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Rohgahr

Gelding of animals.

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Hi all, 

 

One of the players on the Wurm Unlimited server that I am hosting had a rather interesting suggestion in relation to being able to "Geld" an animal. Essentially this means that you sterilise an animal and make it unfit to breed with other animals. This would add a number of interesting aspects to the trade of animals, and makes it so that the gains tied to this aspect of the game correlates a bit better with the investment made by the players involved. 

 

Let's take 5 speed trait horses as an example. These horses have an obvious benefit, that benefit being: they are faster horses. This makes them a desirable asset that is very valueable in terms of trade for the following two reasons:

  1. Not everyone wants to invest in that aspect of the game
  2. Animals expire, and are a perishable commodity 

 

These two factors contribute to a steady demand for 5 speed trait horses, and it makes sense that trade would occur as a result thereof. The issue with this is that there is nothing stopping a potential competitor from purchasing a horse from you, and using it to breed his own horses. By itself that is not much of an issue as competition keeps the economy from becoming stagnant. My problem lies with that issue can be best explained through the following two points. 

  1. This significantly shortens the time and effort it takes for your competitor to reap the exact same rewards.
  2. The competitor is able to achieve the same results and gains as you in less time, investing the exact same amount as a player that bought a horse because he/she needed a mount. 

 

Being able to geld the animals you bred would enable a player to differentiate between the two. for an example: if another player wants to compete, and take a shortcut using one of your horses to breed his/her own? Then you are able to sell this person a horse at a higher rate without gelding it. If they just want a new mount? Sell them a cheaper horse that cannot be used for breeding purposes.

 

Another alternative would be to enable players to brand animals without restriction and reduce the chances for the offspring from that horse to receive those traits. 

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Although I'm not against the idea, I don't see it a big problem as in early times of a server the 5sp horses are usually priced much higher then later, supposedly partly of the above reasons. That "extraprofit" pays back the early breeders the effort been put into the breeding. Later 5sp horses are usually showing up in the wild too, escaping disbanded deeds etc.

The branding way would not really work, who would want to have a horse which is branded to someone else and such having full control over it? It would be like buying a car without the documents and only with a spare key handed over. ...or I'm fully misunderstanding the suggestion?

Edited by Jaz

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-1..

I'd never buy less useful animal, even if I don't plan to breed with it, it's another 'trait' to rather have.

 

only time I'd not mind something like this is for rifts.. etc.. just transportation/temporary mount.. I'd never use/buy long term useless pile of bones like that.

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I dont see this feature being much use. Prices are set by supply and demand, and not everyone breeds for profit. There will always be those who will sell the "Non gilded" horse cheaper than yours, and take the business from you anyways, so in essence you will have to stop gilding them if you want to make a sale.

 

Not to mention the added drama when a clueless player (one who doesnt do breeding) sells a gilded horse and the buyer goes to pick it up only to find out he cant breed it.

 

Its a mechanic that lends itself for a lot of trouble.

 

-1

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18 hours ago, Jaz said:

The branding way would not really work, who would want to have a horse which is branded to someone else and such having full control over it? It would be like buying a car without the documents and only with a spare key handed over. ...or I'm fully misunderstanding the suggestion?

 

@Jaz

My bad, should have been clearer in this. I meant it like this: instead of being able to lead a branded animal back to the settlement it belongs to, you would brand an animal as your personal brand. It would no longer be something that is used to ease leading horses and such, it would be more akin to something that shows up when examining the horse in addition to disabling or decreasing the rate (or even flat out preventing)  the transfer of traits from that parent to another horse. 

 

16 hours ago, Finnn said:

-1..

I'd never buy less useful animal, even if I don't plan to breed with it, it's another 'trait' to rather have.

 

only time I'd not mind something like this is for rifts.. etc.. just transportation/temporary mount.. I'd never use/buy long term useless pile of bones like that.


@Finnn

Okay, I understand you dislike the idea of completely disabling the possibility to breed these horses, but I am having trouble understanding your argument here as the possibility to purchase a breedable horse still exists and no one makes you buy a non breedable horse in a scenario where this feature would have been an actual game play aspect.

 

I am curious though, could you elaborate on your reasons why? For an example, what is your stance on the alternative? A means for players to apply to an animal sold to decrease the odds of these traits transferring to an offspring as it would not take away the possibility but pretty much would have the same result. 

 

15 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

I dont see this feature being much use. Prices are set by supply and demand, and not everyone breeds for profit. There will always be those who will sell the "Non gilded" horse cheaper than yours, and take the business from you anyways, so in essence you will have to stop gilding them if you want to make a sale.

 

Not to mention the added drama when a clueless player (one who doesnt do breeding) sells a gilded horse and the buyer goes to pick it up only to find out he cant breed it.

 

Its a mechanic that lends itself for a lot of trouble.

 

-1

 

@Angelklaine

Prices are indeed set by supply and demand, and part of why i suggested this has to do with the "Supply" part of that equation. Every bred horse contributes to the "supply" and has the potential  to impact it further, which is kinda the point of breeding. The point I am trying to make is that using a 5sp horse to start your own breeding program significantly decreases the threshold to start breeding your own 5sp horses, which makes things far easier for anyone employing this method. The end result is that the people employing this method reap benefits that are far greater than the amount invested before being able to do so. 

 

Not everyone breeds for profit is kind of a moot point here isn't it? You still increase the supply while the demand remains the same. The only difference with breeding for profit in this setup would be that there is less money changing hands. It would still affect the Supply vs demand ratio though. 

 

In relation to your argument on competition: If the result of him/her lowering their prices is cutting into your share of the market, then you need to offer a better deal to remain competitive. If not gelding your horses is the means to do so, sure. Alternatively you could also just lower your prices to match. There is no reason why this should result in a player being forced to not Geld a horse. 

 

About the point on drama: That can happen with absolutely everything involving player trade. 

 

Now I understand you dislike the Gelding as a possible suggestion, but I kinda feel like you missed the intent of the suggestion hence the above text. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rohgahr
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'alternative' is .. to get a pair of horses from anybody else but your stables, if they are less than normal..

I explained my reasons from the start.

 

Your concerns are YOUR concerns, and my interest is to get the most from my purchase, which is going to be incompatible with your sales model.
(hope that explains it)

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@Finnn

Euhm....no actually because the alternative I was reffering to is an alternative component of the suggestion: 

 

As in: A means for players to apply to an animal sold to decrease the odds of these traits transferring to an offspring as it would not take away the possibility. 

 

Regardless of that I get from your response that you are basically sharing your opinion "as is"  without further comments or arguments to add, is that correct?

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yes..

Spoiler

Situation for a long time have been that... you'd often be able to find a free 5speed horse..

Because of the long time... that it takes to get a new horse.. and than for it to grow up to useful age.. people are forced to breed them 20-50-100+, even in small farms or deeds.. there aren't that many benefits for skilling up AH.. so another reason for the people to do that .. for he RNG change to keep their 5speed numbers up..; eventualy.. sweet spot is when there are more than what the deed/village needs.. and it's often possible to give 1 or more to friend/s for free.

You are one of these people with many horses.. maybe not the kind with less AH skill.. but your goods aren't that rare to make a difference.. you'll be killing your own business. The idea is good.. but as it is.. it has no place on wurm's market.

 

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-1

No, sorry. There is competition out there already. Gelding is just your own way of trying to remove the possibility of a competitor trying to benefit from your work, but it happens every day, even in RL.  Designs get copied, simple as that.  If you want to be really competitive, find your niche.  Breed 5s jets with spark or something like that, not try to change game mechanics because someone may actually benefit from the product you sold them.

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0. In other games there is a value for gelding. I've played one where the good breeding stock were only for the elite and you would have to blood even to get a good gelding. It would be too late to add it now and the way horses work would have to change to make the demand increase for even 5

speed. Easiest thing to do would give gelding a speed boost. (On that note maybe a horse would get a permanent or temporary trait based on it current state)

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2 hours ago, Seriphina said:

-1

No, sorry. There is competition out there already. Gelding is just your own way of trying to remove the possibility of a competitor trying to benefit from your work, but it happens every day, even in RL.  Designs get copied, simple as that.  If you want to be really competitive, find your niche.  Breed 5s jets with spark or something like that, not try to change game mechanics because someone may actually benefit from the product you sold them.

 

@Seriphina

I agree that there is competition out there, and while there are ways to find a niche I felt like this could be a gimmick that could provide an additional layer to this aspect of the game, and felt like throwing it out there and get a dialogue started on the pro's and cons as that is what the suggestion section is for. Now I am not interested in getting into a back-and-forth where we derail in a senseless argument, what I am interested in is points to counter why gelding would not be a great idea. What I got from your response is:

 

Taking away the possibility or making it more difficult for potential competitors to start competing using the animals you bred would be pointless as there is plenty of competition out there already. It is better to find a niche in the market such as including traits as "spark" and the like to retain a competitive edge. Would that be correct?

 

1 hour ago, Lupe said:

0. In other games there is a value for gelding. I've played one where the good breeding stock were only for the elite and you would have to blood even to get a good gelding. It would be too late to add it now and the way horses work would have to change to make the demand increase for even 5

speed. Easiest thing to do would give gelding a speed boost. (On that note maybe a horse would get a permanent or temporary trait based on it current state)

 

@Lupe

Fair point(s) that kinda happened on Black Dessert as well where breeding horses is restricted not through gelding, but rather through a limit on how often a horse can breed. Black Dessert is all about competition (which is why i like it) so getting into that aspect of the game felt kind off like an elite ballpark. In addition that distinction an have consequences for the price for both a "Gelded" and "Ungelded" horse.

Also, adding a beneficial state to a gelded horse is actually a good idea and could work as it would add benefits to buying a gelded horse rather than one that can still breed if you want to put them in front of a cart or for use as a mount or something. 

 

3 hours ago, Finnn said:

yes..

  Hide contents

Situation for a long time have been that... you'd often be able to find a free 5speed horse..

Because of the long time... that it takes to get a new horse.. and than for it to grow up to useful age.. people are forced to breed them 20-50-100+, even in small farms or deeds.. there aren't that many benefits for skilling up AH.. so another reason for the people to do that .. for he RNG change to keep their 5speed numbers up..; eventualy.. sweet spot is when there are more than what the deed/village needs.. and it's often possible to give 1 or more to friend/s for free.

You are one of these people with many horses.. maybe not the kind with less AH skill.. but your goods aren't that rare to make a difference.. you'll be killing your own business. The idea is good.. but as it is.. it has no place on wurm's market.

 

@Finnn

That's a pretty sweet argument actually. Due to the time it takes for an animal to be born and raised to the point where it is useful in addition to the RNG factor involved in relation to the traits it inherits from it's parents, there is no immediate impact on the demand if another player starts breeding if the player base is large enough. Which for WO it certainly is. It would still be easier for someone to get their breeding program started but depending on the size of a player base the competitive effects would be rather small, which in turn means that at the very least the gains of the person the animal was bought from would remain more or less unaffected. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Rohgahr said:

 

@Seriphina

I agree that there is competition out there, and while there are ways to find a niche I felt like this could be a gimmick that could provide an additional layer to this aspect of the game, and felt like throwing it out there and get a dialogue started on the pro's and cons as that is what the suggestion section is for. Now I am not interested in getting into a back-and-forth where we derail in a senseless argument, what I am interested in is points to counter why gelding would not be a great idea. What I got from your response is:

 

Taking away the possibility or making it more difficult for potential competitors to start competing using the animals you bred would be pointless as there is plenty of competition out there already. It is better to find a niche in the market such as including traits as "spark" and the like to retain a competitive edge. Would that be correct?

 

 

Yes that is part of what I said. The rest of what I thought was implicit is that I see no actual benefit to adding this mechanic. With high enough AH someone can take two wild horses and start gaining the additional traits in just a few breedings. A player with low AH won't benefit from breeding 5speeds anyway because of the RNG involved in trait continuation they might get a few traits, but the mechanic is already skill based.  Adding further barriers simply doesn't make sense since a mechanic exists already.

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-1

 

No. This feature is highly unnecessary. It would not put any dent on the current competitors and would only make it more difficult to get new breeders into the market. This feature only seems to make it to where you have an edge on your future competition.

 

However I will give an alternative suggestion. How about the introduction of a negative trait. I am thinking that it can be a sterile one. Genesis can still heal it and breeders of all levels will still have to worry about it instead of just new breeders.

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+1 But you aren't gonna win here. This was suggested before and everybody simply doesnt care about animal husbandry players making a good profit. they just don't want to see gelded animals being sold instead of breeding pairs. Theres a difference between what people what, and whats best for the game :) And people here (the posts im seeing in this thread) don't want whats best for the game

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2 hours ago, Seriphina said:

Yes that is part of what I said. The rest of what I thought was implicit is that I see no actual benefit to adding this mechanic. With high enough AH someone can take two wild horses and start gaining the additional traits in just a few breedings. A player with low AH won't benefit from breeding 5speeds anyway because of the RNG involved in trait continuation they might get a few traits, but the mechanic is already skill based.  Adding further barriers simply doesn't make sense since a mechanic exists already.

 

@Seriphina

Fair enough, for arguments sake, what are your thoughts on the application of a negative trait that could potentially be removed which would decrease the odds of this horse it's offspring inheriting it's a parent trait and possibly provide a small beneficial effect in return while this negative trait is active?*

 

* Alternative as based on fellow player feedback up to this point (ty Dazama and Lupe)

 

1 hour ago, Dazama said:

-1

 

No. This feature is highly unnecessary. It would not put any dent on the current competitors and would only make it more difficult to get new breeders into the market. This feature only seems to make it to where you have an edge on your future competition.

 

However I will give an alternative suggestion. How about the introduction of a negative trait. I am thinking that it can be a sterile one. Genesis can still heal it and breeders of all levels will still have to worry about it instead of just new breeders.

 

@Dazama

I agree with you on that this would potentially decrease the amount of new competitors due to the increased difficulty on the WO platform, not so much for WU though. I gotta say though, your alternative suggestion is pretty interesting as it would provide an increased difficulty across the board, but not one that cannot be overcome. 

 

What are your thoughts on that alternative in combination with a minor buff to counter the breeding nerf as Lupe suggested? It does not have to be a speed buff, it can be something as simple as reduced hunger, or a decrease in the rate an animal gets sick while this negative trait is active. 

 

Or maybe making it something that would not make it impossible, but simply reduce the odds of having a trait or the number of traits being passed on to their offspring while in effect?

 

38 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

+1 But you aren't gonna win here. This was suggested before and everybody simply doesnt care about animal husbandry players making a good profit. they just don't want to see gelded animals being sold instead of breeding pairs. Theres a difference between what people what, and whats best for the game :) And people here (the posts im seeing in this thread) don't want whats best for the game

 

@Yiraia

To be honest, I do think that "what is best for the game" is not something any of us are able to determine individually as the game is an mmo and by it's very nature requires multiple people that each have their own opinion on things. I would also argue that there is no difference between "What players want" and "What is good for the game." I am glad that you like the idea ^^ would like to add that I am not trying to win an argument here. My intent is literally nothing more than throwing an idea out there that I feel might be interesting and get a dialogue going. It's a public spit balling session of sorts to see if something I felt was/is interesting is also interesting to other players, and if they don't find it interesting to figure out what would be interesting to them. 

 

Again, happy to hear that you like the idea, as i was starting to feel a bit depressed here xD (joke) But as I said to Seriphina earlier, I am interested in what people think about this and why, and don't want to derail the spitball too much  with pointless arguments if you get what I mean ^^. Got any thoughts on the alternatives? Or if you would like to suggest an alternative yourself, feel free.

Edited by Rohgahr
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2 hours ago, Dazama said:

-1

 

No. This feature is highly unnecessary. It would not put any dent on the current competitors and would only make it more difficult to get new breeders into the market. This feature only seems to make it to where you have an edge on your future competition.

 

However I will give an alternative suggestion. How about the introduction of a negative trait. I am thinking that it can be a sterile one. Genesis can still heal it and breeders of all levels will still have to worry about it instead of just new breeders.

 

This may be a far better solution.  The people who breed breed breed to make horses for sale are some of the problems with mob spawns on the servers.  I wouldn't even mind if it was a permanent trait, not removable by Genesis.

 

The concept of gelding is simply not a mechanic I'd like to see. There are some young people that play for one, and that goes beyond the concept of a girl plus a boy may equal a baby.  Second, I don't want to do that to my digital animals, especially since there's not an issue of them breeding on their own and all breeding is player initiated.

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20 minutes ago, Seriphina said:

 

This may be a far better solution.  The people who breed breed breed to make horses for sale are some of the problems with mob spawns on the servers.  I wouldn't even mind if it was a permanent trait, not removable by Genesis.

 

The concept of gelding is simply not a mechanic I'd like to see. There are some young people that play for one, and that goes beyond the concept of a girl plus a boy may equal a baby.  Second, I don't want to do that to my digital animals, especially since there's not an issue of them breeding on their own and all breeding is player initiated.

 

Also would like to add that through a trait there is no way to have this trait put into effect deliberately, as these horses can't be bred there is no way to deliberately breed this trait.

 

Meant this as a good thing

Edited by Rohgahr
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1 hour ago, Rohgahr said:

 

Also would like to add that through a trait there is no way to have this trait put into effect deliberately, as these horses can't be bred there is no way to deliberately breed this trait.

 

Meant this as a good thing

 

That's the point.  You want to limit breeding, but you want to do it on your own terms.  It looks more like you're stomping your feet about someone breeding horses you've sold them.  Then don't sell your horses. Simple as that.  You're creating a negative in addition to the skill requirements already built into the game, when most often people are very clear about purchasing breeding pairs of horses.  Then you want to further bog down the system by adding another condition that a horse may or may not be able to breed, causing people to keep even more horses on deed to account for both gelded and breeding horses.  Can't get behind it. It's excessive, and it hurts players who are still skilling AH because you want to make some extra coin selling horses.

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4 hours ago, Seriphina said:

 

 Can't get behind it. It's excessive, and it hurts players who are still skilling AH because you want to make some extra coin selling horses.

 

At this point I feel like I need to say something about this. I have absolutely no idea why you fly off on an assumption and corresponding accusative remarks. Your arguments themselves makes sense to me, but that accusation above doesn't. My initial motivation for putting this out there  can be quite literally taken from the first line of my post, as seen below. 

 

On 5/23/2017 at 5:06 PM, Rohgahr said:

Hi all, 

 

One of the players on the Wurm Unlimited server that I am hosting had a rather interesting suggestion in relation to...

 

So there you go, the only thing I am interested in here is getting as many perspectives on this as possible, and again: spit balling on an idea with people, especially the people that disagree with that idea. 

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+1 for new cooking recipes!

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3 hours ago, jackjones said:

+1 for new cooking recipes!

@jackjones

LOL! That actually made me laugh XD nearly got me in trouble at work

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8 hours ago, Rohgahr said:

 

 

At this point I feel like I need to say something about this. I have absolutely no idea why you fly off on an assumption and corresponding accusative remarks. Your arguments themselves makes sense to me, but that accusation above doesn't. My initial motivation for putting this out there  can be quite literally taken from the first line of my post, as seen below. 

 

 

So there you go, the only thing I am interested in here is getting as many perspectives on this as possible, and again: spit balling on an idea with people, especially the people that disagree with that idea. 

 Actually, you said yourself that the motivation behind this is in fact monetary.  Let's look at more than the first sentence of your post and get to the honest reason you're suggesting this change.

 

On 5/23/2017 at 0:06 PM, Rohgahr said:

Hi all, 

 

One of the players on the Wurm Unlimited server that I am hosting had a rather interesting suggestion in relation to being able to "Geld" an animal. Essentially this means that you sterilise an animal and make it unfit to breed with other animals. This would add a number of interesting aspects to the trade of animals, and makes it so that the gains tied to this aspect of the game correlates a bit better with the investment made by the players involved. 

 

Let's take 5 speed trait horses as an example. These horses have an obvious benefit, that benefit being: they are faster horses. This makes them a desirable asset that is very valueable in terms of trade for the following two reasons:

  1. Not everyone wants to invest in that aspect of the game
  2. Animals expire, and are a perishable commodity 

 

These two factors contribute to a steady demand for 5 speed trait horses, and it makes sense that trade would occur as a result thereof. The issue with this is that there is nothing stopping a potential competitor from purchasing a horse from you, and using it to breed his own horses. By itself that is not much of an issue as competition keeps the economy from becoming stagnant. My problem lies with that issue can be best explained through the following two points. 

  1. This significantly shortens the time and effort it takes for your competitor to reap the exact same rewards.
  2. The competitor is able to achieve the same results and gains as you in less time, investing the exact same amount as a player that bought a horse because he/she needed a mount. 

 

Being able to geld the animals you bred would enable a player to differentiate between the two. for an example: if another player wants to compete, and take a shortcut using one of your horses to breed his/her own? Then you are able to sell this person a horse at a higher rate without gelding it. If they just want a new mount? Sell them a cheaper horse that cannot be used for breeding purposes.

 

Another alternative would be to enable players to brand animals without restriction and reduce the chances for the offspring from that horse to receive those traits. 

 

You're very clear here that your intention is to stop people from breeding horses that someone else has bred as a means of improving financial returns on their time invested in breeding.  Simply, you want to sell more horses because people can't just buy some horses and breed them for themselves.  Please don't pretend that there is any other motivation here.

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On 2017-5-24 at 2:52 PM, Seriphina said:

No, sorry. There is competition out there already. Gelding is just your own way of trying to remove the possibility of a competitor trying to benefit from your work, but it happens every day, even in RL.  Designs get copied, simple as that.  If you want to be really competitive, find your niche.  Breed 5s jets with spark or something like that, not try to change game mechanics because someone may actually benefit from the product you sold them.

Designs get copied.. as simple as that... No.. Not as simple as that. A blacksmith can make a 90ql tool and get it enchanted by a priest to make it 90 Woa and 90 Coc. Nobody is gonna copy that. Same goes for Carpenters (Bowyers, Fletchers, Fine Carpenters, Toymakers, Ship builders), Woodcutters (high ql logs), Miners (High ql ores and shards), Diggers (high ql clay), Potters, Tailors (Leatherworking and Cloth tailoring), Masons (stonecutting involved), Ropemakers (cordage ql for sacs), Weaponsmithers, Armor smiths (Chain, Plate, and Shields), Metallurgy (good steel), Jewelrysmithing (Runes, jewelry, altars), Affinity chefs for all types of cooking, Farmers, Foragers and Botanizers for unfarmable items, Fighters getting highql mob drops, Prospectors getting good rift crystals and possibly most importantly Priests.

 

I can't think of any skill that can be "copied" like Animal husbandry could. This suggestion is only asking for Animal husbandry players to take part on the list, and everybody is so far saying "I would never buy such a thing and others will sell breeding pairs always" Like they can see the future. One person in my deed bought a 5spd horse and we are set for life now with several 3-5spd horses in my deed, but my coc tools are diminishing and i need to revisit whoever sold me that coc cast. I feel bad for animal husbandry players

3 hours ago, Seriphina said:

You're very clear here that your intention is to stop people from breeding horses that someone else has bred as a means of improving financial returns on their time invested in breeding.  Simply, you want to sell more horses because people can't just buy some horses and breed them for themselves.  Please don't pretend that there is any other motivation here.

Nothing is wrong with that type of motivation. My motivation however is putting value in a skill. I'm sure blacksmiths would be pretty annoyed if you can clang two 90ql pickaxes together and make another 90ql pickaxe. And I bet they would cut their pickaxes' shaft off before they sell them too.

Edited by Yiraia
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39 minutes ago, Yiraia said:


 

Designs get copied.. as simple as that... No.. Not as simple as that. A blacksmith can make a 90ql tool and get it enchanted by a priest to make it 90 Woa and 90 Coc. Nobody is gonna copy that. Same goes for Carpenters (Bowyers, Fletchers, Fine Carpenters, Toymakers, Ship builders), Woodcutters (high ql logs), Miners (High ql ores and shards), Diggers (high ql clay), Potters, Tailors (Leatherworking and Cloth tailoring), Masons (stonecutting involved), Ropemakers (cordage ql for sacs), Weaponsmithers, Armor smiths (Chain, Plate, and Shields), Metallurgy (good steel), Jewelrysmithing (Runes, jewelry, altars), Affinity chefs for all types of cooking, Farmers, Foragers and Botanizers for unfarmable items, Fighters getting highql mob drops, Prospectors getting good rift crystals and possibly most importantly Priests.

 

I can't think of any skill that can be "copied" like Animal husbandry could. This suggestion is only asking for Animal husbandry players to take part on the list, and everybody is so far saying "I would never buy such a thing and others will sell breeding pairs always" Like they can see the future. One person in my deed bought a 5spd horse and we are set for life now with several 3-5spd horses in my deed, but my coc tools are diminishing and i need to revisit whoever sold me that coc cast. I feel bad for animal husbandry players

Nothing is wrong with that type of motivation. My motivation however is putting value in a skill. I'm sure blacksmiths would be pretty annoyed if you can clang two 90ql pickaxes together and make another 90ql pickaxe. And I bet they would cut their pickaxes' shaft off before they sell them too.

So you're saying that someone making a 90ql pickaxe, spending hours in front of forges to imp them, buying or mining high enough QL ore (after finding an appropriate vein) to imp high enough is somehow comparable to someone at about 50 AH leading two horses next to each other and choosing the breed option?

 

Apples to oranges.  These are not the same time or skill investment and an incredible unbalanced comparison.  Someone I buy horses from breeds 5s jets with spark and unusually healthy.  They're worth every coin I spend.  It would take ages for my AH to get high enough to carry over those traits, and frankly I'm not interested in getting that high, so I buy them.  Breeding just 5s horses does take some time investment for skilling, but not nearly the amount needed for other marketable items.  Beyond that, it's a bit of luck if skills and other traits carry over.  Fine if you want to breed and sell horses, but it's not the same investment as smiths, priests, and other crafters.

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3 hours ago, Seriphina said:

Apples to oranges.  These are not the same time or skill investment and an incredible unbalanced comparison.  Someone I buy horses from breeds 5s jets with spark and unusually healthy.  They're worth every coin I spend.  It would take ages for my AH to get high enough to carry over those traits, and frankly I'm not interested in getting that high, so I buy them.  Breeding just 5s horses does take some time investment for skilling, but not nearly the amount needed for other marketable items.  Beyond that, it's a bit of luck if skills and other traits carry over.  Fine if you want to breed and sell horses, but it's not the same investment as smiths, priests, and other crafters.

If getting 5 speed horses was as easy as you make it sound then nobody here would be arguing about it. Making 5spd horses after having a breeding pair is easy, but starting with blank horses is what makes them more difficult. Again, a person on my deed has around 30 AH and is making 5s with the breeding pair she bought.. the seller had no other choice than to set us up for life with 5spd horses. We tried making 5spd hell horses (that were blank) with a Fo priest and the traits were heavily random and took a lot of managing, after 2 months we only reached 3s. 

 

+ i think you are wrong when you say making a 90ql item takes a lot more time than a 5speed horse (starting from blank). It heavily varies on the player.

Edited by Yiraia

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