Retrograde

Highway Protection system

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Hi Everyone,

 

This thread is for giving a brief overview of the upcoming highway system, which may take some time to properly understand.

 

The new highway system on the surface is quite simple, two items are used to protect tiles, catseyes and waystones.

 

Catseyes form the backbone of the links, with waystones forming the junctions and crossroads.

 

When placed and linked to valid markers, paved tiles are protected from being destroyed. They operate on roads, bridges, houses, and underground. 

 

This system is aimed at replacing the freedom highway rules requiring GM permission to make any road modification. This does not mean that there will be no monitoring of them, and wanton destruction of highway could include penalties as standard.

 

For the more technical minded, we have a document listing the full details available here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1enAogVQhXsDvKrOT0DCna5zWh-z4RCsN9ABxMnDSmjw/edit?usp=sharing

 

As it is a work in progress, things may change before going live, or be added or removed, so please do remember to check it when it goes live too.

 

This system is currently on the test server, if you have questions feel free to jump on and check them out!

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A Catseye is a fairly simple item to make using a shard and chisel to create a blind catseye, and completed with an eye. They form the backbone of the highway system.

 

The Catseye may have been "a fairly simple item to make" if it were not for the *eye* requirement. Although it has not been specified as exactly what this "eye" would be I am assuming it is an animals eye. That being the case in order to make these Catseye's many animals must be butchered in order to collect enough for highways of any distance. Not every animal has "eyes" when butchered anyway, so this further restricts their availability. The least I would suggest in light of this is to put "eyes" into the butchered list of all animals with also a 100% success rate to obtain one upon butchering the animal.

 

A fine mess these "eyes" have created to being necessary to create this "fairly simple item to make". This does not strike me as "simplicity" but of course in comparison to creating concrete it might almost fit the word.

 

Another thing that puzzles me is how these Catseye's actually protect highways if they can be *bashed* to destroy them, presumably by anyone. Would it not be better to just have them *secured* to the ground by the individual player? Then if they later want to change the highway that they have created they can "simply" pick them up. I see no reason to allow anyone else to *bash* them if this *secured* feature is added to them. If there is some *valid* reason for another person to remove them they could just contact a GM to have this done since it would be a rare occurrence anyway.

 

As for the Waystones, requiring a compass is even worse since very few players have the required skill to create them. Apparently the use of Waystones can be avoided the vast majority of the time and even when they might be of use at a deed terminus, yea this is what I would do, that being to avoid using them because of the compass requirement.

 

Just some things that come to mind from reading the *Highway Documentation*, the most important being that if anyone can *bash* destroy these Catseye's, how are they "protecting" highways? Strange indeed, all these Eyes watching, even if they are only Cats; but then again they can be any Eyes, so they are not (Cats).

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

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Posted (edited)

The fact that cat's eyes would be offset to the left or right really bothers me for 3 lane highways, works fine for 2 lane roads sure but most highways I've seen have been 3 wide. Would it be possible to have them planted in the centre of a tile also like the "move to centre" command. Then we would have two ways to align the cat's eyes fitting for both dual lane and triple lane highways.

 

Surely the code could be made to work for both methods? Otherwise I fear it's gonna look terrible on our 3 lane highways.

 

For your diagonal road examples I would call those single tile diagonal and double tile not double and triple or one and a half and two and a half which would make the cat's eyes offset in the 2.5 lane example also looking terrible. Imagine given your example a 3.5 lane diagonal highway, if the cat's eyes were able to be planted centre tile that would work symmetrically.

 

Edited by Fraeya

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Posted (edited)

In my personal view 3 lanes are usually terrible (and needless) except on flattish terrain. But that is me and how we are different :)

I'm fine being the requirements to make highways high, I was quite afraid being that too easy - I envisioned meaningless highways everywhere... just from the human nature of "let's make something that will be there forever and bear my mark". I suppose any ql compass would work, and it is good to see another reason to bring the poor pottery skill out into the light. Animal eyes are really riskless to gather from a lot of animals - and there is usually ... 2 of them in each. I personally like the pun in the cat's eye recipe (I hope not only wildcats will qualify...).

Edited by Jaz
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3 minutes ago, Jaz said:

In my personal view 3 lanes are usually terrible (and needless) except on flattish terrain. But that is me and how we are different :)

I typically use 3 lane highways as they interface better with doorways and arches. Until we get a 2 wide doorway I'll probably continue to do so, but the double tile archways help a lot in this respect and are a step in the right direction.

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To be honest I quite never have a highway ending in my door, I like some privacy in my home :P (sorry couldn't stand to ....)

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I agree with Ayes and Fraeya - Odd number of lanes makes the offset catseye look odd.  In Wurm we want perfection.  If I made a 3 lane highway, I would not plant catseyes, just because of that.  Possibly staggering them in a zigzag configuration for 3 lane roads?

 

Also, like Ayes says, make eyes harvest-able from nearly every critter.  Rather than adding a compass to the waystone, what about just a sundial or pointing arrow, out of iron?

 

I haven't looked on Test yes, but is this glow going to be another performance reduction for our clients?  Probably not a big deal if the unstable client get's tuned up to be really usable.

 

WHy do catseyes need to be every tile.  Seems they could be 2 tiles apart and provide full coverage, except for diagonal roads.  WOuld save resources and time on straight roads though.

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How many tiles of protected highways does one server need ?

 

Will there be a cap on the number of tiles of protected highways like animal spawns ?

 

Just wondering because over the years we have seen a few players try to push things to the extreme :)

 

 

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How much of a performance impact is this going to have on xanadu? I can imagine an entire server-wide highway system and all the other little roads people make and want to protect is going to add a lot more tile calculations to the server workload. Like Wurmhole mentioned perhaps reduce the amount of these that are needed?

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I imagine there are literally thousands of eye balls hanging around in FSB's since the times people started hoarding animal parts, if you lack the eyes a short hunting trip will remedy the situation. A compass being part of the requirement for a way point is fair enough, these things are not meant to be spewed out by the thousands and again I am sure any compass will do, my first dioptra I ever made I sacrificed my noob compass for its construction, which was a blessing as I ended up getting a compass later on that actually worked.

 

If someone lacks the skills to make a compass they can always make an alt and rob it of its compass or just do what everyone else does and buy one on the open market, but seriously even if you are a noobie making a compass is not impossible and any low skilled player can make one of these I did it once.

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59 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

Possibly staggering them in a zigzag configuration for 3 lane roads?

 

I think this would solve that problem and satisfy the ocd in you.

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This update is why the eye count of a lot of things was increased a while ago! 

 

Server load is of course another factor, but should not be too heavy, they just protect tiles and check routes upon request, not constant calculations 

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Reduced decay for structures on a highway seems like it could be used to maliciously prevent deed expansion and/or make areas near highways undeedable.  Such activity is of course possible now but no need to make it worse.

 

 

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Good documentation. What was used for images?

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Retrograde said:

This update is why the eye count of a lot of things was increased a while ago!

 

Hmmm, never noticed since I rarely go out hunting anything, butcher what I kill and pickup weird eyeballs. Guess I will have to start doing these things then, now that I am aware that there is this upcoming use for animal eyeballs. Good to know that I don't have to kill the cute kitty like creatures in Wurm to gather them.

 

Still, why not just have these Catseye's be *securable* by those who place them and then make them immune to others bashing them away whenever anyone feels like it. Just makes more work for those who have placed them in the first place either way if bashing is necessary to remove.

 

Added: Hey, why not call this a Creature Feature since eyeballs are required!

 

=Ayes=

Edited by Ayes
added nonsense

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I see it as a good incentive to thin the overcrowding popullation of bulls and cows... I do also like the structure decay reduction it is quite a tedium to keep the bridge support buildings up to shape out in the wilderness.

I don't see it as an issue for malicious deeding prevention - stone structures stand for years and now wooden ones fit the same with the easier repair.

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13 hours ago, Ayes said:

The Catseye may have been "a fairly simple item to make" if it were not for the *eye* requirement.

Eyes are quite easy to get.. from domesticated farm animals. As long you do not need certain weight.. I think 1 eye turns to 2 or 4 when put in fsb.
I'd admit that it's kind of disgusting to put eyes on the road.. but that might be the way or wurm people, I'm not judging.. just uhh..:huh:

Certainly not hard to get, I did not have a massive farm with animals or hunt more than 1-2times a month, not every month.

9b3f06472f684b2081beb17c4805c118.png


 

13 hours ago, Ayes said:

Another thing that puzzles me is how these Catseye's actually protect highways if they can be *bashed* to destroy them, presumably by anyone. Would it not be better to just have them *secured* to the ground by the individual player? Then if they later want to change the highway that they have created they can "simply" pick them up. I see no reason to allow anyone else to *bash* them if this *secured* feature is added to them. If there is some *valid* reason for another person to remove them they could just contact a GM to have this done since it would be a rare occurrence anyway.

What happens when that player moves to another server? Call him/her maybe? Or takes a vacation, quits, etc.. you're left to call a gm to fix it for you.

 

13 hours ago, Ayes said:

As for the Waystones, requiring a compass is even worse since very few players have the required skill to create them. Apparently the use of Waystones can be avoided the vast majority of the time and even when they might be of use at a deed terminus, yea this is what I would do, that being to avoid using them because of the compass requirement.

 

Just some things that come to mind from reading the *Highway Documentation*, the most important being that if anyone can *bash* destroy these Catseye's, how are they "protecting" highways? Strange indeed, all these Eyes watching, even if they are only Cats; but then again they can be any Eyes, so they are not (Cats).

Anybody's able to make a compass.. if olive oil's rare well.. one way to stimulate the market or give you the reason to skill up forestry/beverages/pottery/blacksmithing  before next harvest. Game's about skill and the higher your skills are the easier it is to make things, with less fails.. you can make a compass at level 1.. maybe.. with 10-20 miscellaneous-items skill for sure you can(with some fails ofc(get gud nub;)))


But they are...

Sure you said you've been playing wu for a while.. might have missed the other staff post about this upcoming change and this link. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat's_eye_(road)

 

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6 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Eyes are quite easy to get..

Looks to me like you didn't gather all those 2,724 eyeballs since it was explained they would be necessary to create Catseye's. You are a hoarder of them. Good for you since that's your thing but for *probably* most other players (myself included) they are not (obsessed gathers of odd butchered animal parts) .

 

Yea, GM's can remove secured (planted) Catseye's if they approve it's necessary. I already addressed that point.

 

9 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Anybody's able to make a compass

"Anybody" is able to make *anything* if they invest enough time over time into it. There are a number of skills required with timed resource gathering to accomplish this. There is the problem. Not too hard to figure out.

 

Yep, I play both WO and WU but I did not miss this update about Catseye's that actually never did specify that butchered animal eyes would be the required "eye" part to create them. The reference was vague and left up to others to *guess* that yea that's what they were referring to. Fortunately for yourself you just happened to be a hoarder of this formerly relatively useless butchered animal part, as evidenced by the number of them stored in your bin.

 

Seems I am feeling just as argumentative as you today, eh? *shrugs*

 

=Ayes=

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Posted (edited)

I did gather them on my own, without a massive farm.. go check somebody with a big horse/sheep/cow farm.. you'll have trouble accepting reality if you think I have many eyes.

 

Idea's probably to put the power into player's hands and to require less attention from the gms.. while still securing the roads somehow... as it is... anyone could remodel anything freely.. with the eventual gm slap later if the main roads are messed.

 

Compasses are easy to make.. and nearly everyone have some in fsb.., you only need waystones when you create branches to the main roads, compass ql doesnt matter, as long difficulty to create/finish the waystone is LOW.. I see no problem, you barely need any skill to make random low ql compass. And it's not like you need to use the new system, it's just to protect it from noob messing with it once they get enough skills for that.

 

It's a fully functional road anyway(with or w/o the catseyes/waystones), why all lthe fuss.

 

--edit

57 minutes ago, Fraeya said:

I think you'll Finnnd arguing with Ayes about eyes is not seeing the point.

I'm just saying that they are not rare to get, you just need certain animals(domesticated type often gives eye/s when butchered)

I did say that it's 'weird' putting actual eyes on the roads.. but hey.. it's a game and plenty of weirder things are a thing... so nvm

 

I did not read the document at all to be honest.. but I do not see the reason to do this instantly, unless somebody wants to make their local highway 'official' which does nothing but makes it harder to destroy/modify. I mean.. there's no speed boost or other bonuses, makes it no different than current highways, other than complicating it with more rules:huh:

Edited by Finnn

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I think you'll Finnnd arguing with Ayes about eyes is not seeing the point.

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I haven't really hunted much since returning, so I will concede the issue with gathering sacs of visceral fluid.

 

As for the highway and potential lag, it sounds like the "only polling when highway is being used" is a good lag prevention system.  I do envision this: "The dragon hunt is at XYZ deed and for goodness sake, stay off the highway on your way here!"

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So if someone paves a highway off-deed, it connects village A to village B, and the road is horrible (rugged, edgy, not leveled, etc) do third party players have an option to "smooth" the highway out?

 

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After seeing them on the test server, is there any chance the catseyes can be smaller.  Maybe it's just that I am not used to them, but they appear large and out of place in-game.  It could just be the size of the green light part.  They really stick out.

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Posted (edited)

Just popped into my mind. As the cave entrances cannot be reinforced... how can we connect the road outside to the reinforced cave tiles?

Checked it for myself, so cave entrances allow it without reinforcements.

 

I have checked if I can even out some rough surface of a highway, it is allowed on the far end of the protected area but not in the adjacent corners to the catseye.

Will this mean that there is no practical way to fix highways which are laid down really bumpy?

As I tried there is no real way to bash the catseyes, with a 90ql maul, 90 str I bashed 0.2 damage on a 88ql one.

The catseyes of 88ql already has 2dmg on the test server, will they poof in a few weeks without repair?

 

The glow of the catseyes and the waypoints side lights and glow when showing the direction is a bit off Wurm for me, feels like hightech...

Edited by Jaz
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13 hours ago, Jaz said:

...

Will this mean that there is no practical way to fix highways which are laid down really bumpy?

As I tried there is no real way to bash the catseyes, with a 90ql maul, 90 str I bashed 0.2 damage on a 88ql one.

...

The glow of the catseyes and the waypoints side lights and glow when showing the direction is a bit off Wurm for me, feels like hightech...

 

Fixing badly made highways, removing catseyes and markers on abandoned highways (and fallen deeds) and the general hightech feeling are my main concerns as well.

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