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Odynn

Traders and economy.

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Here we are again with another one of the Odynn's post. This time about the economy, free coins and the now useless and utterly broken traders.

 

Wurm economy in it's current state is actually suffering, the pyramidal scheme need fresh players to keep it alive and provide work opportunity for the olders established players. I won't go into the details but it's easy to see how and why that system is not really viable.

 

We all know that Rolf following a few of our most vocal community members nerfed the traders into the ground. Indeed the cash they received on Pristine / Release was insane due to the lack of people owning them, but the average on the olders servers when from 5/7s per month to nothing. On the other hand the newly added mechanisms like forage/botanise - selling to the token - killing creatures - burying them are not balanced properly. Someone botanising daily can reach a gold per month easilly without investing a cents in Wurm.

 

Traders then, what is their point anymore if you only gain 20c per month and pay 35s. Well, none, and that's the issue, instead of investing on Wurm future and spending money, you are better off foraging and botanising all day long, draining the coffers (specially since there is no traders reserved funds - which was something Rolf was supposed to implement).

 

Why give again large amount of money to traders owners, they are stealing from everyone else some will say. Well, investing into Wurm and being a part of the economy thanks to the traders always seemed a good point to me. I mean, they won't judge your 50ql spindle and ease your money spent on the deed upkeep afterall.

 

And this is exactly the idea. Limit the traders income to 80 to 150% of their deed upkeep. This would mark the end of the trader deeds (80c to 1s50 for a 1s deed monthly deed upkeep) but would help the larger deeds to pay for their upkeep and make wurm less costly. Keeping in the long run people pay large amount of premium. Reducing the distance cap between them, maybe their price and limiting their incomes to 5s per traders (can have multiple on a deed though - deed upkeep divided by traders amount and with a random variable on it - capped to 5s per to prevent abuses) would make it worth investing in them again. This new system would make them worth to have on Xanadu as well (no more abuses) and if there is still no reserved money for them, get their payout at the start of the month (instead of all over the 28 days) leaving the rest of the funds available for all the others money distribution ways.

 

For the others distribution ways to work properly though it will require a large balancing on the different ratio (and a nerf on the forage / botanise coins).

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Money going from the trader to deed upkeep back to the trader isn't investing in the economy, it's a closed loop.

 

What Traders really are is a vestigial, underdeveloped NPC economy. Redeveloping it as something the general population can actually participate in rather than having so-called "traders" locked away for deed upkeep would be worthwhile. All the ways of getting "free silver" (not bought with real money) are rather silly at the moment and need a rework, traders included.

 

The cost of deed upkeep is another issue.

Edited by Darmalus
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19 minutes ago, Darmalus said:

Money going from the trader to deed upkeep back to the trader isn't investing in the economy, it's a closed loop.

 

I know that if traders helped me with my deed upkeep (currently 8.4s/month on one deed) I'd have more money to spend in the economy, so... Yes, it is an investment. Just not a direct one.

 

+1 to the suggestion, Odynn.

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No, -1, sorry, but no.

1 hour ago, Odynn said:

Traders then, what is their point anymore if you only gain 20c per month and pay 35s. Well, none, and that's the issue, instead of investing on Wurm future and spending money,

There's the rub.

You want to reward people investing in Wurm and its future?  I buy my premium from CCAB directly, every month, plus silver, every month.  That is supporting wurm.

 

Trying to bring back a system where someone pays 35s, then makes all their money back, then don't spend another dime ever and just use the trader to pay for everything they need, plus for some even go on to sell silver for real money...

 

No, just no.

 

Botanizing and foraging may be broken, ok, sure, so fix that.  The ship has sailed on your traders giving you free money at everyone else's expense.  Supporting Wurm is a great idea.  Do that instead.

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Sorry but this is a -1 from me as it stands.

 

Traders simply gave more experienced players more money to spend.  We're not short on rich older players, what we're short of is newer players with disposable income.

 

Buff traders sure, but make it based on how much people use them.  If you buy a cash shop item from a trader, the trader owner gets a percentage.  Nice and easy.

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1 hour ago, Odynn said:

Traders then, what is their point anymore

I agree. If you are paying for a Trader with the intent to make a huge profit within a short period of time then there is little point in doing so, which is a good thing. It would seem that the old silver coin money machine Trader mechanism is a thing of the past, although I am not too sure that some people are underplaying the actual amounts that they currently make from them. Keeping a low profile is always best in these matters.

 

1 hour ago, Odynn said:

On the other hand the newly added mechanisms like forage/botanise - selling to the token - killing creatures - burying them are not balanced properly.

If the botanize/forage abilities are dropping excessive coinage then they should be adjusted downwards as well rather than upping Trader draining in response. You don't fix an issue by following the excesses of another. Also, I don't think players are too reliable of a source in this respect as well when the brag about how much "gold" they make from f&b.

 

A better fix for Traders would be to just reduce their price to 10 silver and make them like Merchants that wouldn't *purchase* any items from players. Then they could also have the 50 tile restriction removed too. Existing Traders would receive this adjustment since they have long since paid out any funds used to purchased them initially.

 

=Ayes=

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-1

 

If you want to make money, slay another goblin leader and don't invite anyone like last time.

Edited by Wargasm
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I don't know what you people do to your traders, but mine still gives a few silver per month, which is enough to keep my minideed ticking over.

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21 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

If you want to make money, slay another goblin leader and don't invite anyone like last time.

 

Nope, sorry, it's a broken things when people do this and it's not even how we do it on Deli... so moot point.

 

1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

Traders simply gave more experienced players more money to spend.  We're not short on rich older players, what we're short of is newer players with disposable income.

 

If you read my suggestion, anyone can buy in traders paying money toward CCAB and investing on the future. They wouldn't be worth it for small deeds, but would allow anyone willing to expand and get something bigger to lift some of the costs.

 

1 hour ago, Reylaark said:

Trying to bring back a system where someone pays 35s, then makes all their money back, then don't spend another dime ever and just use the trader to pay for everything they need, plus for some even go on to sell silver for real money...

 

No, just no.

 

Botanizing and foraging may be broken, ok, sure, so fix that.  The ship has sailed on your traders giving you free money at everyone else's expense.  Supporting Wurm is a great idea.  Do that instead.

 

Seems like you half read the suggestion. Specially the part where you limit the income of traders, only allowing active players to get money to reduce some of their deed upkeep expenses and prevent the whole farming all together.

 

The idea is not investing into CCAB future. The idea is to invest on your future in Wurm by paying CCAB a larger amount from the start and then paying less every month. Which is a common model in others MMo where real money is involved (alright, often the P2W ones where you generate tokens of some kind by paying a large sum straight off)... Wurm model asking you to pay for premium - land - and deed upkeep.

 

Paying for everything is nice, congrats to you, but is it a bad thing to keep players paying many golds to set up their deeds and have them pay up even more to reduce their charges and pay premium every month with a lessen upkeep - than have those players deciding Wurm is becoming too costly and leave everything altogether behind them.

 

This is happening, some of our largest paying players are leaving, deeds are disbanding, players are dropping their deeds amounts and the whole pay into CCAB is reducing.

 

2 hours ago, Darmalus said:

Money going from the trader to deed upkeep back to the trader isn't investing in the economy, it's a closed loop.

 

Money coming from someones deed upkeep to someone not investing in either deed upkeep or premium paying CCAB directly ain't better... it's actually worse. But people who whinned about the traders do not about these broken ways to give free silvers to people refusing to invest a dime into Wurm.

 

As for the free coins system being broken. It was raised countless time before, by myself even when Rolf was still in charge (and I was in the team)... balance is not a priority when it comes to whoever yell the louder.

 

10 minutes ago, Wonka said:

I don't know what you people do to your traders, but mine still gives a few silver per month, which is enough to keep my minideed ticking over.

 

Depends on your server, the amount of people draining the kingdom funds and how much upkeep you pay. If you pay less than 2s per month, you might make your money back. Start paying more than that and traders would really be interesting.

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Mm  I would love to have a trader on xana.

 

+1

Edited by bangzuvelis

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9 minutes ago, Odynn said:

If you read my suggestion, anyone can buy in traders paying money toward CCAB and investing on the future. They wouldn't be worth it for small deeds, but would allow anyone willing to expand and get something bigger to lift some of the costs.,

1

 

This looks like a return to the old status quo since we'll simply see a mass influx of traders so that the coffers are empty for everyone else.

 

More money for CC!  Good thing right?  Wurm unlimited was more money for CC, look how that worked out.

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i told year ago that all traders went broken and not geting any coins at all at any rate...    so here we are again...  and yes market owner of 9 markets all over xanadu i see drop in sales ...  why_?   no noobs no money ingame,...  poor economy...  hard to buy bulk hard to sell bulk...  its over....   some REFRESH is welcome team :D    no more green hads

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5 minutes ago, Sila said:

i told year ago that all traders went broken and not geting any coins at all at any rate...    so here we are again...  and yes market owner of 9 markets all over xanadu i see drop in sales ...  why_?   no noobs no money ingame,...  poor economy...  hard to buy bulk hard to sell bulk...  its over....   some REFRESH is welcome team :D    no more green hads

there is no decay, no 5% bulk loss on deed, no weapon enchants decay, food gives 10% boost (temp. affinity) towards easier skill gain, rares are more common than non rares - we all asked for it and now we are where we are.

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2 minutes ago, bangzuvelis said:

+1, because x1.5 deed upkeep's ratio comes to x15 if you have 10 traders, right? 

 

 

3 hours ago, Odynn said:

(can have multiple on a deed though - deed upkeep divided by traders amount and with a random variable on it - capped to 5s per to prevent abuses)

 

Hehe, well thought, but in my glorious plan to farm the traders and get all the muney (sic... lets hope some people will get the irony), i went ahead of you there... So no, 10 traders on your 1s deed would still bring you 1s for all the traders... maybe 1s50 if you are lucky.

 

So if you do pay 50s per month on a really large deed, then 10 or more traders would help you to lift some of the upkeep burden though. Say you have 12 traders, 50/12 would give you 4s16 per traders... add to that a 80/150% coefficient and you'd get 3s32 to 5s (due to the cap, 6s24 normally). Which by that simple example means you'd have to pay for a bit more traders to get into your fund every months.

 

4 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

This looks like a return to the old status quo since we'll simply see a mass influx of traders so that the coffers are empty for everyone else.

 

More money for CC!  Good thing right?  Wurm unlimited was more money for CC, look how that worked out.

 

You pay upkeep to your deed, you get your upkeep back, all others money sinks are still here and from the reaction of some... doesn't means anyone will want to invest (some new players do invest in traders still and are horrified by their low output... wurm gone wrong here). The matter is balancing all money incomes properly, traders shouldn't drain all the coffers cash... as the forage / botanise shouldn't drain 80% of it as it is actually.

 

Thank you for raising Wurm Unlimited, which is another good example of why this would be a good change. Wurm unlimited is a pay once and don't spend a dime forever. Wurm Online is a pay every month for deed upkeep and premium. Once again, if the deed upkeeps can be made cheaper people would have less reasons to leave for the one time payment that is Unlimited.

 

In the example mentionned above, yup over the top, but some people do spend that much money on wurm upkeep, we are talking of a starting deed investment of 500 € and an extra investment of 420 € this is not a small amount at all (and would start to balance itself after 8/9 months - yes count mayor alts premium into it please).

 

Game is made by the community, keeping the community playing and the game alive is important, driving people away toward others cheapers game is not.

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4 minutes ago, bangzuvelis said:

there is no decay, no 5% bulk loss on deed, no weapon enchants decay, food gives 10% boost (temp. affinity) towards easier skill gain, rares are more common than non rares - we all asked for it and now we are where we are.

True.. staff is after quick and cheap popularity. But fact is, all those QoL changes as they call it, will bite deeply into the economy. What fuels economy? Need! What created need in Wurm? To be blunt, it was exactly the fact, that most stuff was so boring and hard to make, that you simply paid someone else to do it. That has been taken away.. and here we are.

 

Talking about traders. I always found it funny, how there was a vocal crowd, who was against traders, because they were giving out free money.. yet now there is botanizing, butchering etc and now the free money is completely ok.

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15 minutes ago, rixk said:

Talking about traders. I always found it funny, how there was a vocal crowd, who was against traders, because they were giving out free money.. yet now there is botanizing, butchering etc and now the free money is completely ok.

 

Haha, so true my good man, so true. Even more now that the imbalance is even greater.

 

Paying to get free money is bad... oh shame on those of you who invest and hope to make your money back... but  free cash is good, lets all pray to have more of it without any changes breaking that current broken status quo.

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On the contrary, I feel that both traders and botanizing money are both bad. The method of getting free silver I like best is the one for burying corpses, because then you are at least randomly rewarded for keeping the road clean (the original intention, IIRC).

 

But even that feels like a written-on-a-napkin rough draft, not a well designed solution or game mechanic.

 

Ripping out all the current free silver sources and replacing them with one that required actively playing the game and encouraged desired behavior would be best.

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If CCAB needed a rapid influx of capital or the doors will shut, this could be an option.  As it is though, you have to think of the return on your 35s over a very long time.

 

Small time player like me:

  1. I generally keep my deeds at 1s upkeep, sometimes +templar, sometimes much larger but currently, 1s.  At the very least, I'm paying $10 per month (premium+1s).  For CCAB, that's 12*10=$120/year
  2. Now I buy a 35s trader, for my 1s deed.  Let's say, on average(0.80s to 1.5s), I get 1s/month from my trader.  12s/year.
  3. I also no longer need to buy the 1s from CCAB, so I opt for 2 months upkeep @ $18.  I'm saving 2$/month, so 24$/year.
  4. So in one given year, CCAB made $120+35$-12$-24$=$119.  After one year, no change for CCAB, my trader is paid for.
  5. The next year, only change is I don't need to get a new trader.  So, CCAB gets $120-$12-24$=$84/year from then on.
  6. They would otherwise have gotten $120/year each year.  They've lost, so far, 1$(first year)+$36(second year) = $37, adding a $36 loss every year thereafter.

I mean, are you essentially saying that you have a gigantic deed, but can't afford it, so want a system in place to offset the cost?

 

Somehow, I'm not so sure that a lot of new players are running out to buy 35s traders so they can milk silver from them... only to find themselves disappointed with the return.

New players are trying to figure out how to flat-raise, build stuff, survive an encounter with a croc, build shelter, etc.

They wouldn't know how to game traders without talking to players who have done it in the past, and those players already know better.

 

People who bought traders in the past, made giant deeds, and now can't afford those deeds... well yeah, that's a bummer. 

Sorry Odynn, still at -1.

 

16 minutes ago, Darmalus said:

On the contrary, I feel that both traders and botanizing money are both bad. The method of getting free silver I like best is the one for burying corpses, because then you are at least randomly rewarded for keeping the road clean (the original intention, IIRC).

Ripping out all the current free silver sources and replacing them with one that required actively playing the game and encouraged desired behavior would be best.

I think that was maybe the idea, which I like also.

Thing with botanizing and foraging, they're actions new players would be doing a lot to get food/cotton/etc.  I'm thinking the intent is to get money into new player hands.

The fact that players are out there sucking up all the money out of the ground is unfortunate... but yeah, the focus should be on fixing that.  Not using that to re-introduce another cash-cow, imho.

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I've heard people making around 2-3s (and more) a day from forage/botanize, but that takes hours and I'm pretty sure that few, if any, are "dedicated" enough to do that every day and turn it into an actual "job". The token selling is limited to 5c? per hour or so, so it can't be abused, coins from killing, burying, etc require a lot of actions to get, so only forage/botanize can be actively "mined" with ease, so maybe it should be looked at.. As far as i know, the coin distribution system was aimed towards the new players so they have a few coppers to spend on tools, enchants, good horses, etc, and ease their way into the game.. I hope there is nobody crazy enough to forage for hours every day and sell the silver for real life money.. 

 

But having a system where you pay a lot from the start, get your money back in 8-10 months and never have to pay again.. I honestly can't see the gain for CC with such a system.. since in one year's time from it being implemented, CC's income from upkeep will drop dramatically to only a few coppers/silvers per deed to cover that random difference you mentioned in the suggestion.

 

Having a system that is actually aimed towards the new players is something i find best, since they are the ones that come into a game filled with tons of experienced players, and have nothing to offer them and be part of the economy (excluding the bulk market that turns them into slaves).

 

If the forage/botanize coin distribution is flawed, it should be fixed.

If upkeep is too high on large deeds, maybe upkeep should decrease based on the number of premium villagers it has, which would make recruiting more appealing.

But for the trader system to break you even in 10 months, and allow you to almost have a free deed from that point : -1 from me..

Edited by faty
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2 hours ago, Reylaark said:

Small time player like me:

 

Well, you see that's the issue. You think small. You don't think in term of players paying 3 or more premium per month per years leaving the game, so what is better, get cheaper deed upkeeps... or lose those X per 8€ premium.

 

Cash cows traders are still there on the deeds with low upkeep... so your gripe toward people who do pay large upkeeps and get shafted on their returns is totally unjustified... specially when i'm asking for a more fair system... you pay more, you get more back IF you want to invest on your ingame future.

 

2 hours ago, Reylaark said:

Somehow, I'm not so sure that a lot of new players are running out to buy 35s traders so they can milk silver from them... only to find themselves disappointed with the return.

 

Those who got past the tryout stage you mention are interested in the economy and despite all warnings, some want to try the traders because they don't feel like spending their day foraging. And then they are badly surprised.

 

2 hours ago, faty said:

But having a system where you pay a lot from the start, get your money back in 8-10 months and never have to pay again.. I honestly can't see the gain for CC with such a system.. since in one year's time from it being implemented, CC's income from upkeep will drop dramatically to only a few coppers/silvers per deed to cover that random difference you mentioned in the suggestion.

 

CCAB get cash from the premium paid by the accounts, deed setting cost and upkeep. Most of the silver (ie. not premium ones) are circulated back into the game for a countless loop time. Current system allow traders farming (1s upkeep deed - 2/3s trader income per month if set properly - enjoy free cash), which the suggested one do not and only allow to lessen the upkeep cost (read the above examples).

 

Small time players do not have to rely on this system since they can easilly get cash from any actions (including the forage / bota). Knowing only established players can get full benefits of those systems for which they have to leave the security of their deeds.

 

2 hours ago, faty said:

Having a system that is actually aimed towards the new players is something i find best, since they are the ones that come into a game filled with tons of experienced players, and have nothing to offer them and be part of the economy (excluding the bulk market that turns them into slaves).

 

Well, you see, that's why my first trader was my best friend, he took all the stuff i was grinding without telling me that 40QL spindles were worthless unlike the many established players.

 

Anyway, we can all agree that the system is broken and need to be looked into. It need to be rethough by looking into what was intended, how the different systems are used and how they need to be changed to meet their primary goal.

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9 hours ago, Odynn said:

 

If you read my suggestion, anyone can buy in traders paying money toward CCAB and investing on the future.  

 

 

 

Except they are not really investing in the future of Code Club,  are they?

 

They are paying cash now in the hopes of NOT paying cash for silver later. Because it is a fairly high price upfront, these are people who can afford buying silver, but correctly see it would be smarter to spend a little money upfront in order to AVOID paying more money to Code Club later. This is entirely a strategy to save money and not some sort of "loyalty" to the game. It might have represented an investment in Wurm's early days when the need for some cash upfront was greater than getting more money down the road, but those days are long past now. 

 

Experienced players with either extra time or extra real life cash already know how to play the game "for free".  They buy and sell silver with other players instead of buying through the cash shop, invest in 'buy low sell high" techniques for rares and highly sought trophies, buy and sell the most highly skilled characters,  know how to earn silver in the ingame economy as they have a "lock" on the highest skilled characters. Traders only just extended  the ways for the most experienced players to continue to accrue ingame currency ,,,  and in doing so, spend less investment in Code Club in the long term. New players, in contrast,  have an almost impossible time ever catching up in the ingame economy of maxxed skill characters, so their options are: make mortar and brick for the wealthy, botanize and forage in hopes of getting copper coins, sell hunting loot to tokens for iron coins, or spend real money to Code Club. Those who can, probably spend money buying silver so they can enjoy the game without "working" for advanced players.  Advanced players have more options on earning money. many still DO spend money buying silver but most do not need to past a certain point. the last thing we need is MORE ways for them to not need to contribute to the game's longterm economic health.

 

The logic that buying traders is some sort of "benefit" or "investment" for Code Club is  pretty shallow. it presupposes that CC would benefit a LOT more from having a little cash upfront now, in exchange for not getting more money later. Traders offer a fun and challenging "economy" minigame for veteran players --   that IS an important role, and in fact it is the ONLY positive benefit they actually offer  -- but they do not represent any sort of "investment" in Wurm's future. 

 

I think the reason most of us who oppose this suggestion, do so primarily because we suspect it leads us slowly back to the old system again that we finally escaped from. Encouraging players to once again start buying traders, in hopes of benefiting financially, only opens the door to later suggesting Code Club has some of obligation to make their 'investment" worthwhile -- by increasing once again their monthly return in silver.

 

For a true "invest in Code Club to show your loyalty" program, I would prefer seeing ways to encourage people to buy annual subscriptions at a better savings, and/or offer more "vanity" cashshop purchases such as guild banners/flag, premium hairstyles and fancy "graphics" mounts that have no ingame advantage. It accomplishes the same goal but is a lot more clean and upfront about it than convoluted systems that slowly ease back to the system we had in the past.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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+ and - 1.

Wurm needs to decide if wants to be an RCE or not.  This middle ground has to stop.  Either Wurm is an RCE and the only ways to get silver are though the cash shop or by trading with other players. 
Or it's not an RCE, silver gets pulled from the cash shop and added to loot, basically we go to an ingame currency like most MMOs.
 

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