Sign in to follow this  
Davih

Gardening Nerf?

Recommended Posts

"You're the customer, suck it up". 

 

Got it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh come on, how can you say these kind of things?

This whole game mechanics are based on finding something that you like to do and repeating it for an insane amount of times.

All of a sudden, you realized this was good for everything except gardening?

"Obviously flawed system"?

Why? Seriously, how is there any difference between this and any other skill in the game?

Farming is flawed because you can plant a thousand tiles of wemp and gather them a few days later to have ~15k of wemp with 2k actions without raking them once?
Mining is flawed cause you can mine up to 8k ores of mostly very high ql in a single day with the right skill and tools?
Coalmaking is flawed cause you can make hundreds of piles at the same time and by so producing automatically thousands of charcoal and ash?
Woodcutting and shipbuilding are flawed because with 90+ql logs and 90ship building and the right tools you can craft a whole caravel in a single day?

I mean, let's talk about something seriously broken like Favor before the rebalancing, that was so Overpowered that basically more than half the players in this game made a Nahjo priest just to take advantage of that.
You changed it after more than 1 year despite it was something in extreme need of fixing and when you finally did it, it became "doomsday". A lot of people quitted, many other insulted you and the staff, and you ended up being forced to discuss and concede a lot of things, like free conversions and other benefits and adjustments.

Now, gardening is something that never really needed any balancing, in fact only me, Jakerivers and maybe a couple other players actually tried to get something out of it (and also kinda failed by doing so, cause it wasn't even really worth it)

But since we aren't many, you will just say "we decided it was flawed, we don't care, get over it"?

Are you only considering other people's feedback when things get really messy, even if you are right?

While If something doesn't degenerate, you'll say "who cares" even if you are in the wrong?

I'm not here to threathen to quit or insult anyone, i'm just here to make you notice this thing was very uncalled for and your explainations are unconvincing.

The only response i get is that my complaints are wrong and deserve being ignored and i'm "lucky to not get punished for having abused the thing"... Really?



 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Cecci said:

Why is 100 trellises a problem if 100 farm tiles aren't, raked or not raked?

if you want maximum yield of the tiles tend them

 

if you want maximum yield of the trellises prune them

 

 

If the argument is "why did you wait so long?" it's not a very strong argument, I understand some are upset with their maximum yield now requiring some effort beyond create and forget except once a wurm year, but the fact remains this was an unintended and undesired circumstance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

if you want maximum yield of the tiles tend them

 

if you want maximum yield of the trellises prune them

They are two different kind of problem/ mechanics

Raking is a way to "improve" your farming yield, making it or not is up to you, if you don't sow anything you will have nothing to rake until you do sow things, and that is to be done in the few days before harvesting.

Pruning is something that you can do just before harvesting only if the bush you're trying to harvest is "overaged" , if it slipped away, died, and became young , there is nothing you can do about it, if it's young/mature and it doesn't want to grow up (randomness makes everything worse) it just gets out of control and becomes frustrating.
Kkeeping even an average amount of trellis (50?) in order is very unlikely unless you are a trellis-maniac, and they need to be checked daily for a whole wurmian year in order to get an harvest that is something you can make only once a year.

So they aren't even nearly comparable.

There is no chance someone could keep a large sized trellis farm in order without wasting an incredibly high amount of time and mind-sanity over it.

Also, this is not really the point in general, since we are just talking about a skill that needed some love and got a nerf instead.

Edited by Davih

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

Sometimes development decisions are made based on balance and unintended mechanics.

 

The way trellises worked was considered unintended when taken to extremes, given those who have created 400-1000 trellises to take advantage of this system, we found the best solution to be making this change.

 

That is why this decision was made, those who use them in small amounts and those who user them for decoration will see little to no change

 

The mechanic created made having a vineyard possible, why did you people go to the trouble of creating a system where you could plant 4 trellis on a tile in neat orderly rows if you didn't want anyone making something out of this system?

 

Because of your change the hours it will take to prune this makes this entire system obsolete and nothing more than a fancy decoration now.

 

HhP6dsM.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

if you want maximum yield of the trellises prune them

 

Here is where the jokes on you. If the trellis yard goes to shriveled or young the day before harvest, there is nothing to be done about saving this crop, you are expecting us to prune all this for weeks on end for that one day where the crop is ready to harvest, this is no where near the same as farming a crop where there is no harvest season to co-ordinate your corn patch with.

 

hah, I repeated what davih said

Edited by JakeRivers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

The way trellises worked was considered unintended when taken to extremes, given those who have created 400-1000 trellises to take advantage of this system, we found the best solution to be making this change.

 

Hey you saying that the hours of gathering the bloody seedlings and then even more hours of work creating shafts and making nails should not have some kind of reward for the effort, well F you, cause this change is nothing more than a big F you to whoever put the time into making this.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know exactly what i liked of that system, that i could gather all trellis regardlessly and didn't have to bother checking if one was overaged or young, and i didn't waste my time and my sleep bonus making void clicks and losing time and patience in general.

Now that i answered myself that question, i still see not even the slightest room for "abuse" in what i did nor any sort of flawed mechanic.

I have just seen that my 2400 shafts, 400 seedlings (and 400 nails plus the 2800 slow actions to create them, the decdicated space and planting them one by one) were starting to paying off and give me something back for the effort.

I found something that i liked and replicated it a lot of times, which, is usually what most players regularly do on wurm anyway, with all skills.

Edited by Davih
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If too many trellis' are an abuse, does this also apply to bee-hives?  Perhaps there needs to be some other maintenance/cleaning/feeding done to manage a hive.  And how many hives should be allowed per player?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JakeRivers said:

 

The mechanic created made having a vineyard possible, why did you people go to the trouble of creating a system where you could plant 4 trellis on a tile in neat orderly rows if you didn't want anyone making something out of this system?

 

Because of your change the hours it will take to prune this makes this entire system obsolete and nothing more than a fancy decoration now.

 

HhP6dsM.jpg

 

This image alone is more than enough for me to consider this entire thing done.

 

This is how you don't enact the changes you desire. You don't throw out the reasoning and make threats. You consider the reasoning and offer a solution that may be work better and bridge whatever gap there is.

 

I've seen all sorts of comparisons, but none are valid. None.

 

Farm tiles die off when not harvested on time and must be planted again. You can also only plant one crop per tile. They should also be tended, but I do understand that this is technically optional.

Coal piles are a tad harder to make and go away when they're done.

 

A trellis doesn't go away. It can be stacked four per tile. And now precisely how many more actions must be taken after they age up?

 

Discussions on having Wild Growth affect them is something we've already started.

 

So given the facts:

These will keep their age.

Wild Growth may be altered to work with them.

It is intended to make large trellis farms harder to manage.

 

What suggestions do you have? That's all I'll be paying attention to from here on out.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Keenan said:

I've seen all sorts of comparisons, but none are valid. None.

 

Farm tiles die off when not harvested on time and must be planted again. You can also only plant one crop per tile. They should also be tended, but I do understand that this is technically optional.

Coal piles are a tad harder to make and go away when they're done.

 

 

What suggestions do you have? That's all I'll be paying attention to from here on out.

Farming tiles don't need to be crafted.
Coalmaking isn't really something that can be compared for balance

Still, those example were brought out in another context, not the context of balance, but the the fact that you were blaming us of "abusing" the system, i brought up these examples only to ask why grinding a lot of those things was not considered "abuse" while us making a lot of trellis should have been so.

 

11 minutes ago, Keenan said:

What suggestions do you have? That's all I'll be paying attention to from here on out.

Do you actually want some suggestions? Seems like you already decided you won't be doing anything.

- Revert the "aging" and bring them back like they were before, because this cuts away all the "handiness" of having a crafted trellis instead of a bush.
- cap quality of yield to 1.5~2x the QL of the trellis if you think this way is "too easy"
- add more kind of trellis or similar crafts for other fruits/crops/flowers. Because right now grapes are the only ones worth having more than 10 trellies and gardening is still an useless and underused skill.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Davih said:

Farming tiles don't need to be crafted.
Coalmaking isn't really something that can be compared for balance

Still, those example were brought out in another context, not the context of balance, but the the fact that you were blaming us of "abusing" the system, i brought up these examples only to ask why grinding a lot of those things was not considered "abuse" while us making a lot of trellis should have been so.

In both cases, they "go away". Farming tiles require timing the harvest or they're ruined. They also require one tile per, which means you're either working off-deed and at risk for anyone to destroy your farm (remember, no enclosures) or deed over it and pay the silver to hold the land for your farm. Coal piles, if I recall correctly, are harder to make. While you can spam quite a few, you do have to pick up their contents and the created item vanishes after a period of time.
 

Do you actually want some suggestions? Seems like you already decided you won't be doing anything.

- Revert the "aging" and bring them back like they were before, because this cuts away all the "handiness" of having a crafted trellis instead of a bush.

Seeing as they were brought in line with bushes, age will not be reverted. I'm open to suggestions on how to make them more useful over bushes, but I honestly think the 4-per-tile is enough.
- cap quality of yield to 1.5~2x the QL of the trellis if you think this way is "too easy"

Interesting, but so you'd rather have to improve a trellis up? This doesn't solve the issue of massive trellis farms requiring a bit more work to keep though. It really only punishes those of lower skill.
- add more kind of trellis or similar crafts for other fruits/crops/flowers. Because right now grapes are the only ones worth having more than 10 trellies and gardening is still an useless and underused skill.

I am not aware of any plans for more at current, but that may change if good candidates are suggested.
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then don't pay for the game and don't play it then.  I have plenty of reasons to quit this game and I have reasons why I don't quit this game.

 

I enjoy the small dev team that tries to keep Wurm going and feel sorry that they have to take this type of crap from people.  You are the customer.  You did no make or create or do anything to help Wurm succeed.  You are the customer.  STFU and play the game how it is programmed or go play something else.  Or go play Wurm Unlimited and make a mod then you can have it your way.  You are the customer using a service built by someone else.

 

After yesterday's embark bug I wanted to punch my monitor and quit Wurm and then I bought 6 months premium time an hour later. :P

 

This community really starting to suck.  Watching "Activity" tab in forums and all these babies starting fights with the Wurm team.

 

Good luck finding another game like Wurm Online.  

Edited by nicedreams
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, nicedreams said:

You did no make or create or do anything to help Wurm succeed.

I'm sorry.  You mean that the people who spent their money on this game as it was being developed did NOTHING to help Wurm succeed?  Just where to think it would be now if those who have been SUPPORTING DEVELOPMENT WITH MONEY for five or more years had not done so?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Morhedron said:

I'm sorry.  You mean that the people who spent their money on this game as it was being developed did NOTHING to help Wurm succeed?  Just where to think it would be now if those who have been SUPPORTING DEVELOPMENT WITH MONEY for five or more years had not done so?

 

Exactly.  I run my own business and never have my customers in 15 years say since they paid for service from my company that they deserve the right to make changes in my company.

 

I've spent hundreds on this game over the years.  I didn't think I was buying stock in the company or buying voting rights on business decisions.

Edited by nicedreams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Interesting, but so you'd rather have to improve a trellis up? This doesn't solve the issue of massive trellis farms requiring a bit more work to keep though. It really only punishes those of lower skill.

Those with lower skills cannot be punished, because if the cap is a multiplier, it will grow accordingly with their skill, and by so, their ability to improve trellis higher, if the multiplier is set at something like 1.5x , then at 60 skill they would need 40ql trellis, at 30 skill they would need 20ql skill to cap yield at their QL, and so on.

Also, do you really think that introducing aging would reduce the massive trellis farms?

Pruning them is out of question for basically anyone, because you can't honestly believe that someone is going to prune trellis checking them everyday for a whole wurmian year to just gather them once. If someone was to do something like this on a big farm, it will probably become stressed out and leave gardening or trellis alone pretty quickly.

The only real solution to the newly introduced aging is kinda obvious, and it's making even more trellis and making even more massive trellis farm, so that by having more, in every season (except this next one which is burned for everyone) you would always have roughly 50% of the previous production (40% if they have withered stage) , so let's just double our amount of trellies, cope with the very annoying aging and different yield from them, and call it done.

And yeah, i would prefer improving them big time compared to have somethign that would either require mantainance or become an annoying thing that i would have to deal with forever

I'm not sure what you were thinking to achieve with this change. but it's going to be either double sized farms (rip fps) or people throwing their trellies into lava pits as a rage outburst and go back to forestry, lol.

 

Quote

I am not aware of any plans for more at current, but that may change if good candidates are suggested.

Well, honestly this saddens me a bit, i really hoped there were to be more plans for gardening in general, i might try to come up with some of them, but well, not today i guess.

 

Quote

In both cases, they "go away". Farming tiles require timing the harvest or they're ruined. They also require one tile per, which means you're either working off-deed and at risk for anyone to destroy your farm (remember, no enclosures) or deed over it and pay the silver to hold the land for your farm. Coal piles, if I recall correctly, are harder to make. While you can spam quite a few, you do have to pick up their contents and the created item vanishes after a period of time.

I can tell you that, on Xanadu, something like that is incredibly unlikely, people don't usually even bother to harvest open farms, let alone bashing even a single wooden fence just for harvesting bushes.

I have several huge zones of most kind of bushes in mind, and they are all out in the open, not even getting contested.

With time is extremely easy to create huge zones of a single bush/tree , i just let them prosper on their own and sometimes cut down all the different species, they tend to cover up huge zones without even wasting sprouts.

Edited by Davih

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, nicedreams said:

 

Exactly.  I run my own business and never have my customers in 15 years say since they paid for service from my company that they deserve the right to make changes in my company.

 

I've spent hundreds on this game over the years.  I didn't think I was buying stock in the company or buying voting rights on business decisions.

I see.  So your business grew because your customers were dissatisfied with the services you were providing?  How interesting.

 

And of course, you explained to your customers that you would provide better service sometime in the future as you developed your business, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, nicedreams said:

 

Exactly.  I run my own business and never have my customers in 15 years say since they paid for service from my company that they deserve the right to make changes in my company.


Well, i hope it's not a game, lol

Also your previous comment is kinda silly as well.

What kind of advice are "STFU and play" or "go play Wurm Unlimited"?
 

Quote

This community really starting to suck.  Watching "Activity" tab in forums and all these babies starting fights with the Wurm team.

 

Good luck finding another game like Wurm Online.  

I'm not here to start a fight with the wurm team, i'm here to discuss something that i don't like and was introduced in a way that i did not like, they are free to ignore me if they want.
And if i do that it's just because i enjoy and appreciate wurm as a game, if this was a bad game that i didn't intend to play anymore, i would just straight-forward quit it without wasting my time into discussions.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

9 hours ago, Keenan said:

Carry on, though this is a fruitless debate.


Actually, it'll be a grapes/hops/rose-less debate, as people will realize there's no point in using the mechanic anymore. I personally only had maybe 10 trellises of each type, and I imped them as high as I could (56+ QL).

 

8 hours ago, Morhedron said:

If this is a fruitless debate, like my trellis' for this harvest, I find myself again contemplating why I continue to sink funds into this game.

 

 

8 hours ago, Morhedron said:

All the "little to no change"s add up to massive frustration.  To dismiss the concerns (and feelings) of any customer(s) in such an off-hand way is extremely irksome to say the least.

 

 

8 hours ago, Morhedron said:

And again....  how much frustration shall I endure?  So this is just going to continue this way?  Regardless of customer input? 

 


These are questions I've been asking myself a lot lately.

 

1 hour ago, Keenan said:

You don't throw out the reasoning

 

Like you are? Customers of the game are expressing discontent (And have been for awhile about a few things) and the response has been 'Bite a bullet and deal or else'. Maybe more customers are starting to feel they'd rather bite that bullet than deal with the attitude problem coming from the builders of the game? The 'I'm holier than thou'/'preach from on-high' thing is getting really old. It's one reason I've left previously a few times even though I enjoyed a lot of the game mechanics otherwise. It's also one reason I took a year long break and went and paid FFXIV a subscription price for a year instead during my last break...which could've been more funding for Wurm but they lost those funds by being arrogant.

 

59 minutes ago, Keenan said:

- cap quality of yield to 1.5~2x the QL of the trellis if you think this way is "too easy"

Interesting, but so you'd rather have to improve a trellis up? This doesn't solve the issue of massive trellis farms requiring a bit more work to keep though. It really only punishes those of lower skill.


Have you built a trellis recently? It takes over an hour and a half to imp about 5 up to just under 60 QL. It's not even comparable to pottery...which can take upwards of 3 hours to imp something from 1 to 65+QL (Which is bugged as heck). Someone building that massive of a trellis plot would spend hours imping all of those up. (That's a lot of work!)

 

You're also currently saying they should just suffer by having to deal with just simply not even getting a harvest if they happened to not maintain it perfectly and their trellises happened to be on shriveled during harvest time, making all of that work building them pointless.

Edited by Corsan
Darn formatting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Morhedron said:

I see.  So your business grew because your customers were dissatisfied with the services you were providing?  How interesting.

 

And of course, you explained to your customers that you would provide better service sometime in the future as you developed your business, right?

 

Hope you don't own an iPhone or an Apple product.  You do know that Steve Jobs didn't care for any of his customers input and didn't do anything that customers wanted.  He made his products the way he wanted them and then people used them.  And when Steve Jobs returned to Apple they became one of the biggest businesses on the planet.  And people still buy his products even when he told customers he didn't care what they thought.

 

You are allowed to run a business any way you want as long as it is within the laws of the country or state you are organized in.  There is no requirement stating you must listen to your customers and do what they want.

Edited by nicedreams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, nicedreams said:

Hope you don't own an iPhone or an Apple product.

I don't. Haven't. And won't.  For those very reasons.  As well as being overpriced.  But this is Wurm, not Apple review.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Corsan said:

 


Actually, it'll be a grapes/hops/rose-less debate, as people will realize there's no point in using the mechanic anymore. I personally only had maybe 10 trellises of each type, and I imped them as high as I could (56+ QL).

 

 

 

 

 

 


These are questions I've been asking myself a lot lately.

 

 

Like you are? Customers of the game are expressing discontent (And have been for awhile about a few things) and the response has been 'Bite a bullet and deal or else'. Maybe more customers are starting to feel they'd rather bite that bullet than deal with the attitude problem coming from the builders of the game? The 'I'm holier than thou'/'preach from on-high' thing is getting really old. It's one reason I've left previously a few times even though I enjoyed a lot of the game mechanics otherwise. It's also one reason I took a year long break and went and paid FFXIV a subscription price for a year instead during my last break...which could've been more funding for Wurm but they lost those funds by being arrogant.

 


Have you built a trellis recently? It takes over an hour and a half to imp about 5 up to just under 60 QL. It's not even comparable to pottery...which can take upwards of 3 hours to imp something from 1 to 65+QL (Which is bugged as heck). Someone building that massive of a trellis plot would spend hours imping all of those up. (That's a lot of work!)

 

You're also currently saying they should just suffer by having to deal with just simply not even getting a harvest if they happened to not maintain it perfectly and their trellises happened to be on shriveled during harvest time, making all of that work building them pointless.

 

 

As I said in another reply, I'm more than open to options that may give them a bit more of an edge. Sadly we can't always do what everyone demands. We must do what the game demands. For the half-dozen individuals who have spoken up about this here, I've had at least 3 people who are not known for forum posting send me direct PMs telling me that the change is good.

 

Just because the change isn't what you want does not mean we are not acting in the best interest for the base as a whole. So given that we will not be reverting the change thus far, I encourage you to provide suggestions that may keep in the intent of this change but also bring trellises more on par with what you are expecting.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Keenan said:

Just because the change isn't what you want does not mean we are not acting in the best interest for the base as a whole. So given that we will not be reverting the change thus far, I encourage you to provide suggestions that may keep in the intent of this change but also bring trellises more on par with what you are expecting.

Make the yield of a trellis comparable to a farm tile since it will require far more attention than a farm tile.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Morhedron said:

Make the yield of a trellis comparable to a farm tile since it will require far more attention than a farm tile.

 

That's a fair point and I will raise it with the rest of the team. The only issue I see with this idea is that you can have four on a tile. I'd have to see what the yields are now when considering this.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Morhedron said:

Make the yield of a trellis comparable to a farm tile since it will require far more attention than a farm tile.

That would honestly be something a bit overpowered imho, and will bring them back to be better than before this nerf.
I mean, fruits have always been harder to obtain than crops.

I don't think the point of this thread is "more grapes for everyone"
It's just that a skill that probably didn't even need any nerf got nerfed without reason.
and that nerf has been done in a way that makes the whole thing just more annoying and frustrating.

If you really want to make it harder, as i said, make yield dependant from ql of trellis too (just not 1:1)
And if possible add a few more kind of trellies to make gardening a vaguely decent skill again

But please not this, we don't want to have to craft things that rely on a completely different skill just to have a smaller versions of grape bushes that will overage and die.

And i can swear that you would only see less but bigger trellis farm, taking up more space and creating more fps drops.

At least, that's what i will do if nothing changes, because i can't afford to be back at harvesting bushes now that i have 50 forestry and 80 gardening.

So i will just make 500 more trellis and be annoyed from the overaged/young ones while gathering them, and i think this is overall a bad thing

 

Edited by Davih

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this