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Odynn

Traders and economy.

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I was firmly in the anti-trader camp back when, but mainly because I don't think people should ever have what amounts to a money faucet in a game.

The original thought behind the traders was interesting, and if one could disassociate it from the coin aspect of the game, it would once again become a intriguing mechanic.

I purposely moved to Xan because I didn't want anything to do with those things. I didn't want people leeching my upkeep/money I'd paid in/earned with hard work out with them.

I spent money to buy 15s from CC early on, and have kept premium paid up constantly while playing(Some breaks here or there.) with RL money paid to them.

 

I have been able to turn that into over 50 silver, with around 120 days of upkeep paid up on my deed also. I'm able to earn a silver here or there with my skills now, and working on foraging/botanizing/burying corpses/fighting/selling trash to token occasionally rewards me with more.

 

I am now considered a 'vet' on the game, and yet I would still not want to deal with the current iteration of traders, even though I could buy one. The foraging/etc coins pay more than enough to pay my upkeep, as I don't require a max size deed. My upkeep is closer to 1s 50c...and some of that is just mountainside I haven't even turned into functional deed...

I was around during the enclosure rule and the massive trader abuses, so I can remember looking around as a noob and not being able to find any land to even claim as my own, much less finding a way to afford my first deed. I slow lugged corpses to someone else's token when that was literally the only way to make coin(They hadn't added all those other ways yet.) I made a trade with a person for a pile of coins + a few gems I'd found + some other 'valuables' he wanted for my first deed form(10s) way back then. (He probably ripped me off, but I didn't have people to ask about it back then.)

I had to hear my neighbors brag about how much coin they were raking in from these traders as I struggled to even get a tiny fraction of coins just to pay my own way. It certainly wasn't being used as a way to 'benefit' the community. It was more like a way to 'lord it over' people. They owned massive tracts of land making it impossible to do anything, and people having to trek around their deeds (And sometimes die in the process, as most of the gates were locked and nobody was allowed in.). I watched people create deeds just to put a trader hut there and farm it for coin. Never bother to do anything else with the deed...not use the land or anything. Never have anything logged in unless they were getting their monthly stipend of coins.

I read these people commenting about how they did such great and wondrous things for communities, and I'm like 'Well, if people just handed me free money I could do that too...' and this is pretty much the problem. Yeah, anyone who's being handed money they did no more work than sell a measly few things to a trader for...isn't really getting how much work actually went into that coin. Some of us worked our behinds off for it. To be charged a fortune because someone else set a price high because they get it handed to them for little effort...was exhausting. Slow trundling a corpse or 2 across a deed because you can't even ride a horse/commander a cart yet...and getting a whopping few IRONS for it...and people charging silvers for things...that wasn't my definition of a 'community benefit', or things like people divvying out a silver or two for thousands upon thousands of bricks that were often failures as a noob and therefore painful to create, with the on-going jokes about 'slavery' and 'har har' that's so amusing. (Slavery is not a joke. Never was, never will be. Real people lost their lives{Among other things} as others slaves, to blow it off as something to joke about is to condone the behavior, to participate. If you want to participate in slavery, you're a sick individual in my mind.)

I certainly don't see them as a 'good thing' now, but if they were to tweak them and make it useful, turn it into a little mini economy game, it would be nice, but they'd need to enforce some specific rules on them...such as nobody being allowed to seal them in a building(Hard-coded, so no way to get around it.)...so they would be open to the public/anyone who passed by...I could see it being used as a way to balance out up-keeps...not by giving money, but by the very existence of the thing on your deed effecting the upkeep requirement of the deed in which it was employed in some way...perhaps make them so that the more people who visit/use them/or interact with them it increases some percentage of something...it would help the actual people who have folks around on their deeds regularly.

Of course, you'd have to make them serve some purpose other than as a money spigot...which kind of defeats the hopes here in this thread.

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2 hours ago, Fairyshine said:

 I can say from experience that those who invested in traders to help them pay for their deed upkeep, are also those who more routinely buy silvers from the game shop, but I may be wrong.  They will still buy those silvers no traders no longer support their deed upkeep, but they will be less inclined to share it around to others in game as there really is not that much to go around.

 

You literally have zero proof of this. You have absolutely no proof outside of anecdotal evidence to prop up your argument.

 

2 hours ago, Fairyshine said:

Retention of players who are willing to spend real life money on this game is beneficial for every player. 

 

Great. That's true. Now how the heck do traders get involved? They don't. Except to arbitrarily give extra money for some people.

 

"But some of that money eventually gets spent...sometimes...on the random noob. Once in a blue moon, I guess?"

 

Why not give money directly those noobs?

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33 minutes ago, Hailene said:

<stuff>

 

I'm not sure you understand that the "free coins" come from the money everyone is paying into upkeep... giving back a fraction of the cash you spend is not extra money or free money coming from others pocket... with the way it's suggested, you (hailene and others haters) are not fattening your traders overlords, they are just paying for themselves.

 

Also remember that telling people to leave the game if the large deeds become too expensive means less money for everyone else... since those large deeds pay into the kingdom funds, when you pay 3/5s into upkeep and make through any others means than the shop 10s, you are making money, when you pay 20+s into upkeep and only making back 10s, you are throwing money to everyone else and being insulted for it.

 

37 minutes ago, Corsan said:

such as nobody being allowed to seal them in a building(Hard-coded, so no way to get around it.)...so they would be open to the public/anyone who passed by...I could see it being used as a way to balance out up-keeps...not by giving money, but by the very existence of the thing on your deed effecting the upkeep requirement of the deed in which it was employed in some way...perhaps make them so that the more people who visit/use them/or interact with them it increases some percentage of something...it would help the actual people who have folks around on their deeds regularly

 

That's one of the troubles, I used to have a public trader like that to help with the stadium on deliverance, not only i paid for the trader, but it give nothing back toward the upkeep, so I also had to lock it up. Greed and attitude toward money is always an issue in this game and just like some will take anything not nailed to the ground, others will just take all the possible money without thinking about others. Traders have to be locked for the only reasons anyone can drain them... no matter if you paid for it... or are just riding around draining all accessible traders.

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5 minutes ago, Odynn said:

Also remember that telling people to leave the game if the large deeds become too expensive means less money for everyone else... since those large deeds pay into the kingdom funds

 

Those large deeds are (theoretically) being funded by the money they earn through traders..

 

If I would normally buy a 5 dollar sandwich but I am willing to buy a 12 dollar sandwich if the store gives me 7 dollars, how much money did the store net? 5 dollars.

 

If you want to arbitrarily give out money, I say every premium account gets 1-2s every month. Just for free from out of the coffers. How does that sound?

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2 hours ago, Corsan said:

a very long and very missinformed rant that has nothing to do with this topic

have you even read the first message on this topic? because this sounds like you just read the title.

 

1 hour ago, Hailene said:

 

Those large deeds are (theoretically) being funded by the money they earn through traders..

 

If I would normally buy a 5 dollar sandwich but I am willing to buy a 12 dollar sandwich if the store gives me 7 dollars, how much money did the store net? 5 dollars.

 

If you want to arbitrarily give out money, I say every premium account gets 1-2s every month. Just for free from out of the coffers. How does that sound?

obviously you are totally clueless about how traders work now and how they work before and know nothing about the diference between having a trader and trader farmers.maybe you should learn how things worked and how the abuses happened before you talk about what could or couldnt stop the abuse.

 

i known people that did farm traders, and even worse than people farming their own traders was it was posible to find an abandoned deed about to disband that had a trader nobody knew about and farm the trader for yourself, or in the time between alliances been added to wurm and the nerfing of traders sometimes it was posible to "take care" of traders on abandoned deeds in your alliance and use some of the money made from the trader to keep those abandoned deeds going so you could keep farming their trader,that really is abuse and it should be stopped, at least the first case i mention here.

 

but the biggest missunderstanding you have is that somehow you think that the bigger your deed is the more profit you make or something,so lets make things clear,the people that used to farm traders and made tons of money from it,did it by having lots of minimum sized deeds,with the building with a trader in it and nothing more, and having an alt that logs in the day of the trader reset to collect the money and set the ratio pay some upkeep with the part of the trader money and pocket the rest. and never log again until the next reset.a bigger deed always meant less profit. because the trader in your minimum sized deed where you paid 1s a month for upkeep made exactly the same  amount the traders in huge deeds made.

 

i do agree with @Etherdrifteron something,if what you want its people to have traders open to the public instead of closed of and them getting some benefit from it being open,maybe make it so when someone buys one of the items that currently put money into the trader inventory that  then either goes back to the person who spent the coins if they know how it works,or to someone else if they dont know how it works,which is alsoa diferent kind of abuse. instead of that make it go  to the upkeep of the deed where the trader is a citizen.

 

and dont worry me and many others already took your advice before you gave it and left the game after a series of bad decisions by the devs.so this wont affect me in any way,but i played wurm for longer than any other game and its a shame to see it die because the devs keep listening to a very whiny minority.

 

Edited by Tpikol

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2 hours ago, Hailene said:

 

You literally have zero proof of this. You have absolutely no proof outside of anecdotal evidence to prop up your argument.

 

Why not give money directly those noobs?

 

I do have proof of this, but like I said, it is only those people I personally know.  The devs, on the other hand, can look at every player buying money from the shop, and what type of game style they have and size of deed(s) and amount of deeds or chars or whatever, and make an informed business decisions.  Again, bantering on forums does little to change anyone's mind, but it may spark some useful ideas around this, one of which may be to really study the playing style of people who really prop up the GAME, because that is what is important here (the game, not arguments).  

 

On your second thought:  Why not give it directly to noobs?  Giving it via foraging was the intent, give some of the coins to noobies to make the game more user friendly and perhaps retain some of the noobies.  You stated that the activities chosen were deemed to be mainly noobie-type activities,which is why the money was earmarked to be attached to those specific activities only (I am not sure that those activities are mainly done by noobies, but let's go with that for a moment for the sake of open debate.)  Unfortunately, it backfired for two reasons:

 

1. Anyone can forage, which means that the vets with an OCD streak immediately adapted and made an army of alts foraging the heck out of tiles and netting the coins which were supposed to go to noobs. 

2. It is not only the noobie market who should be retained.  The people who pay some money into the shop as loyal and established wurmians, also deserve some support.  Obviously I am not saying that market only consists of people with a trader on their main deed, however, the same argument you use to say mainly noobies do these actions so that is why coins were earmarked for those, can be used to say mainly established players would have a deed with a trader, which is why some coins were supposed to be earmarked for those.  I don't remember all the discussions but iirc that is why the money bucket was to be split in two, one part to go to some coins for noobies and one to go to some coins back to established players via traders.  Since the bucket was not split, all that happens now is that most of the money earmarked for resdistribution get dropped in the grass/hunting, and in many cases non noobies get it any way.

 

There is a difference between having a trader on deed to help pay for deed upkeep used by an established player who intends to stay for a long time, vs having one to milk for coins, which is why the OP suggestion to link the funding to deed upkeep makes a lot of sense. 

 

 

 

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While all this sounds amazing.. your idea dedicates everybody's money for [trader-owners] and [everyone else],

and while [trader-owners] can pick in both buckets.. [these without traders] can not.:huh:

 

Do you see the problem? Nobody limits trader owners from doing all the actions that give coins.

Who says that people who do not have traders want to pay the others with traders?

 

Once that model becomes lucrative, everyone who's able is going to buy one or few.. and profit, than once again lower the gains as they are shared among more traders.

 

Problem is somewhere else (if somebody makes golden coins from foraging.. that should also be addressed..), these with traders.. look up why you bought your trader if you have at all..(plenty of old deeds just come with one.. which is not exactly like buying it on your own to complain about it..) than ask the question what happened with the old promised incentives from traders.

 

What gumbo explained was amazing.. but.. if I am able to make 20 silver a month from traders... why should I even play or pay for anything if it's basically free for me.

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I think this thread has run its course as we're just going in circles.  Thanks for the debate folks, my opinion remains unchanged as this would negatively impact more people than it would positively impact.

 

-1 from me

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It amazes me how many people that never had any traders talks about them without even knolwedge about actual and prevoius traders mechanics. Just like "my mate told me, my alliance told me, my sister's husband's mother's brother told me that you can get 5s up to gold from a trader. True info"

Edited by Alkhadias
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What I want to know is how is everyone else botanizing for fortunes? I can't get more than a couple of coppers! 

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4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

What I want to know is how is everyone else botanizing for fortunes? I can't get more than a couple of coppers! 

 

What you also need to know is how much is left in the coffers, you are not the only one (ab)using this system, so just like the anti-traders argument, more players foraging, less money for everyone, specially those who have little time to spend on it.

 

And comes the matter of your skill, server, overal wealth of it and how much players have to forage/botanise those last month due to all the updates requiring stuff from that pool (of items). For absurd cash amount, i'd even suggest to try chaos, cause big deeds, large upkeeps, (traders apparently doing well there), so most likely enough to turbonerd around... that is, if you survive the extra stabbing.

 

6 hours ago, Finnn said:

Do you see the problem? Nobody limits trader owners from doing all the actions that give coins.

Who says that people who do not have traders want to pay the others with traders?

 

<and extra stuff>

Nothing limits non traders owner from buying one if it's efficient enough for their deed. But yes, you do have a point, if you give everyone a fair share of what they inject on the game (remember, cash is looping like forever from upkeep > to kingdom pool > to everyone pockets > back to upkeep) this will means less money for everyone (devs would propably have to do the same thing as they did on xanadu, artificially inject money into the economy for the free coins, anyway, the frequent empty coffers on the old servers prove we are already there, with or without a change to traders).

 

6 hours ago, Finnn said:

Once that model becomes lucrative, everyone who's able is going to buy one or few.. and profit, than once again lower the gains as they are shared among more traders.

 

Hello, please read the thread (well, my posts since i already answered that question) and see how the actual system works and how new proposed change will stop profits from them. Relying indeed on free coins / cash shop to finish paying the upkeep and your ingame expense, just like everyone else.

 

9 hours ago, Hailene said:

If I would normally buy a 5 dollar sandwich but I am willing to buy a 12 dollar sandwich if the store gives me 7 dollars, how much money did the store net? 5 dollars.

 

Do you go out and buy stuff from stores do you? Seen the 3 for 2 boughts offers? Coupons? Sales? Cheapers items when you get into <insert shop name> premium membership (free or not, depending of the advantages). Yes the net appear to be lower, but why those companies who makes billions do that, because it's proven to work, customer loyalty is a big thing and all the little helps improve customers retention and often lead the customers to pay more. The gamble is that you will buy something else with your free dollars and/or come back more frequently and keep buying from that specific store.

But no, that's not wurm, here customer loyalty is earn with yellow potions, you only get discounts if you buy 1 year of prem straight away and if you dare to ask cheaper/free deeds upkeep and/or a more fair way to distribute the cash back to those who spend it, you are (not really) politely asked to leave the game.

In the big picture of players monthly premium and soon to come shop with micro-ish transactions, do you really think getting rid of players is a good idea, while reducing upkeep drains on the majority could lead to "hey, shiny hat, and i didn't had to spend 5$ on the upkeep this month, lets buy it".

 

5 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

I think this thread has run its course as we're just going in circles.  Thanks for the debate folks, my opinion remains unchanged as this would negatively impact more people than it would positively impact.

And yes, i agree with you, we are running in circles because haters are gonna hate without reading properly what is being said. So any time spent is wasted on people who are not able to think with their brain but only their heart/guts/whatever place where they have that big ball of hate and anger located.

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The trader discussion is always going to have two side.  The owners and non-owners.  I bought a trader ages ago and never drained it a single time.  I bought it for convenience, so I would not have to run to town, every time I wanted more settlement papers.  I believed trader draining was a poorly thought mechanic back then and always have, so I won't support it.  It is harmful to the game and one of those old, broken mechanics that just needs to die.  Almost everyone that owns traders had made more than their initial investment in them.  Time to shut them all down on payouts, other than the same payouts as token selling.  Reset their price to 5s, for players to buy as a convenience.  Remove the "distance from other traders" restrictions and just limit them to 1 per deed.  Make it a feature like templars, that you choose at deed creation or resizing, but are able to pick the location on deed.

 

If people need massive deeds, then they can bloody well pay for their massive deeds.  There were times when I did the massive deeds and at my peak, was paying roughly 300s a month for deeds and alt prem.  What did my massive deeds accomplish?  Pretty much just limited the develop-able area in my neighborhood.  Now I stick to smaller deeds.

 

I do buy coin from players, rather than the shop.  I like supporting players.  When I'm paying 10-20x more to code club to play this game, than any other MMO I play, I don't feel obligated to pay their higher prices for silver ;) . But mainly I just enjoy trading with players.  It helps build relationships in the game and that is always good for the game.

 

There are so many OLD legacy mechanics in Wurm that absolutely prevent growth.  Too many influential players that hold onto those ideas with a death grip.  More than anything, we need new leadership at Code Club that can come in with a wrecking ball and tear it down, to rebuild for the next generation of Wurm players.... Or just maybe build a new version that fixes what is broken.  WU did a fair amount of fixing.  So many extremely popular new mods coming from WU to WO, which is great, but we have to release the death grip on the broken stuff and let them go.  Time to put the IBM 286 with TURBO button on the shelf and get a real PC.  Sure, DOS is the best ever, but lets move on to a GUI now, ok?

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7 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

The trader discussion is always going to have two side.  The owners and non-owners.  I bought a trader ages ago and never drained it a single time.  I bought it for convenience, so I would not have to run to town, every time I wanted more settlement papers.  I believed trader draining was a poorly thought mechanic back then and always have, so I won't support it.  It is harmful to the game and one of those old, broken mechanics that just needs to die.

what an amazingly biased and closed minded way to look it things,so before knowing anything about how it works you just decided that it must be wrong,and it will always be wrong no matter what. i would say there is at least 5 sides on this discussion,but you already said that nothing can ever change your mind so why bother.

 

dont worry youll get what you want, Wurm will die and another game will come along eventually. but like everything in wurm its death its taking a long long time.

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18 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

what an amazingly biased and closed minded way to look it things,so before knowing anything about how it works you just decided that it must be wrong,and it will always be wrong no matter what. i would say there is at least 5 sides on this discussion,but you already said that nothing can ever change your mind so why bother.

 

dont worry youll get what you want, Wurm will die and another game will come along eventually. but like everything in wurm its death its taking a long long time.

Oh, I knew how they worked.  I did a lot of research on it.  I even mapped out my first deed so that it would fit 4 traders.  Checked the ranges from all other traders.  Was all ready to take the plunge and then realized I would be supporting a system that isn't good for the game or the players.  It may have helped Code Club to bring in much needed funding for more staff, new servers or something, but now it works against them.  Traders aren't being purchased very often now, they are just like legacy accounts, passing from one player to the next.  Code Club got their investment money, now it is time to retire the program.  Refund the most recent purchases, prorated for length of time and potential earnings they could have produced.

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The level of entitlement in this thread is off the charts. I'm out, too.

 

Big -1 from me.

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36 minutes ago, Hailene said:

The level of entitlement in this thread is off the charts. I'm out, too.

 

Big -1 from me.

yeah from people like you.

 

but since this is going nowhere, il say that the funniest part of what is said in this topic is that this idea of "old players" being elitists, its what i used to think about people like elwood,alyeska and her husband, totally forgot his name and im pretty sure i misspelled hers.

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On 6/11/2017 at 11:20 AM, Hailene said:

If we need free academy deeds or anything like that, then there is a much better way to go about this. Having deeds managed by trusted players but being upkeep free would be better. It means that all the money (that would have been spent on upkeep) is being used to help newbies.

 

I wondered if I should respond to this, seeing as there is another thread at the moment requesting this specific thing you suggested, but seriously, this just further shows the depth of the effect that complete nerf of all traders had on the game.

 

I agree with you Hailene, it should not be up to players to make, run and fund deeds to try and retain noobies.  (This was one of the arguments used to state how traders in the past actually helped noobies and helped to retain them as well.)  However, the response of the devs is completely different as they "don't see livable starter towns being beneficial, if that were the case any new player starting deed would work and that can be achieved by players."  Basically, fund it out of our own pockets, or lose it (and with it the potential noobies who may have stayed.  Again, this is not in dispute, it actually happened.)  Again, +1 to the OP's ideas for trader coins linked to the deed upkeep of the deed they are attached to, which would see a benefit to all players in Wurm.  

 

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My original post in here got deleted where I expressed my disappointment at the return of the dreaded trader discussions. <_<

 

On 6/11/2017 at 0:25 PM, Wurmhole said:

then realized I would be supporting a system that isn't good for the game or the players

 

I have always wondered how someone owning a trader can affect a player who chooses not to own a trader.  The big issue is that it is entirely your choice.  If you do not want to be a part of the system, then don't.  At the same time don't sit around whining about what you aren't getting because you decided not to participate.  That's right!  It is entirely your choice.

 

Choosing not to have a trader does not prevent you from building a deed, grinding skills, hunting, exploring the world, or even joining a kingdom to PvP.  Am I missing something that is not available to you if you choose not to have a trader?

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11 hours ago, Aaron_IRL said:

I have always wondered how someone owning a trader can affect a player who chooses not to own a trader. 

 

The issue is that giving more money to traders would reduce the pot for everything else. So the newbies foraging and hunting for a few coins would get less.

 

Every silver given to a trader is one silver less for newbies to find.

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On 6/11/2017 at 2:50 AM, Tpikol said:
On 6/11/2017 at 0:32 AM, Corsan said:

a very long and very missinformed rant that has nothing to do with this topic

have you even read the first message on this topic? because this sounds like you just read the title.

 

Apparently you didn't bother reading what I said either, because I pretty much stated a similar way to achieve what he said in the first post, without giving people coins (Which is mine/others problems with this thread, from what it seems.).

 

But then again, most trader users were pretty obstinate/'my way or the highway' about these things in the past also, which is why these always turned into fights. Hailene (A former neighbor of mine on Pristine, I might add.) is right, there's a lot of entitlement coming from this thread. I was throwing my viewpoint on the matter in because this thread had a lot of 'But we did such great and wonderful things for people' posts in here and that certainly wasn't my experience.

 

'I paid a chunk of money to the game, so I deserve a free source of money in-game and should never have to pay again!' is what it all sounds like. None of you are entitled to never pay for the game again just because you paid something (However small or large it was) early on. I paid too, I fully expect I'll have to continue paying to enjoy the game, which is a service provided to us. If you don't want to pay anymore, that's fine...take your money elsewhere....oh wait...you even stated that you've left the game and have no hand in the game as it were, where as I am a currently paying/playing member. Why do you think your viewpoint is more important than mine?

 

Don't talk down to me like you just did. This was a similar mentality most of the trader users ran around with, and one reason I certainly never supported their previous use/function, and will continue to be against any use which brings their past exploitation into use again. The thread had suggested tweaking them, and I had suggested similar things in the past and people would yell at me just like you did and/or try and drown out what I had to say. Mob mentality is not how they should run this game.

People say we're a 'whiny minority', well, I'm tired of being called names/being insulted like this because I disapprove of a morally repugnant player abusing mechanics that were improperly instituted and the game's founder not wanting to lose his money source so he didn't just shut you all down early on. Most of the other games, if there was a mechanic being blatantly abused/exploited in this way like these were, would have gone through and banned every single one of these players, instead it was allowed to go on for way too long and they didn't do anything about it for a long time until he instituted the new Xan server and new changes that made them stop being abused because they didn't 'pay off' like they were in the past.

This player was asking for a tweak/fix to them so they could serve a purpose in the game again...(probably with the hopes to get money source back)...but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and post that I could see them being used as a way to lower the upkeep costs for longer term players/bigger deeds (By just being on the deed)....that have more activity/therefore are keeping active players around/functional/paying/playing, but that I would rather see them coded so they couldn't be abused anymore.

These are not your personal piggy-banks.

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3 hours ago, Hailene said:

So the newbies foraging and hunting for a few coins would get less.

This, again, comes down to a choice.  When I started playing I was focused on digging, mining, woodcutting, blacksmithing, weapon skills, and eventually hunting (and advanced foraging:ph34r:).  During that time I was learning as much as I could about all aspects of the game by talking to other players, reading the forums/wiki, and watching in-game chat.  I made choices then that have gotten me to where I am now.  You know now, and others reading this mess, that foraging, hunting, and burying are a way to get started, but it has limitations (as stated above).  I do not know much about those limitations because I do not forage unless I am looking for actual items.  I'm only surprised by the hunting and burying coins because I like to hunt and I'm obsessive about butchering and burying corpses.  -_-

 

2 hours ago, Corsan said:

People say we're a 'whiny minority', well, I'm tired of being called names/being insulted like this because I disapprove of a morally repugnant player abusing mechanics that were improperly instituted and the game's founder not wanting to lose his money source so he didn't just shut you all down early on.

Way to take the high ground.  Stating your dissatisfaction with being called names/being insulted, by insulting and calling people names should totally turn the tide of your interaction with these people. Was verbally neutering the game's founder just icing on the cake as if he had no power to make any changes that he wanted?  :o

 

I'm no expert on what Rolf can and cannot do, but he seems to do what he wants.  Rolf wanted Challenge... voila Challenge server.   Rolf wanted Xanadu... voila Xanadu Server.  Rolf wanted to take off and leave us with a mostly volunteer staff... Voila empty chair.  :unsure:

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1 hour ago, Aaron_IRL said:

Way to take the high ground.

 

Why should I take a 'high ground' on this? I tried taking that road already. It led to half a year of harassment (In public chats) by these same individuals(And their friends), who used their buddies in power to create even more drama for me. I'm not going to mince words with people like this. There's a movement online for people to stop being so 'politically correct', well, often the truth hurts and I have a hard time not speaking it.

Rolf can, (And often did) do whatever he wanted(Hello PvE going PvP!), but he was also a businessman of sorts and attempted to keep a steady income flowing so he could afford to do the things he enjoyed, and to also keep the staff paid, and the game running. Customers used that 'trust' between a business-person and the consumer to take advantage of him to get what they wanted, and rather than be like the staff have been lately "Suck it up buttercup", he rolled over on that one and let them have their way for way too long even though he expressed a desire to have it done differently. (I used to read his posts upon these subjects.) I actually wasn't even putting anything on him, as he was probably under some constraints at the time/wasn't able to get them functioning how he wanted to, which is why it took so long to change them the little bit he did to stop the payouts.

The impetus to not abuse a mechanic one finds that is exploitable, is upon the consumer. Morally bankrupt people take advantage of them. Morally upright people report them and get them fixed. Or your average player notes it and moves on/avoids it until fixed. In many games, people who take advantage end up just being removed (banned, suspended). These people were allowed to continue for way too long and the economy suffered because of it. They talk about wanting to bring back 'the glory days', but they were part of the cause/crash...and don't even understand that.

Yeah, let's just go back to the days where everyone had a free fountain of money flowing out of their deeds. Money grows off trees. You and I both know that...right? (This line was sarcasm.)

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3 hours ago, Corsan said:

The impetus to not abuse a mechanic one finds that is exploitable, is upon the consumer. Morally bankrupt people take advantage of them. Morally upright people report them and get them fixed. Or your average player notes it and moves on/avoids it until fixed. In many games, people who take advantage end up just being removed (banned, suspended). These people were allowed to continue for way too long and the economy suffered because of it.

Just so I make sure I have this correct.

  • "morally bankrupt" = Anyone that has a trader, and maintains it's ratio  (imo = resourceful user of generally accepted mechanics based on how long it's been in-game and allowed to continue)
  • "Morally upright" = All of the people who have many times in the past, and still, ask that changes be made to this system (imo = Obsessive, bordering narcissistic.  Constantly asking for the same thing over and over, while arrogantly labeling anyone who does not agree with your supposed superior stance as "morally bankrupt." :mellow:)
  • "average player" = Everyone else who just plays the game without regard to traders (imo = Content player who enjoys the game, and chooses to play it how they want to play it)

I do not really want to dig through the depths of forums to find out how long this mechanic has been in the game, or how long have people who choose not to use this mechanic been starting these threads, but seriously at what point do you just stop beating the dead horse and become the "average player" or the "morally bankrupt," as you have labeled them?

 

Wasn't Xanadu supposed to be your promised land?  They made this dream a reality for you on one super-sized server.  How was this not enough?  Oh right, narcissistic power-seeking behaviors.  You will not be satisfied until you have forced your will onto everyone else. <_<

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23 hours ago, Aaron_IRL said:

I have always wondered how someone owning a trader can affect a player who chooses not to own a trader.  The big issue is that it is entirely your choice.  If you do not want to be a part of the system, then don't.  At the same time don't sit around whining about what you aren't getting because you decided not to participate.  That's right!  It is entirely your choice.

 

Choosing not to have a trader does not prevent you from building a deed, grinding skills, hunting, exploring the world, or even joining a kingdom to PvP.  Am I missing something that is not available to you if you choose not to have a trader?

 

You've conveniently forgotten the part where traders have a proximity limit and can't be placed within 63 tiles of another trader. So no, not everyone can have one.

Edited by Trooper
corrected proximity number

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1 minute ago, Trooper said:

You've conveniently forgotten the part where traders have a proximity limit and can't be placed within 200 tiles of another trader. So no, not everyone can have one.

 

It is not 200 tiles.

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