even going as far as to create true loyalty to a map. Chaos is still going, many of the towns that where created then still exist now and have become land marks.

 

This is what doesn't happen on epic. Few deeds matter unlike war deeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-6-10 at 9:40 PM, Iberis said:

 

Edit: I can also see champs losing 2 lives and then logging off or sitting on deed for the rest of their time and not playing.

 

We have the challenge ring for a similar reason. Can easy challenge a champion for the spot. Another reason thay champing should be a BIG thing. 

 

Not a gimmik. As it stands now champion is nothing more than 60% damage reduction.

 

Everything else is easy to attain.

 

Edit

Also my earlier responce to you above.

Edited by JockII

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we have now is a point system that is ridiculous. Champions have always seemed like they should be a long lasting, permanent, and strategic thing. It used to be a tough decision to champ, where you would consider gaining immense strength for the potential loss of your character.  Now you gain a comparatively minor strength increase with hardly any drawbacks but this silly point system that discourages any casting being done by the champ and sets hard time limits. Its a complete reverse of what made champs good in the past.

 

I completely agree with the idea that champs being permadeath helped create more pvp over the lights

 

i'd say +1 to bringing back permadeath or at the very least heavily revamping the shitty point system. Hell just give server devs the option to in wurm unlimited, right click the lights and set champs to points or lives system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-6-12 at 0:08 AM, Zaramoth said:

What we have now is a point system that is ridiculous. Champions have always seemed like they should be a long lasting, permanent, and strategic thing. It used to be a tough decision to champ, where you would consider gaining immense strength for the potential loss of your character.  Now you gain a comparatively minor strength increase with hardly any drawbacks but this silly point system that discourages any casting being done by the champ and sets hard time limits. Its a complete reverse of what made champs good in the past.

 

I completely agree with the idea that champs being permadeath helped create more pvp over the lights

 

i'd say +1 to bringing back permadeath or at the very least heavily revamping the shitty point system. Hell just give server devs the option to in wurm unlimited, right click the lights and set champs to points or lives system.

The point system is straight up stupid. Counter productive to champing. I always seen champing as a life comitment your god. True loyalty.

 

Now you can flip flop from being the saviour and champion of one god and then go nah. I now hate this god and want this god.

 

How does that even reflect with the wl and bl faith lore.  Permadeath champions offer a solution to the broken point system and a purpose to controling and fighting over the wl/bl. 

 

Nothing else gives that same level of influence and purpose to those lights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jock the game you are talking about was very very different back then. Champions meant something because there was no such thing as meditation. And skills at the time like you said it the badarses had 40 -50 's at max. It was a different world which cannot compare anymore. 

 

I see where you are going with the suggestion but for wurm it's to far gone a different direction at this point.  It would seriously crush smaller kingdoms because they would not have any choice in the matter they would either have to have champions to survive even the slightest bit at the expense of inevitable perms death. That's a hard pill to swallow. 

 

Rather than limit champion slots to 3 per God 3 per kingdom they should leave the kingdom limit as is but remove the ability for any kingdom to have more then 1 or max 2 same types of champ and remove the champion God limit so that perhaps everyone can have a smg champ for example. God's just like meditation have a meta and that's where balance is needed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, MaurizioAM said:

Jock the game you are talking about was very very different back then. Champions meant something because there was no such thing as meditation. And skills at the time like you said it the badarses had 40 -50 's at max. It was a different world which cannot compare anymore. 

 

I see where you are going with the suggestion but for wurm it's to far gone a different direction at this point.  It would seriously crush smaller kingdoms because they would not have any choice in the matter they would either have to have champions to survive even the slightest bit at the expense of inevitable perms death. That's a hard pill to swallow. 

 

Rather than limit champion slots to 3 per God 3 per kingdom they should leave the kingdom limit as is but remove the ability for any kingdom to have more then 1 or max 2 same types of champ and remove the champion God limit so that perhaps everyone can have a smg champ for example. God's just like meditation have a meta and that's where balance is needed. 

Meditation was in the game and someone on freedom had gone even back then, gaeron was level 11 hate long before the champs where removed. Sotg was just not a must have because you could champ and fight so many people buy risking everything.(someone on freedom had this that long ago)

 

On the stats side some people had 60+ body strength and 70 bc back then also. The game hasn't really changed is still the same people playing it.

 

The only thing that has changed is epic with the game reverted to having home servers( yes Reverted). Also the dumb epic curve and poorly made god system that offers nothing more than a chance to have an op god as it rejuggles round old content.

 

Wild became a better place with it being oure pmk. The only map to trully survive pvp, the reason for this is the history of some of them deeds and the struggles to push land and claim/hold them. Wardeeds made that map what it is and it is still going!

 

All this is because of champions and thr value they added to the wl. With pmks this can only enhance the game.

 

You might be right about the land % control but we need something to make land valuable. This offers this and gives reason for strategic places deeds to hold land and defend it.

 

Personally i think this would restimulate pvp and offer long term objectives, actual warfare and meaningful diplomacy. All of this is near on existent in wurm as their is little reason to build loyal and long standing relations.

 

Edited by JockII

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jock what about champions gaining life after x tasks. 

 

Kill 20 non kingdom no freedom prem accounts above 30 FS gives you a life.

 

Or add in, must claim as you suggest x area and that could add a life.  

 

Each champ starts with 1 life, and can gain a Max of three based on whatever you all deem works for forcing champs to be outside deed?

 

Not a perfect system just a thought to spark convo ^

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Brew said:

Jock what about champions gaining life after x tasks. 

 

Kill 20 non kingdom no freedom prem accounts above 30 FS gives you a life.

 

Or add in, must claim as you suggest x area and that could add a life.  

 

Each champ starts with 1 life, and can gain a Max of three based on whatever you all deem works for forcing champs to be outside deed?

 

Not a perfect system just a thought to spark convo ^

Would be interesting, it shouldn't be anything easily grindable or rushable.

 

I think 3 respawns (4 deaths) was a good system before and should be the start and max limit of storable lives.

 

Maybe when a champ perma kills another gods champion their god restores all their lives. It would make taking champ lives more valuable as time goes on for someone to try reset their lives. Something of that accord might work.

 

Nice call on the topic though.

 

Edit:

 

Also give the potential for people of lower lives to try risk their account to reset it all. Plus the added benefit of the stories that can come from it.

 

2 champs last life winner lives on fully restored, the other perishes away.

 

With limited champ slots based on land % and done by kingdom. Should remove the likly hood of someone making an alt champ just for the reset. Due to the sheer requirement of the combined and value of champions

 

 

Edited by JockII
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the moment the champ reward outstrips it's risk.

 

They're restrictions priests with stat boosts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 to permadeath, I see the allure.

 

The rebuttal about people hiding under a rock when they have 1 life left seems plausible too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Rathgar said:

+1 to permadeath, I see the allure.

 

The rebuttal about people hiding under a rock when they have 1 life left seems plausible too.

Covered this a little earlier but added it to op with aditional option see edit and below.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-6-10 at 9:40 PM, Iberis said:

I just have a feeling that this would add way more risk to those smaller PMK's. They won't want to champ up anyone and then the dominating kingdom will just run ahead even more.

 

Take DD vs TC on Chaos for example. The champs they have in DD are strong and if they did not have Threap and Wulfgar they would be at a major disadvantage. I have my doubts they would champ up if there was permadeath because there is too much risk when being the underdogs.

 

Also this would massively put off any new players to the game that might want to try this if a slot became available. It's something that to me only feels like veteren players would value rather then create a balance.

 

Sorry Jock -1

 

Edit: I can also see champs losing 2 lives and then logging off or sitting on deed for the rest of their time and not playing.

I was also of the most sucessful permadeath champs in the game and i used to solo pvp and stealth up at wl etc.  I was in bl and back then bl couldn't string a boat of people together.

 

All this small kingdoms won't stand a chance, they made a pmk they should remeber that a kingdom can and should be destoryable. Soften up the game anymore and you might aswell play a theme park game like wow or worse you can play on a pve server that has no value to anything, nothing a horrific economy and circular ever ending events that become stale.

 

Pvp with long term objective and kingdoms that can die offers a diverse and ever changing enviorment but you've heard this from me before.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I could get behind permadeath, but, I also haven't spent $500 plus on an account...

 

I just don't see this ever working with the way the game is now. But I definitely see where you're coming from. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Matholameu said:

I think I could get behind permadeath, but, I also haven't spent $500 plus on an account...

 

I just don't see this ever working with the way the game is now. But I definitely see where you're coming from. 

I myself bought doctorchaos with 2 lives and last years with only 1 death. Cost me 350e for him naked and then buying scale etc. Loved pvping on him

 

But this is also the issue their is no account or skill sinks so people endlessly get stronger at least with champ some lower end accounts can do very well in pvp.

 

I think this would also reshape pvp in yo meaningful conflicts over poor and meaningless skirmishes. Hota was a great idea but i find it to be a fail at creating long term pvp i would rather have had supply depo's with weekly addy and glimmer spread across the map to encourgage land capture.

 

Would take some balance ofc but i think supply deeds and war deeds would be great to see build up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, JockII said:

I myself bought doctorchaos with 2 lives and last years with only 1 death. Cost me 350e for him naked and then buying scale etc. Loved pvping on him

 

But this is also the issue their is no account or skill sinks so people endlessly get stronger at least with champ some lower end accounts can do very well in pvp.

 

I think this would also reshape pvp in yo meaningful conflicts over poor and meaningless skirmishes. Hota was a great idea but i find it to be a fail at creating long term pvp i would rather have had supply depo's with weekly addy and glimmer spread across the map to encourgage land capture.

 

Would take some balance ofc but i think supply deeds and war deeds would be great to see build up.

 

Yeah, I see what you mean. 
I think PVP could use some major overhaul and the HotA should be moved or rotate positions. The NW of the map is useless. 
I just don't know if permadeath is the solution though. 

Perhaps some major skill loss if you die while champed, none if you last the whole 6 months. But not permadeath. 
And I definitely like the idea of dumps to fight over.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about what could improve PVP, my conclusion, I have no ###### idea. So trying to not complain anymore. (Not saying you were, you offered an idea, just saying.) 
 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Matholameu said:

 

Yeah, I see what you mean. 
I think PVP could use some major overhaul and the HotA should be moved or rotate positions. The NW of the map is useless. 
I just don't know if permadeath is the solution though. 

Perhaps some major skill loss if you die while champed, none if you last the whole 6 months. But not permadeath. 
And I definitely like the idea of dumps to fight over.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about what could improve PVP, my conclusion, I have no ###### idea. So trying to not complain anymore. (Not saying you were, you offered an idea, just saying.) 
 

I enjoy a good back and forth discussion to find a good middle ground.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, JockII said:

I enjoy a good back and forth discussion to find a good middle ground.

I hear ya. Wish I had more to add the convo. 
Once work's over I'll make a better response. Got a couple ideas kicking around. 

Every time I try to think about PVP-fixes in a big picture way I just get overwhelmed. lol 
I do not envy the devs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Matholameu said:

 

I do not envy the devs.

Mechanical and level design is what i do as part of the games i build a s currently building.

 

Alot of people see many changes as a knee jerk reaction or a bad idea as they can't see the aim or thought process behind it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this