Fraeya

Please fix the lag on xanadu

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2 hours ago, Retrograde said:

We;ve taken many large steps in addressing it, but it's not a simple case of not enough hardware or a "lag = false" thing, it's a lot of optimisation work and improvements, which are constantly ongoing.

 

1 hour ago, Rathgar said:

 Maybe if you would comment on any of the KNOWN issues, with something more specific than "optimization".  Like, is it because of the mobs AI ? Is it because of checking that ammount of tiles, or some other less obvious issue that arises from scaling up the server in the current engine.

Throw us a bone Retro, anything.

 

@Retrograde

Thank you for the reply but as Rathgar said could you please be a lot more specific on what exactly the issue is? There are 2 main problems experienced; the overall server polling/tick rate and the actual latency issues that creep up almost daily causing a desync from the server and a solid refreshing right click menu. Could you please give us some further details about both of these issues.

Is it the amount of items or the creature AI? If half of xanadu's creatures weren't stuck on a mountainside where no one could get to them then you wouldn't need so many active spawns so that could help if it were causing server lag.

Is it simply the amount of players connected to the server at once all sending client>server requests and so forth?

Is it just the general tile information checks, domain checks etc?

Or is the hardware just not good enough? Maybe running on a pentium 2 with 64MB of ram?

 

Is the daily lag and sluggish performance related to a server based memory leak? The server has been up for 12 1/2 days and the longer it runs it seems the more likely it is to crash and burn. Perhaps start a weekly or bi-weekly maintenance cycle to restart the servers for non patch weeks?

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1 hour ago, Amadee said:

 

Sure. While this may sound like a "good" solution on paper, in actuality it would be a disaster for those who would be forced to move. Some people may not care or are maybe not as attached to their location as others, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the majority of Xanites who haven't already moved away would be horrified at the prospect.

 

I know that speaking for myself, I've put a lot of time, effort, and love, into my deeds on Xana.  I love my location, my neighbors, my grotto & harbor, the terrain and proximity of my deeds to each other, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.  The grotto alone took me over a year to create and it's still somewhat of a work in progress to this day.  The very idea of being forced to just walk away from it all, try to find a suitable location on another server, and start all over again now after all this time and effort just makes me nauseous.  I honestly don't know that I'd even try.  That might be the incentive I'd need to try WU or find another game.

 

I don't know what the solution is, but in the meantime the perma-lag on Xan is something I've learned to live with for the sake of, and love of, my location and my desire to stay there. For me, it's better than the alternative of walking away from it all.  I will just trust that they are aware of it and working on it, and always keep my fingers crossed that someday they'll hit on a permanent solution. 

 

Closing the server is, imo, the absolute worst solution I can think of.

 

I understand your valid points.  However, needing to try WU or finding another game has the same effect as moving to another server.  Only, moving allows you to do what Wurmians are known for - starting fresh somewhere else.  Whereas, the former decisions would probably make you more miserable.

 

Learning to live with the lag actually hinders your progress.

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I don't think the upkeep costs on the server is huge - as Wurm Unlimited proven wurm is not really resource hungry on server side. I doubt running Xanadu could be a cause of Wurm budget falling apart.

It would surely make a lot of people leave the game - plenty of us have established life on Xanadu ho would better leave for WU or other games than restart their deeds on other WO servers. The Xana lag is not unbearable although can be annoying when the server is in bad mood.

Also having a live server for anti lag improvements testing is a nce feat for CC devs :D

 

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2 minutes ago, Eyesgood said:

 

I understand your valid points.  However, needing to try WU or finding another game has the same effect as moving to another server.  Only, moving allows you to do what Wurmians are known for - starting fresh somewhere else.  Whereas, the former decisions would probably make you more miserable.

 

Learning to live with the lag actually hinders your progress.

 

No, actually after having started over a few times in Wurm already due to not having found my "ideal" place yet, it's more along the lines of my having finally found the place I desire to stay, and if I'm to start over again because someone decided it's in my best interest, I'll do it on my own terms.

 

But my personal reasons are really beside the point. The point is that I believe the majority of Xanites feel the same for a variety of reasons.  I also believe that a solution will be found eventually that will not require everyone on Xan to walk away from everything they've worked for.

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1 minute ago, Amadee said:

 

No, actually after having started over a few times in Wurm already due to not having found my "ideal" place yet, it's more along the lines of my having finally found the place I desire to stay, and if I'm to start over again because someone decided it's in my best interest, I'll do it on my own terms.

 

But my personal reasons are really beside the point. The point is that I believe the majority of Xanites feel the same for a variety of reasons.  I also believe that a solution will be found eventually that will not require everyone on Xan to walk away from everything they've worked for.

 

well met.

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Xanado so funny, for a while everyone complained that there was no hunting on xanado, now people travel to xanado to hunt, but now complain about the lag.

 

I think you can't have it both ways, the server is just to bloody big, pick no lag or pic no hunting.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

Xanado so funny, for a while everyone complained that there was no hunting on xanado, now people travel to xanado to hunt, but now complain about the lag.

I think you can't have it both ways, the server is just to bloody big, pick no lag or pic no hunting.

 

It's always been laggy and the hunting has always been good in the north and bad in the south. 

I dunno why you think something was changed and anything is different. But no it's not a pick and choose situation and tbh that's not your place to call.

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As a resident of Xanadu, I witness the lag on regular occasions. As a former Pristine player, I've seen much better handling of things.

Honestly, if the decision were 'Just close the server and make people move'...I'd move...for the final third time. Off Wurm, permanently. Taking my money with me.

 

I've already been pondering it, as I'm growing bored/sick of the lack of action on multiple fronts. I don't pay for games that stagnate.

 

An example? The boat market used to get 15s for a knarr. Nowadays? Lucky if you could get 6-8s. That's not an example of a 'functional' economy.

Like others, I"m 'keeping an eye out for the next best thing' game-wise. I've been watching MassivelyOP.com's game news about a lot of different games...I originally found Wurm at the very bottom of their game list (Alphabetical). Wurm even gets an occasional mention over there, but it's not generally things that make you like 'Oh, that sounds cool'...it's usually little updates that you're like 'Um, that should've been added ages ago...'...and while I get that the game has a small team, and is a very niche game....it certainly could be doing a lot better than it is.

 

When a large percentage of your player-base is suggesting fixing things, and the overall response is a blasé / tepid response about how you've done little minor things and not bothered to fix an on-going (for approximately 2-3 years) issue, it certainly doesn't give one a pleasant feeling for the future of the game.

While lag usually isn't 'game-ending', it is certainly frustrating to deal with and when you're a paying member you're like 'Why am I paying for this (self-censor)?'. I used to play on a single-shard server on another game that had lag for days (Yes, overly boasting...it was probably just little blips of lag, but it's the stuff you remember about a game)...where if you lagged...inertia carried your character farther and/or could run you into harms way. I'm starting to feel like Xanadu lag is just like that, where it could kill me if it happens at the wrong time...(Say, fighting a troll and it lags right as I need to break off/run away and heal). I've worked my behind off to get all the skills up to where they are at. Death penalty would remove tiny bits from 5-7 skills, and really hit my Fight skill. Now, luckily, I give myself a large enough 'margin of error' and back off from a fight long before it's looking that bad...but I've had a few close calls of late.

The lag on Xanadu hits at random times. Sometimes it's just a menu refreshing for a little too long. Other times ('backup lag')...it's like the game locks up/freezes solid, won't do anything for about 2-3 minutes. Maybe it's caused by the mob issue, maybe it's not. We don't know (Because 'the powers that be - Yeah, I'm looking at you staff people) because nobody will tell us what the deal is. We're just meant to suck it up and 'deal'. But what happens when enough people get tired of being told to 'just deal with it'? Ever heard of rebellions? In this case...people just leave. You don't hear from them again. The game loses another person. There's an occasional thread where someone suggests what might've been their problem (Thanks Fraeya for linking multiiples). Other times, you just don't know what caused their disappearance...as they are just gone. Some people sit around in fora/forums expressing their discontent/hoping someone will change/fix/DO SOMETHING. But a lot just give up or say 'It's not my problem anymore...'

Is the lag enough of a reason for you? (Rhetorical question...as those who would respond are likely to say no or are by virtue of sticking it out...not to be the people it would be referenced to.)

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10 hours ago, Rathgar said:

 

That is the blandest answer I have seen all month, and I have been watching a lot of political interviews.   It sounds as if you are dodging the issue, but it does nothing for the players.  Maybe if you would comment on any of the KNOWN issues, with something more specific than "optimization".  Like, is it because of the mobs AI ? Is it because of checking that ammount of tiles, or some other less obvious issue that arises from scaling up the server in the current engine.

Throw us a bone Retro, anything.

 

It's because of literally everything, all put together. There is no simple "fix" to lag on Xanadu, and there never will be. What Retro said is correct, we optimize things when we can and every change we make has lag in mind, trying to keep it all to a minimum. The fact is that Xanadu is just pushing the limits of what Wurm can handle. At least 4x the map size of any other server is going to cause a lot of difference on it's own - then throw in 300k creatures compared to Indy's 50k - that's 6x more processing time for creatures. On top of that throw the increased playerbase, with Xanadu being the most populous server for a long while - and that just adds on top of everything.

 

We do what we can, but numbers quickly add up. Yes we're optimizing for it but there's not some simple fix that will magically fix everything - Xanadu will always have more lag than other servers just because of the numbers involved.

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Not taking a shot at your reply, Budda, in fact the honesty and directness is appreciated.... 

 

Xanadu should be marked as "Experimental" since it IS quite the code limitation test bed and the pre-launch test runs were really not enough as many of us said back then... 

 

And well, post a big warning about it for new players "aiming big" regarding those issues, and give it a 20% discount on deed costs.

 

A huge part of my falling out of love with WO was having to leave my Xanadu deed when I realized that that server was never gonna be quite right.  The return to Release kinda hurt and the feeling of being cramped in (original reason to head for Xana) increased tenfold.

 

My 2 copper

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46 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

 

And well, post a big warning about it for new players "aiming big" regarding those issues, and give it a 20% discount on deed costs.

 

Fun fact: deed upkeep polling is also laggy, and upkeep will actually last longer than it states, this also happens with sleep bonus calculations, meaning deed upkeep lasts longer and so does sleep bonus, it's considered unintended, but as long as the lag is there it's accepted as compensation

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Yeah seriously, don't fix the lag on Xanadu or you'll spoil it for all of us.

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5 hours ago, Budda said:

 

It's because of literally everything, all put together. There is no simple "fix" to lag on Xanadu, and there never will be. What Retro said is correct, we optimize things when we can and every change we make has lag in mind, trying to keep it all to a minimum. The fact is that Xanadu is just pushing the limits of what Wurm can handle. At least 4x the map size of any other server is going to cause a lot of difference on it's own - then throw in 300k creatures compared to Indy's 50k - that's 6x more processing time for creatures. On top of that throw the increased playerbase, with Xanadu being the most populous server for a long while - and that just adds on top of everything.

 

We do what we can, but numbers quickly add up. Yes we're optimizing for it but there's not some simple fix that will magically fix everything - Xanadu will always have more lag than other servers just because of the numbers involved.

 

Sorry, just cannot resist

 

 

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Today lag caused me to get stuck. I walked through a gate on a house on a deed while exploring. It led to a reinforced tunnel. On the way back, the door woildnt let me through because its locked... Yet it let me in the first time. Now I am stuck in a mine with no way out. Way to go Xanadu!

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I play for 3 years on Xanadu and yes they are lag spikes but nothing to make it not playable anymore.

For me it's simple: if you like a big island where you can have a hermit deed then you have to take a bit of lag with it.

If you don't like the lag they are lots of other (smaller) islands.

Closing Xanadu is end game for me!

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As an Australian I think latency is also a big part of it, I'm used to wurm with lag(it actually weirds me out when I play Wu locally, my timing is all off) and I think can lag + latency is what compounds the issue more, so bear in mind while you may experience just spikes, it's possible others are experiencing latency + spikes which makes it worse

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I often end up having to wait for nearly a minute for doors to open, or have to moor my ship so the server can catch up with me, or stop my cart, or end up dead after a lag spike where the mob in front of me beats me to a pulp in 2 seconds after the server resolves how many times it should had hit me in that time.

 

Xanalag can render the game unplayable for many. "Move to another server" is not an answer. Its like your service provider telling you to move to another house where their connection is better. 

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4 hours ago, Chakron said:

Yeah seriously, don't fix the lag on Xanadu or you'll spoil it for all of us.

this. so much this. the sb lag and the sillyness of mob density in the north are the only reasons i stay on xanadu occasionally.

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11 hours ago, Budda said:

It's because of literally everything, all put together. There is no simple "fix" to lag on Xanadu, and there never will be. What Retro said is correct, we optimize things when we can and every change we make has lag in mind, trying to keep it all to a minimum. The fact is that Xanadu is just pushing the limits of what Wurm can handle. At least 4x the map size of any other server is going to cause a lot of difference on it's own - then throw in 300k creatures compared to Indy's 50k - that's 6x more processing time for creatures. On top of that throw the increased playerbase, with Xanadu being the most populous server for a long while - and that just adds on top of everything.

We do what we can, but numbers quickly add up. Yes we're optimizing for it but there's not some simple fix that will magically fix everything - Xanadu will always have more lag than other servers just because of the numbers involved.

@Budda

Thanks for the slightly more in-depth reply. I can understand that optimisation is an ongoing procedure but perhaps it's time to direct more resources and time towards it? New stuff is cool and all but if there is no one left to play 'cause they got fed up of the bugs and lag it's kinda pointless. I have 4 main problems with Wurm; lag on xanadu, poor optimisation, bugs and the current state of the in-game economy. All of those things can be fixed in my eyes by bug fixing and optimisation.

 

I think the game will be able to hold it's self up with what it has at the minute.

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I don't personally have a deed on xan (for obviously reasons above), but i do know that xan is where most of the newer players start as well, as the explanation of servers is pretty poor IMO. That said, shuffling all the new players to the lagiest server for a game that has a pretty specific niche only increases the number of players who quit over minor issues. Maybe a better distribution of new players could help alleviate the issues, and perhaps increase the amount of people who actually stick around, thus increasing funding for potential fixes and upgrades... I know I have personally countless times rescued new players from xan who were thinking of quitting within hours of playing because of the instability issues there. NO ONE wants to start a new game and spend there first few hours trying to figure out how to work around the lag/issues in a game that already has an extremely high learning curve. Basically i think what i comes down to is the dream of xan was too big for the server/engines capabilities when it started and still is. Its a detrimental cycle that will not end without dramatic action. Java is inherently unstable, and has TONS of compatibility issues with all sorts of hardware and software.

 

Someone mentioned marking xan and experimental, great idea. At least people would have a better idea what there getting into.

 

In terms of migrating ppl to other servers, perhaps make it easier to accomplish like having a way to reclaim traders/merchants/ maybe even materials to resettle on other servers.

 

Mobs on xan are pretty rediculous, a huge portion of xan is mountains and huge portion of the critters are not even remotely reachable by players. Maybe try and prevent them from spawning in places that are largly uninhabited stone area's. Coupled with decreasing the amount of spawns if they were spawning in more suitable locations. Perhaps increase wild disease to further cull the excessive and  non accessible mobs.

 

In my limited experience with coding Java, of the various potential server loads, mobs seem like the most easily addressable problem right now, if you could in theory cut the mob count in half and place the remainders where they can be accessed. this would be a HUGE reduction in server load for AI ticks. with no real noticeable difference to the players of the server other then less lag.

 

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I'm usually "ok" with the regular xanadu lag, i always play the 'open sesame' game at gates or pretend i have to insert my pin code to be able to pass through, and it's fun to an extent, but lately the lag is getting terrible, i'm drifting with the horse for 2-3min and have to stop for 20-30 seconds because of the 'You are moving too fast..' message for the server to update my position. Nobody can enjoy exploring the island in the current state the server is in.. If a restart can fix this issue (The server has been up 13 days, 15 hours and 23 minutes.) I'm sure everyone would be ok with a maintenance restart every day or every other day..

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I have a deed on Xanadu but personally I haven't noticed many lag related issues, perhaps being in Europe helps due to a lower latency, or I'm simply not online during the worst moments of lag.

 

I'd wonder if a different animal system couldn't help reduce the lag. For example, how many of those 300k animals are in the wild (so not penned in, on deed, hitched, branded, etc) and near a player at any given time? If nobody is near the creature then why does it continue to exist? It's existence is only really necessary when a player is close enough to it it (as in, could see it), the rest of the time it might as well not exist. Obviously that sounds much simpler than it actually is, as you don't want penned or branded animals to vanish, etc, but it sounds like resources are being wasted simulating animals which nobody can see and which barely have an effect on the world (besides paving a tile here and there..)

 

Perhaps it could also keep track of how many animals have recently been killed in an area, the lower this amount the more animals would be spawn when a player comes near the area (anything else currently affecting spawns, like deeds and terrain type, should continue to do so). Then after a player hasn't been near that area for a while you'd despawn the creatures again. Areas where recently creatures haven't been killed much could also on average spawn older creatures than areas which see a lot of hunting, thus encouraging players to switch up hunting areas and explore.

 

It could also help address the issue of stuck animals in unreachable areas, and it could fix the difference in animal density between north and south. But it's likely a pretty complex and time intensive system to build.

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Xan lag is the reason I disbanded and moved off Xan a few months ago.   3 years waiting for a problem to be fixed was just to long.   In all honestly, that's probably your best option, unless you feel like waiting a few more years.

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26 minutes ago, Greyfox said:

Xan lag is the reason I disbanded and moved off Xan a few months ago.   3 years waiting for a problem to be fixed was just to long.   In all honestly, that's probably your best option, unless you feel like waiting a few more years.

I second that. Attention all Xan people, we welcome you to every other server with open arms. :D

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11 minutes ago, Matholameu said:

I second that. Attention all Xan people, we welcome you to every other server with open arms. :D

 

It took me over a week to pack and move TO Xan from Pristine (I had less then.), and also required hitching a ride to go back for my other boat

Unlike most folks, I don't run alts. It was a promise I made to myself before even starting this game due to my over-doing on other games...if I play Wurm, I won't alt. (I had a serious altitis problem before coming to Wurm. On the scale of multiple servers worth of characters.)

Even if I wanted to, I'd have to leave a lot behind. I still haven't built any buildings since I came back, so technically I could uproot myself, but I have x7 BSB worth of stuff + 3 FSB + wagon + cart + a bunch of other items that require loading. I've done LOADS of work making a beautiful coastal spot how I want it. Last time I left behind 2 cogs and a corb and a rowboat, and had to travel back to sell the corb. The cogs + rowboat just went boom. My last break ate a knarr also, but I luckily had 2 because of some jerk following me around harassing me so I couldn't sell the last knarr. So I have a caravel and a knarr and a rowboat now. This game doesn't make it 'easy' to move on, unless one wants to start over. Some of us don't want to, as we've worked hard to get where we are.

I'd probably have to spend hours just looking for a similar spot on another server too. (It took 2 WEEKS of sailing all over Xan to find what I found here.)

That's the kind of time investment you're asking people for here. Rather than them fixing the lag problem.

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