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Wurmhole

A New Player Experience

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Here is a chat log from CA Help.  First off, the folks in CA were great.  I'm not knocking anything they did.  Just wanted people to see what someone new to the game is likely to go through.  It it good, because the new player experience weeds out those that aren't cut out for the full Wurm life right away, or is it bad, because new people get discouraged too quickly, before they have a chance to fall in love with Wurm?  After the exchange I tried PMing the player to offer services as a personal guide, to ease him through some of the challenges, but he was logged out.  I suspect never to return.

 

You decide (Names edited to avoid criticism of helpers and the new player).

 

[10:51:18] <NewGuy> (Xan) how do i make a baking stone?
[10:51:24] <Helper1> (Ind) stone chisel on marble shards
[10:51:27] <Helper2> (Xan) Use a chisel on a marble shard
[10:51:36] <Helper4> (Rel) hit 'h' and type 'baking stone' the wiki lists it there as well
[10:51:38] <NewGuy> (Xan) so where on earth must i get marble shards....
[10:51:53] <Helper2> (Xan) Or press N and type baking stone to see the recipe list
[10:51:55] <Helper1> (Ind) somewhere in a mine
[10:51:59] <Helper4> (Rel) you mine them from underground
[10:52:04] <NewGuy> (Xan) i need to make bread. im hungry af
[10:52:04] <Helper2> (Xan) You need to mine a marble vein, which are located in caves
[10:52:28] <Helper3> (Ind) you can also make simple meals with meat+veggie in a fry pan
[10:52:50] <Helper2> (Xan) Or breakfast, using a pottery bowl with Anything in it (except fish/fish filets)
[10:53:20] <NewGuy> (Xan) does fish count for the simple meal
[10:54:05] <Helper2> (Xan) You can make a meal out of fish. Using a single fish or fileted fish + 1 veggy
[10:54:23] <NewGuy> (Xan) but its probably gonna give me 1% food
[10:55:00] <Helper2> (Xan) At low QL, yes, that is true. The other option would be to purchase food from someone, and pick it up at a mailbox
[10:55:01] <Helper1> (Ind) try using a larger veggie, like pumpkin or cabbage if you can
[10:55:16] <Helper3> (Ind) when your cooking is low, you need to eat a lot
[10:55:27] <Helper3> (Ind) when you cooking gets up high, it will take only half of a meal
[10:57:25] <NewGuy> (Xan) im supposed to be building a house but im too hungry to do that...
[10:57:52] <Helper2> (Xan) If your nutrition is good, you can wait until your food bar hits approx 7%, and it will fast, and fill back up
[10:59:40] <NewGuy> (Xan) why do so little ppl play this game? seems interesting
[11:00:22] <Helper4> (Rel) not quite sure thats a question that has a distinct answer :P
[11:01:07] <Helper5> (Xan) And if it has an answer it won't be a topic for this channel :) Tends to lead to arguments :)
[11:01:09] <NewGuy> (Xan) im asking why are there only 400 ppl when there could be over 1k? it seems like a very nice game... does it become bad?
[11:01:26] <Helper4> (Rel) not at all
[11:01:29] <NewGuy> (Xan) so will u ban me because i asked that question?
[11:01:32] <Helper4> (Rel) its just a very niche game is all really
[11:02:21] <Helper6> (Xan) dif time zones too.
[11:02:30] <Helper4> (Rel) ban you? not at all; all he means is that its likely something for another channel like gl freedom or freedom
[11:02:37] <Helper4> (Rel) as this channel is more for game mechanics related questions instead
[11:03:16] <NewGuy> (Xan) ok so by the time i spent fishing and foraging. i lost more food than i gained from the finished product
[11:03:21] <Helper5> (Xan) Indeed, no need to even think about it
[11:03:23] <NewGuy> (Xan) thats horrible
[11:03:46] <Helper4> (Rel) itll get better i promise
[11:04:13] <NewGuy> (Xan) ok long? doesnt even seem like im gaining cooking skill :\
[11:04:46] <NewGuy> (Xan) how long*?
[11:05:03] <Helper4> well grinding cooking, youd be in the ballpark of hundreds of meals to gain sufficient skill really
[11:06:18] <NewGuy> (Xan) wait maybe its because im using a camp fire to cook? could that be why]
[11:06:41] <Helper7> (Ind) no, it's mostly skill in the beginning
[11:06:53] <Helper2> (Xan) campfires are slightly higher difficulty than an oven, but it shouldn't affect it substantially at the moment
[11:07:00] <Helper7> (Ind) once you get to around 30 feeding yourself will be a lot easier
[11:07:36] <NewGuy> (Xan) its finally making sense why there's only 400 ppl playing this...
[11:08:08] <Helper2> (Xan) It really does get better with skill, and doesn't take very long to level up if you have the materials
[11:09:04] <Helper3> (Ind) for NewGuy... that is because this is Minecraft for adults... takes patience to play wurm...
[11:09:18] <Helper3> (Ind) wurm is intentionally hard and challenging...

 

 

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Some way to pair off a helper with someone who has a question maybe?

Sort of like a ticket system..so you don't have 5 people rushing to help the same person. Everyone is trying to help, but too many helpers makes it confusing.

 

Or just restrict helping to CAs and 'hire' more CAs?

 

Not great solutions, but I notice it a lot too when I ask a question in CA Help, I get multiple responses..sometimes conflicting...then would-be helpers ending up in a discussion about something unrelated etc.

Also when multiple people have questions at the same time, sometimes it is confusing as to who is answering who.

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lol i was here for that. But this is an issue is one that can't be fixed unless wurm becomes a completely different game. Judging by the way this person behaves, he wants a game to enjoy, not to just work in. Nobody can enjoy sitting for hours clicking something over and over again to get materials and skill, then FINALLY performing their tasks. He would probably be happy to craft a fish net and automatically get seafood over time while he works on other tasks. Press mine once and continously work until the cave tile is done without looking at stamina. The beginning of wurm is much like the ending of wurm, only with bigger monsters, bigger buildings, better tools, and less new things to do. 

 

[11:09:04] <Helper3> (Ind) for NewGuy... that is because this is Minecraft for adults... takes patience to play wurm...
[11:09:18] <Helper3> (Ind) wurm is intentionally hard and challenging...

 

^Idk who said this, but if they had meant it, they don't know what a hard and challenging game is. when you have a 6% chance to craft something and you press 1 button over and over again... its not a challenge.

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Also, his time in this game was gonna be hell to begin with because he went to Xanadu to start the game. An area where its not that easy to find an open mine to leech materials from

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I think the system overall needs a good evaluation, that's all I'll say because this is a very touchy subject to discuss. Personally I don't see a quick fix either to help new players get interested in the game. This game is very hard for someone new usually, it takes a long time to understand everything, most don't want to learn and move on to WU or something else.

 

One amazing tutorial can only do so much to help them. I used to play a game where the game would automatically match you with a mentor that you could ask for help at any time, it was a lot more personal and felt better than a giant help channel that feels overwhelming for a new person. I'm not sure this game has the means to do something like that, it would be nice though. A lot of games have a similar system like this FFXIV comes to mind with the mentor system and the new/returner chat.

 

 Some people really just want to be spoon fed and no matter what you say they'll end up leaving because its to hard or slow for them. Most if not all new generations of gamers are super lazy, and want to play games that are fast paced and high octane. They cannot be bothered to go dig for a month, that's like "work" for them. Only by changing the entirety of the game or creating a new type of game system will this game ever get those types of players. I have some ideas I'll post below to change or create a game system to get some of those players. 

 

I'm not for making the game easy for someone that wants instant gratification. However some changes could be made for WO, I like to think of them as QoL. Things like baking stones, I don't see why they cannot be made out of normal stone. This topic about them really comes up often it seems, same goes for mortar pestle.

 

 

So how do you get those fast paced players into Wurm? Is it worth it?

You could create a system sort of like Rust, maybe change epic or do something like the challenge map. Every week the game gets a full map reset, but everything is super fast, skills are balanced and unable to be raised. Item caches spawn throughout the map and are able to be captured. Building just takes materials and is basically instant. So the idea is fast paced pvp, faster then challenge even. I think this game has potential for something like this but could do with a better combat system first, challenge was a good experiment for something else. People will start playing that high end game play and some might try the slow paced version that is WO. I vote kill epic move those players to chaos/freedom and replace it with that. This idea is one of many but it would be a quick solution for player retention. 

 

Thanks

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This has been stewing around in my brain and had some thoughts to make it better for the next NewGuy:

 

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If I remember right, a new character can get free, 50 nutrition food from an NPC at the starter town for as long as his newbie buffs are on. I think that would solve the newguy's problem for at least a few days and give him a chance to try some other things. Too bad most of us have forgotten about our noob days in Wurm.

 

Edited by Erlindur
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quite true.  If really new, they should remember that from tutorial, which clearly explains it.  But if they left the starter town...  I know my first day, I lost the starter town really quickly.

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but people don't usually live near the starter towns if they are new, they would look for fresh land. Who wants to walk for 20-30 mins or even longer to get food, then 20-30 mins to run back. who wants to waste about an hour on food?

Also Niki is really spot on with the issue of wurm. Im pretty sure most people who play wurm lacks something to do, and "works" in wurm. The fast paced option is one solution to attract new people (the kind that go around saying "lol get rekt nub") but theres also the players who want the satisfaction of playing a game while getting stuff done in real life. Constantly clicking makes it slightly difficult to multi-task, I often do it while doing homework and waste sleep bonus not paying full attention. If wurm was just click and go, It would be nice. Many of the new players that have joined my deed have left and said at one point that waiting for stamina was boring.

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When I had my first Inde deed, I collected newbies as villagers, so I used to scout the help channel for recruitment purposes. This is one guy I would never contact with the intent of recruiting him. There is just no way that he could be a valuable addition to the game, he would (IMHO) become an annoyance to anyone he came into contact with.

 

What I am trying to say is, Wurm is and stays a difficult game, and it takes a certain mindset to enjoy it. It can't be changed. And we shouldn't change it, or ourselves, to accomodate types of players that are way off the target.

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this does point out some flaws with wurm though. I mean he practically has no chance to like the game, because he is confronted with how it's all gonna be grinding, which yes, it is, but it's not the grinding that people necessary love about wurm, it's everything around. The freedom, the community and that one can actually take pride in their accomplishments, since it's not just done with a mouseclick.
In every MMO i know, if you would tell a player about how in the future it would become better, if they just train their skill, it is not close enough and graspable in the present to see "why" he would even do that?
When even just pointing out that he can use the starter town newbie thing to get food or even ask players to help him could have been good opportunity to show him how much wurm lives on the community aspect, which for me, is what kept me for a long time going with wurm. 

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12 hours ago, Yiraia said:

[11:09:04] <Helper3> (Ind) for NewGuy... that is because this is Minecraft for adults... takes patience to play wurm...
[11:09:18] <Helper3> (Ind) wurm is intentionally hard and challenging...

 

^Idk who said this, but if they had meant it, they don't know what a hard and challenging game is. when you have a 6% chance to craft something and you press 1 button over and over again... its not a challenge.


The patience and determination required, to achieve many things in wurm online, can be a challenge. 
just because something is `mathematically inevitable` doesn't mean it's un-challenging.  
Hell, if something isn't `mathematically inevitable`, but u know you can do it.. that is a challenge.. it's also an inevitability. unproven but known. 
Whether you are challenging your skill or your patience or your mental constitution, a challenge is a challenge.

Nice paste Wurmhole, i hope it gives our devs food for thought.

Edited by Steveleeb
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When I was a complete noob I had a few great players around - their experience ranging from limited to extensive who helped me a lot getting into speed with Wurm. I can imagine a player on their very own and with the non-personal CA help chat at his in game help may not find the same hooks into the game.

I know there were and are player initiatives to pick up new players and help them through the first weeks but this way a lot of new players can just fall through the "social net".

I'm thinking about if a system on new player mentoring which encourages more experienced players to mentor new players could work out or not.

It would mean

plan a.) the successful mentors could get some reward like permium time etc. for their activities (maybe after successful recruits like enterprises reward their employees for successfully recruiting new workforce after a probation period)

plan b.) like Uber, mentors can register themselves as such and new players/mentors should rate each other. Rewards go out based on ratings and retention on new players been interacted with.

 

I know both systems might be quite cheesy and target for abusers if rewards are too desirable, this is party why I have no "system architectures" to share.

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You see this all the time, new player asks about something because they need something.

But turns out they need something else to get what they want....

 

All the new player wanted really, was to keep building their house....

 

What if there was a no hunger period for new players?

Maybe the pottery bowl and how to use it can be included in the tutorial, if it's not already (been a long time).

 

 

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I'm not sure but maybe we have something so changed that it becomes broken for new players. For my first year in game I was almost exclusively fed myself with the simple pumpkin+meat meal. It was lousy on nutrition but I never had a problem filling my food bar. I tried the same meal with an alt and ate the ql1 meal. The food bar barely moved after finishing the whole meal.

Maybe the cooking update chanced stuff in a way that makes it impossible for a new player to feed himself. Or maybe there is some other very low ql food a newbie can make and at least fill the food bar. If there is such a food then it would be nice to have him prepare it in the tutorial and all people in CA_Help know about it.

 

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When I first started.. I had hard time figuring wt* all them chat windows are for... local? wtf.. why not 'area'/etc(have to ask in ca-help or check wiki to see that local is xx tiles around you.. and only the people in that area can see what you type in *local*:huh:

✔ O.k.. I learned something..:huh:

✔ CA Help - why CA?:rolleyes: -aha.... after reading in wiki or asking there wt.. CA stands for..  ok..(could have just been help.. and still ask the questions.. but not bother the minds for not so important things from the start.. anyway)

Than there's freedom and gl-freedom:rolleyes:.. wiki/ca help again..to figure them..

From the start.. player's forced to solve a few mysteries.

(back than there was no trade channel, but that's self-explanatory anyway..)

 

What I learned from my tutorial back than.. was .. look - DO NOT TOUCH!

O.k.. I still learned something("mainly" saw items that I never could see, interact or decorate with... as presented in the tutorial:lol::lol::lol:

"definitely not confusing":mellow::mellow:

 

One of the first things I did .. was to ruin another noob's farm field.. randomly placed a few tiles after the look-no-touchy land of spawn town..

My starting 1 farming skil gave me .. low ql 1x crop which demotivated me from ruining any more of that(3-4 tiles in total)...

Terribly low skill - bad to use for some reason.. note taken✔

 

Ofc.. it's an mmo.. and I met a pheasant.. I had to kill it... well.. sh** gone wrong... I dropped to 10% hp.. and spent more than half an hour looking for cotton, repeatedly.. bandaging, failing, loosing parts of it.. etc...(great times..) learned something - do not **** with the MMA pheasants ✔NOTE TAKEN:wacko:

 

Digging.. ofc.. tried that.. boring, tiles, borders, slopes, ez.. low skill to start with.. have to grind to make any use of it.. -  f* that

✔ learned something - I already hate one skill:):):) (ofc.. grinded some to level a place for a house and to get better ql clay, just that:angry:)

 

Clay!<_< Why is this not around every spawn town.. literally outside of the town.. so noobs could play with it... WHY?

Starting bowl could not hold any water.. leather at first is hard af.. to get... for a waterskin; clay-jars are epic as water containers when traeveling.

 

As for food.. I figured the foraging.. and that shrooms/pumpkins are amazing food source, nutritious ... lol not really.. but what noob needs nutrition?(probably every.. if effects are shown to them in the first 24hours with free full 100% nutrition from the npc in town.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

(You'd think that new player could imagine the benefits of something later ingame.. but in reality.. that 'never happens', let them learn as you show them... they will notice how their work is slower and they efficiency is in times worse than it was from the start.. with beverages npc intown..)

 

People quitting because of cooking? Can't blame any of them.. :wacko:I have several 90 skills and I do not want to do anything complex like that, and I even had 89.something hfc way before the cooking patch, and I never grinded to prepare for it.(it was for the perks of the old system)

I'm just saying.. I know my way around.. and I do not want to deal with this.<_<

 

Hopefully .. new tutorial's with audio but I doubt that.. players are so lazy, days of book games are 'over', having to read about things is why people skip tutorial/tips and return later to just catch up on the things they need - only when they need it.:unsure:

 

The other things that makes many to leave the game.. is probably starting belt.. ql20.. it's ~"impossible" to make any use of something when you need 4-5 items to work/improve something. Default setup can not even utilize a 'perfect belt' even if somebody just enters the game and buys a ql90/rare.. cant use the 10 slots without going trough the settings..

No keybinds for different belt presets either... saving the belt presets 'often'/sometimes.. leads to overriding existing presets because of misclicks:wacko:

And basic actions or fighting keybind settings... requiring more playing with the settings window....(some of this is promised to be solved for next ui.. like default keybinds for some actions)

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20 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

[10:51:18] <NewGuy> (Xan) how do i make a baking stone?

[10:52:04] <NewGuy> (Xan) i need to make bread. im hungry af
And why does he need to make bread?  He was given a pottery bowl for free in his inventory, correct?  Where did he get the idea his only option was bread?


[10:53:20] <NewGuy> (Xan) does fish count for the simple meal

[10:54:23] <NewGuy> (Xan) but its probably gonna give me 1% food
Yes, NewGuy is new to the game and complaining his output is that of a new player.  Wurm does not have microwaves, shocking. 

[10:57:25] <NewGuy> (Xan) im supposed to be building a house but im too hungry to do that...
Why?  Do new players not get a new player tent anymore?  Who said he was "supposed" to be building a house?  Too hungry to do that... is he roleplaying here?


[10:59:40] <NewGuy> (Xan) why do so little ppl play this game? seems interesting

[11:01:09] <NewGuy> (Xan) im asking why are there only 400 ppl when there could be over 1k? it seems like a very nice game... does it become bad?

[11:01:29] <NewGuy> (Xan) so will u ban me because i asked that question?
Seems a very strange leap to conclude that.  I think I'd just say "woops, sorry."  Why would anyone assume they'll just be banned?  Anyone else find that odd?  Makes me wonder if NewGuy's got some chip on his shoulder about management or something... but he's new right?


[11:03:16] <NewGuy> (Xan) ok so by the time i spent fishing and foraging. i lost more food than i gained from the finished product
He asked about fish at [10:53:20] as in 10 minutes ago.  So he's got his fish, done his foraging in that time, and cooked his meal in an iron frying pan but doesn't know about veins?

No, not quite sure I believe that... but let's say he's extrapolating?  New players don't start with a fishing pole do they?  Smells fishy to me (sorry, I'm here all week)


[11:03:23] <NewGuy> (Xan) thats horrible
It's also not the ideal way to go about things.  There are so many options, particularly using his handy pottery bowl he was given.

 

[11:04:13] <NewGuy> (Xan) ok long? doesnt even seem like im gaining cooking skill :\

Instant gratification is not Wurm.  Plenty of games for that, tons upon tons.  Cooking has more ways to skill up now than ever.


[11:06:18] <NewGuy> (Xan) wait maybe its because im using a camp fire to cook? could that be why]

[11:07:36] <NewGuy> (Xan) its finally making sense why there's only 400 ppl playing this...

Six minutes since he said it seems like a very nice, interesting game and wondered if it "becomes bad."

 

I would ask NewGuy how he came upon Wurm, and what he thought he was walking into.

Did he see it as a survival game?

Did he see it as a PvP game?

 

I think the trouble NewGuy ran into is either:

  1. He's not a new player at all, but a fake new player with some kind of burr where the sun don't shine about the new cooking system... Or
  2. He really is a new player who was given wrong / poor information about what Wurm is and what the premise behind it is.

I've played and enjoyed games in which players start with just a loin cloth.  That's it.  No free bowl, no sword, no comfy tent ffs... However, I knew what the game was before hopping in, for the most part.  In other games, I've hopped in being told I could stay PvE only to learn that was not true.  That's annoying, which is why I'd love to know NewGuy's origin story.

 

What review(s) did NewGuy read or watch?  Clearly didn't come from Steam or he'd be in WU.  I don't think Wurm is listed in MMORPG site... What brought him here, assuming he is genuinely new?  Is the information he found before joining the game an accurate portrayal of what to expect?

As a new player, I not only botanized and foraged for my food, but ran around scavenging for any meat discarded by other players.  My first pottery jar allowing me to have some water inland was like GOLD to me.  No struggle = boring, imho.

 

@TpikolSome of the help provided perhaps lacked focus.  I probably wouldn't advise a meal to a new player, but would guide them towards stews... nonetheless, there is a lot of positive engagement right there.  People genuinely want and try to help.  That is not as common as one would hope in games these days.

Perhaps some regularly scheduled, short training sessions offered by staff on discord, or a document put together helpers can read.  A lot of people want to help, that's the take-away here, to me.

 

Perhaps a sub-forum self-appointed helpers can use to trade notes, tips, logs of particular sessions and how would you handle that? type feedback so those interested can improve.  Moderated and curated by assigned volunteer staff member to pick out the best practices and grow a stickied document at the top of that forum.

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22 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

[11:09:04] <Helper3> (Ind) for NewGuy... that is because this is Minecraft for adults... takes patience to play wurm...

 

This was a CA?

 

 

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What's to stop someone (all of you) from going to meet that new player in xan if you can and give them 2-5 meals of 10-30 ql?

 

Instead of mentoring and spending rewards on people to do what they could do already?  It would take you an hour to go find that player if you're playing wurm for a long time, and they could of kept working on the house knowing you are en route?

 

You could of easily made a new trading partner, friend or life long wurm player.  I wouldn't count out everyone as people can change. For the better if you put in some work to show them they can.

 

Brew

Edited by Brew
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16 minutes ago, Brew said:

What's to stop someone (all of you) from going to meet that new player in xan if you can and give them 2-5 meals of 10-30 ql?

 

Instead of mentoring and spending rewards on people to do what they could do already?  It would take you an hour to go find that player if you're playing wurm for a long time, and they could of kept working on the house knowing you are en route?

 

You could of easily made a new trading partner, friend or life long wurm player.  I wouldn't count out everyone as people can change. For the better if you put in some work to show them they can.

 

Brew

unless this has changed since i stopped playing,the reason they see the (Xan) next to the newguy name its because they are not on that server.so sailing from somewhere else all the way to inland xanadu can take much much more than 1 hour,which is one of the many reasons why having servers the size of xanadu was a bad idea in the first place. and thank god the server couldnt handle the original size they wanted.

Edited by Tpikol

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11 minutes ago, Brew said:

What's to stop someone (all of you) from going to meet that new player in xan if you can and give them 2-5 meals of 10-30 ql?

 

Instead of mentoring and spending rewards on people to do what they could do already?  It would take you an hour to go find that player if you're playing wurm for a long time, and they could of kept working on the house knowing you are en route?

 

You could of easily made a new trading partner, friend or life long wurm player.  I wouldn't count out everyone as people can change. For the better if you put in some work to show them they can.

 

Brew

Lol not to be mean but this person lives on Xanadu... who wants to waste that much effort on a new player. I used to try my best at keeping new players and everything failed. I specifically even tried helping this guy. I pmed him "Hey, need marble shards ;)" and he didn't respond to me. After 30 mins i realized he is new and would require to find a mailbox because he can't make himself one without a priest. He heard the future of the game and decided the game wasn't his type.

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28 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

 

This was a CA?

 

 

not official CA.  Just one of us regular folks giving advice in CA channel.

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When I started, I had the same hunger issue. My friend had told me to use a pan and meat plus veggies, so thats what I did. First order of business was a farm. I was lucky I had some potatoes I found in an abandoned bsb, so I used that plus the meat of a couple butchered mobs.

 

It was rough, I wont deny it, but I got it done. It did the job. In about a week of feeding myself I had nearly 15 hfc, and the meals were quite decent. By then I had also discovered the pottery bowl so I was making breakfasts.

 

It is not as difficult to feed yourself as people put it. You can kill cows, pigs and horses with a brand new account, even wolves. You can forage and botanize and end up with enough veggies in about 20-30 minutes. The issue is not that you cant feed yourself. The issue is you may not know how to. That is the problem the new players face.

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Newbs start with a bowl... easiest thing.. forage/botanize for some herbs.. any 2 cooking herbs = casserole, eZ

As for meat.. when I started.. there was either no armor or it was ql20.. definitely ql5-10 weapon/shield.. pretty useless vs a wolf.. usually rng bags you... and could try again with a full hp bar.. \o/, fishing is easy.. but low ql cotton/spindle/ct skill = low ql string.. low wc/carp/... = low ql wooden hooks fishing rods wont last long.. but are easy enough to make.. if you manage to find 1-2 cotton.

 

But that's old story.. new starting gear is decent enough to maybe kill a wolf/bear/spider and survive with half hp... probably:o

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Not bears, but you will do in wolves, wild cats, and other simple beasts. I recently did it with my wife's account.

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