Traders and economy.

[Ayuna 331]

11 hours ago, Reylaark said:

 

No, -1, sorry, but no.

There's the rub.

You want to reward people investing in Wurm and its future?  I buy my premium from CCAB directly, every month, plus silver, every month.  That is supporting wurm.

 

Trying to bring back a system where someone pays 35s, then makes all their money back, then don't spend another dime ever and just use the trader to pay for everything they need, plus for some even go on to sell silver for real money...

 

No, just no.

 

Botanizing and foraging may be broken, ok, sure, so fix that.  The ship has sailed on your traders giving you free money at everyone else's expense.  Supporting Wurm is a great idea.  Do that instead.

 

Just wanted to say that you inspired me to think of the bigger picture and buy silver directly from CCAB. Thanks.

[Odynn 2,248]

4 hours ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

Except they are not really investing in the future of Code Club,  are they?

 

My phrasing might have been a bit off but corrected in the following posts. You pay upfront a large amount and invest on YOUR future in the game.

 

4 hours ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

The logic that buying traders is some sort of "benefit" or "investment" for Code Club is  pretty shallow. it presupposes that CC would benefit a LOT more from having a little cash upfront now, in exchange for not getting more money later.

It's always the gamble, will the deed and traders goes past the 8/9 month stages were it start to bring less (none) money to the game or not. Knowing the subscription will keep running every month anyway.

 

4 hours ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

I think the reason most of us who oppose this suggestion, do so primarily because we suspect it leads us slowly back to the old system again that we finally escaped from. Encouraging players to once again start buying traders, in hopes of benefiting financially, only opens the door to later suggesting Code Club has some of obligation to make their 'investment" worthwhile -- by increasing once again their monthly return in silver.

Well, that's where you are all wrong, the old system is still there and actually my suggestion would not only prevent the farming but also allow those new players you speak so fondly to spend less on their upkeep and use money for others purpose. Seeing that the only way those new players have to safely make money without investing in premium and gear is basicly selling to the token, which has the worse return rate ever.

 

4 hours ago, Ayuna said:

Just wanted to say that you inspired me to think of the bigger picture and buy silver directly from CCAB. Thanks.

 

Well, Rey maths is a bit off if you take into account that he can easilly buy 12 month of premium for 80€ and not spend an extra dime using the free coins options... So yah, investing on the game is nice, but brash points are way better :

4 hours ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

For a true "invest in Code Club to show your loyalty" program, I would prefer seeing ways to encourage people to buy annual subscriptions at a better savings, and/or offer more "vanity" cashshop purchases such as guild banners/flag, premium hairstyles and fancy "graphics" mounts that have no ingame advantage. It accomplishes the same goal but is a lot more clean and upfront about it than convoluted systems that slowly ease back to the system we had in the past.

Straying off the subject here, but I asked a few days/weeks ago Retrograde if crowfunding (ingame means / whatever) some fancy graphics or new features (i want my godamn dragon shoulder pads) would be possible... Guess what happened, the idea was shot down into flame... seems like it's not a good idea to go the road of "take my money" and do it!

 

4 hours ago, Greyfox said:

Wurm needs to decide if wants to be an RCE or not.  This middle ground has to stop.  Either Wurm is an RCE and the only ways to get silver are though the cash shop or by trading with other players. 
Or it's not an RCE, silver gets pulled from the cash shop and added to loot, basically we go to an ingame currency like most MMOs.

This. In the end, the economical model need to know if we are going to go for a P2P situation with cash shop and the whole micropayment thing (probably the worse road ever) OR just run on the subscriptions and have a desociated ingame cash, mobs slaying and whatnot.

 

Darmalus had an intersting take on the matter as well, but I will let him expose his views.

[Pandalet 1,848]

Without addressing traders directly, it seems that what you're basically asking for is a reduction in deed upkeep costs.  Using traders to achieve that just hides the end effect in extra complexity.

[MrGARY 12,421]

On 4/1/2017 at 5:15 AM, Pandalet said:

reduction in deed upkeep costs

 

would love this on epic, guards cost 3s a month :l

[Odynn 2,248]

Another month, another low income, another month with coffers empty, time to have a look at this maybe?

 

Either reduce the upkeep charges, rebalance the coin drop, allocate some of the coffers amount to traders (ie. not drained like it's currently by any free coins drop), tie all-over-the-board free coins to the money spent on upkeep / premium.

 

Plenty of potential ideas, time to explore some!

[Legios 497]

On 3/31/2017 at 11:36 PM, Greyfox said:

+ and - 1.

Wurm needs to decide if wants to be an RCE or not.  This middle ground has to stop.  Either Wurm is an RCE and the only ways to get silver are though the cash shop or by trading with other players. 
Or it's not an RCE, silver gets pulled from the cash shop and added to loot, basically we go to an ingame currency like most MMOs.
 

I wouldn't be upset if it became full blown RCE, I mean look at other old games like Entropia Universe even with the slight chance of obtaining large amount of currency it still revolves around the player made economy and income that almost all comes from the game shop. Also all the gold sinks, silver sellers are practically giving money to paypal instead of the wurms team.. this should be addressed and maybe remove the middle man (paypal) so that CC can make that income instead. A simple "webpage" wallet type mechanic where people can just transfer the real currency to their own game accounts and then proceed to do trades through this mechanics with certain fees that will only help the game, and then throw in a withdraw fee and a withdraw minimum.

[icbash 352]

-1

[Wonka 438]

17 hours ago, Odynn said:

Another month, another low income, another month with coffers empty, time to have a look at this maybe?

 

Either reduce the upkeep charges, rebalance the coin drop, allocate some of the coffers amount to traders (ie. not drained like it's currently by any free coins drop), tie all-over-the-board free coins to the money spent on upkeep / premium.

 

Plenty of potential ideas, time to explore some!

 

or, y'know, just go buy some silver.

[Erevorn 130]

I recently made a rant topic about economy with a little brainstorm on how to improve it. Fact, Wurm economy is dying and trade is now limited to top-tier stuff only. Someone told me to stop being a ###### and buy my prem instead. This got me thinking...

 

Remove traders. All they do is make our heads hurt and piss people off. Limit foraging and botanizing. Make people stop hoarding gold coins in their chests and release the money into the market. I know it sounds like communism but it's the right thing  to do when some struggle with 2s trade and 1s forage revenue a month and others earn 50s monthly while having literal stacks of gold coins hidden away.

 

Wurm is too small for capitalism. This brings forward another problem - how to attract new players. Get those and I promise at some point the economy will get a kick back to life.

[Finnn 3,321]

Why is that a problem or strange to you? Nobody wants low quality products when they have some obvious differences, you want the better product as long you can afford it.

 

@Erevornyou could be making 2-3-5silver a day.. you're just being lazy or missing some knowledge. Actually.. depending on situation.. you could earn 2x to 6x more without anything special in mind.(on a good day.. maybe not every.. but.. it's pretty possible if you knew and could do it).

Start small.. learn from the 'elders' old grannies and grandpas know a thing or 2.. you'll eventually learn.. start small, get a freebie ql70 saw/hatchet from somewhere.. or buy one for what.. 10-15copper.. make some planks etc... 

NO game gives you the golden spoon on day 2, you have to earn it.

If anything game's quite hard and punishing in various ways, it's one of the things that makes currency worth something.

1 hour ago, Erevorn said:

Wurm is too small for capitalism. This brings forward another problem - how to attract new players. Get those and I promise at some point the economy will get a kick back to life.

Get that in the game.. and it will be plagued by f2p nolifers and chinese toasters. (while you imagine that problem's the wealthy players.. they are also the ones who usually pay the most.. and where all that silver comes into the game, ruin their wealth.. expect the game servers to close doors)

 

Traders... truth is .. they cost about 30-35 silver once you get back the remaining bounty from the place you bought it... Than with some knowledge about how to manage it.. it should pay back in full within ~10 months to a year.. unless some complications come into play.. I'm not familiar of any ways to boost the trader limit but usual payback isnt that bad, unless it's situational problem with it's location/etc.

While.. they could/should/or whatever.. give some coins back.. they should NOT be used to drain coffers for free coins(selling ql50 ring for 5silver is self-explanatory why this is OP mechanic and why there are limits to prevent coffers from being drained in seconds giving a few gold coins to first to sniff the trader reset).

 

To better understand the problem... I'd suggest to make a chart(maybe..) and present that to staff/devs in a pm rather than showing that in public, explaining the problem with lowering the monthly gains, how and why that happens, etc.. I understood part of the problem .. but cant or wont comment it here.. I do not have a trader, etc.. not that into the problem to try solving anything with it.

[Odynn 2,248]

traders only get a few coppers days after days, and it's coppers if you have someone active in their local all the time. they are not cash cows (anymore), if you have a large deed, they do not contribute to upkeep properly and are a poor investment when you can get a lot more coins by simply foraging.

 

3 hours ago, Erevorn said:

Remove traders. All they do is make our heads hurt and piss people off. Limit foraging and botanizing. Make people stop hoarding gold coins in their chests and release the money into the market. I know it sounds like communism but it's the right thing  to do when some struggle with 2s trade and 1s forage revenue a month and others earn 50s monthly while having literal stacks of gold coins hidden away.

 

People like you with their limited knowledge of traders got them nerfed to the ground already and no one complain about the stupidly OP botanise/foraging draining the coffers in a matters of days.

 

7 hours ago, Wonka said:

or, y'know, just go buy some silver.

 

ty but no, already spending 100€ per month on wurm with no option to downsize my main deeds due to griefers around them, you can also pay into the upkeep of the deeds protecting the cave canals (and useless stadium) on deliverance but i highly doubt you will do that (15s per month of my upkeep goes in there), just like everyone saying : not my problem, deal with it on your own. And yes, those places need to be deeded, because nothing protect them in game from the first jerk deciding to drop dirt in it and place a deed over. This is wurm, deed it or loose it, but don't expect free community deeds.

 

3 hours ago, Erevorn said:

I recently made a rant topic about economy with a little brainstorm on how to improve it. Fact, Wurm economy is dying and trade is now limited to top-tier stuff only. Someone told me to stop being a ###### and buy my prem instead. This got me thinking...

 

And yah, economy is keeling over, so when you had to rely on it for your upkeep (seeing the traders are crap since months now) you are screwed. And that people is exactly how you lose even more players.

[Wurmhole 3,650]

Kill trader draining completely.  No selling to traders ever.  Only selling to tokens.  Lower the price for traders so it makes sense for people to add one to their main deed, for the convenience.  Anything purchased from a trader just goes into the pool for token selling and rare coin rewards.  End trader deeds forever!

[tamat 265]

[16:28:11] <Tamat> let the rare coins alone!

[Darmalus 631]

Unfortunately, Odynn, saturation of the economy (and the resulting price crash) is inevitable. Other games get around this by resetting the economy every expansion (all your old gear is now worthless, replace it!). Long term players saturate quickly and even marginally skilled players are massively over productive. The consumables economy needs more development, with some sort of in-built limitation that prevents a single turbo-nerd from saturating their server. More production should take more players, in essence.

[Wargasm 1,928]

So because you spend 100s a month on deeds that you think are necessary, the economy is broken.  Mmmmk. 

 

One fix for the economy would be to stop hoarding uniques (private loot, private kill, unannounced), and at least let people come collect bloods.  Oh, I forgot, that doesn't put money in YOUR pocket, so it's not a solution, right?

[Wurmhole 3,650]

There is a serious problem with some of the oldest players that feel entitled to free or profitable Wurming.  Sure, you are old and have great skills AND have had a nice free ride (not all of you for sure, but plenty!), but it is time to mend the old broken systems and allow more chance for player equality.  This game MUST be reinvented to allow new players a chance to earn their way to more of an equal opportunity, without it taking 10 years.  Forums here are a terrible place to even discuss it, because it is dominated by the older players that wish to maintain their hold on devs and hold on economy.  I get it.  100% natural to fight for your earned position.  What happens though is the death of the game you are trying to hold onto.  Too much inbreeding leads to birth defects and eventually the royal family goes insane and dies off.  Very likely destroying their kingdom in the process.

 

We need new!  Not slightly tuning the old, in an attempt to keep the old glory days alive.

[Odynn 2,248]

46 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

One fix for the economy would be to stop hoarding uniques (private loot, private kill, unannounced), and at least let people come collect bloods.  Oh, I forgot, that doesn't put money in YOUR pocket, so it's not a solution, right?

 

good joke, salty much? you are free to do the same as we do on deliverance, welcome people wishing to help in your team, hunt with them and share the loot with them... if you are against freeloaders that much, maybe it's time to remove all kind of public events giving free loot to anyone and free coins drop, right?

 

31 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

There is a serious problem with some of the oldest players that feel entitled to free or profitable Wurming. 

 

There is a serious problem when you have to pay for everything because no one give a ###### about the effort the community spent... so yah, i guess that means no longuer handing freebies, asking for donations for community oriented deeds and whatnot.

 

32 minutes ago, Wurmhole said:

This game MUST be reinvented to allow new players a chance to earn their way to more of an equal opportunity, without it taking 10 years.  Forums here are a terrible place to even discuss it, because it is dominated by the older players that wish to maintain their hold on devs and hold on economy.

 

Yah, you don't really know me do you, if you think i want to hold on my position and sell a shitload of stuff to everyone and abuse a system, that not really my case, what i'm asking for is a solution to lower the upkeep of the deeds, making traders viable again for everyone, and be better for the community as a whole... and if you think a system limiting the traders income will help to make money you are wrong... it's the exact opposite, the end of traders farming.

[Steveleeb 1,067]

Traders have been nerfed so badly now, unless you know the tricks, tricks that change from season to season.
i would wager that 80% of people that own a trader know not these tricks, beyond.. set ratio with something he hasn't got. 
for the good of the people, generally means the majority of us. we can tweak concision (all of us) but we gotta start somewhere.
so
+1

Edited June 9, 2017 by Steveleeb

[Wurmhole 3,650]

Odynn,

 

Sorry, I didn't mean my rant to be targeted to you and I should have made that clear. I do like that your system does eliminate the hated traded only deeds.  2 thumbs up for that much of it.  Not good with it being a perpetual deed discount that requires little maintenance to keep it going.  My rant was just me letting out frustrations about traders STILL being in existence today and the general issues that come from the Wurm "old days" and players that hold onto the old ways.

[Odynn 2,248]

2 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

Not good with it being a perpetual deed discount that requires little maintenance to keep it going. 

 

Well one of the current issue is that you have to pay for the land, then rent the land, then pay for premium to enjoy the land (and potentially pay for templars to prevent trolls from destroying all your structures).

 

If your deed upkeep is low, you don't need a lot of maintenance, but if you have a large deed welcoming newbies, allies or protected something built by the community you have to shell out large amount of cash.

Traders can be a way to :

1/ make sure a deed remains if the players are active (ie, not permanent forever like they would be if upkeep was removed);

2/ allow a not completely free solution with some work involve;

3/ by lifting the placement restriction and reducing the price, allow everyone to have access to them,

4/ most important, reduce one of the main money sinks for players allowing them to spend more on the economy, making the value of silvers and the items more in-line.

5/ with the OP mentionned limitations, not only large deeds upkeep will be more balanced with their traders incomes, but more cash will be available to everyone else through the free coins drop (even if those need a serious balance, specially on the sell feature that is way too much under rated and the way too powerfull forage botanise jackpot).

[Hailene 362]

If I had to choose to give "free" silver to the guy that spent 40ish silver and does minimal work (build a locked spot for it, manage ratios, etc.) or the person (newbie or not) that's spending hours and hours every day to botonize, forage, murder, and sell to the token, I know who I would like for it to go.

 

Not only from a sense of fairness (more work=more reward) but the demographics of the two groups are going to be (mostly) vet players and newer players, respectively. I rather have newbies be able to wet their toes into the player-based economy with a few silver they managed to get from their foraging and protection of their deed.

 

Think of it as the free 150 diamonds or whatever those F2P MMOs play. Once someone has spent a currency, they're likely to spend more.

[Erevorn 130]

14 hours ago, Finnn said:

Why is that a problem or strange to you? Nobody wants low quality products when they have some obvious differences, you want the better product as long you can afford it.

 

@Erevornyou could be making 2-3-5silver a day.. you're just being lazy or missing some knowledge. Actually.. depending on situation.. you could earn 2x to 6x more without anything special in mind.(on a good day.. maybe not every.. but.. it's pretty possible if you knew and could do it).

Start small.. learn from the 'elders' old grannies and grandpas know a thing or 2.. you'll eventually learn.. start small, get a freebie ql70 saw/hatchet from somewhere.. or buy one for what.. 10-15copper.. make some planks etc... 

NO game gives you the golden spoon on day 2, you have to earn it.

If anything game's quite hard and punishing in various ways, it's one of the things that makes currency worth something.

Get that in the game.. and it will be plagued by f2p nolifers and chinese toasters. (while you imagine that problem's the wealthy players.. they are also the ones who usually pay the most.. and where all that silver comes into the game, ruin their wealth.. expect the game servers to close doors)

 

Traders... truth is .. they cost about 30-35 silver once you get back the remaining bounty from the place you bought it... Than with some knowledge about how to manage it.. it should pay back in full within ~10 months to a year.. unless some complications come into play.. I'm not familiar of any ways to boost the trader limit but usual payback isnt that bad, unless it's situational problem with it's location/etc.

While.. they could/should/or whatever.. give some coins back.. they should NOT be used to drain coffers for free coins(selling ql50 ring for 5silver is self-explanatory why this is OP mechanic and why there are limits to prevent coffers from being drained in seconds giving a few gold coins to first to sniff the trader reset).

 

To better understand the problem... I'd suggest to make a chart(maybe..) and present that to staff/devs in a pm rather than showing that in public, explaining the problem with lowering the monthly gains, how and why that happens, etc.. I understood part of the problem .. but cant or wont comment it here.. I do not have a trader, etc.. not that into the problem to try solving anything with it.

 

 

Ok, since you're so anti new players then have fun playing a dead game. Also, the fact that nobody wants low quality products and newbie made stuff is actually what i'm trying to address. Meaning: make newbies more important and they will stick around. The devs already destroyed their (newbies') position in the world by allowing alts in with nearly no resrictions. Bad move devs.

 

I see you are concerned about the current playerbase's "wellbeing" in an event of a wave of new players visiting. I don't see how this could worry you since we have a highly adjustable and technically unavoidable permissions system. 

 

Now as to my hypothetical monthly earnings that you talked about. After 8 years in Wurm I can say I've almost seen it all. I held a couple gold coins in my hands, I've been to Chaos, I had a town, I ground some painful skills and got lost more times than my oldest toon had birthdays. Take a minute and think if I really have a problem with money. I know most people don't address issues that don't touch them but I like to stick my fingers in dark places. What I want is for newbies to be needed in the game. It's possibly the only way to make more people stay since only the most insane ones go through with the "we don't need you, dig 10k dirt for your prem or buy from the shop" stage. With alts unrestricted I say this is now impossible so the devs bamboozled themselves basically.

 

 

[Alkhadias 548]

I must kinda disagree with Erevorn. I remember when i was starting a game few years ago. My toon was pretty old, made on Golden Valley yet, but i had no skill, had no items but starter ones, nothing. And believe me, I had to deal with same things and troubles as each one newbie. First world problem for me was to earn any coins of course. I wanted to set my first ever deed, I wanted to earn anything to keep my deed. And then foraging for coins wasn't even possible. With 20 fishing skill which was my highest skill back then i had to think and fogure something out. And 3 or 4 years ago it wasn't easier than it is now. I was doing everything, I didn't ever grind any skill for sake of high numbers, and then I've mader rare plate leggings which I've sold for 6s. Then I've made a rare mallet which also I've sold for 6s. Thing is, that everyone can made something rare, and even if item's at low QL it still has it's value of few silvers. Every new player can make rare, maybe even few a month. That was first way to get some income to set my first deed and pay upkeep for it. Then, when I was playing, building my deed, learning game i've set my first own business in game. And believe me, I've earned over 4-5g without any 80 skill. My highest skill was about 75 fighting then. My first Gold I've earned when my highest skill was at 60 level or so, and just few others around 50. So, don't tell me that it's impossible for new players to get few silvers a month for premium or small deed. You will sell stuff if you know how to advertise stuff you're selling. And if you're selling right things, because it's obvious that you won't compete with high end seller in terms of crafting. You'll get there soon enough, but if you're starting you have to focus on other possible incomes. And no, you don't have to only make bricks till you pull off your hands. If you think that I was working day and night without seeing light to earn this gold, then you're wrong. I was enjoying traveling, adventures around my beautiful Xanadu.

[Erevorn 130]

8 minutes ago, Alkhadias said:

I must kinda disagree with Erevorn. I remember when i was starting a game few years ago. My toon was pretty old, made on Golden Valley yet, but i had no skill, had no items but starter ones, nothing. And believe me, I had to deal with same things and troubles as each one newbie. First world problem for me was to earn any coins of course. I wanted to set my first ever deed, I wanted to earn anything to keep my deed. And then foraging for coins wasn't even possible. With 20 fishing skill which was my highest skill back then i had to think and fogure something out. And 3 or 4 years ago it wasn't easier than it is now. I was doing everything, I didn't ever grind any skill for sake of high numbers, and then I've mader rare plate leggings which I've sold for 6s. Then I've made a rare mallet which also I've sold for 6s. Thing is, that everyone can made something rare, and even if item's at low QL it still has it's value of few silvers. Every new player can make rare, maybe even few a month. That was first way to get some income to set my first deed and pay upkeep for it. Then, when I was playing, building my deed, learning game i've set my first own business in game. And believe me, I've earned over 4-5g without any 80 skill. My highest skill was about 75 fighting then. My first Gold I've earned when my highest skill was at 60 level or so, and just few others around 50. So, don't tell me that it's impossible for new players to get few silvers a month for premium or small deed. You will sell stuff if you know how to advertise stuff you're selling. And if you're selling right things, because it's obvious that you won't compete with high end seller in terms of crafting. You'll get there soon enough, but if you're starting you have to focus on other possible incomes. And no, you don't have to only make bricks till you pull off your hands. If you think that I was working day and night without seeing light to earn this gold, then you're wrong. I was enjoying traveling, adventures around my beautiful Xanadu.

 

It's a fair point, I keep forgetting about rares. The only thing is to be persistent enough to make one but if a newbie doesn't have enough elbow grease they won't ever get high in wurm. Not saying that's bad, it's what makes wurm wurm.

 

I believe we should have the tutorial altered and improved. It should be forced and it should not only show players how to make their first campfires and tools but also tell them about the possibilities of starter game. As to the rares we still have the problem that some things that used to go for 6s easy now go for 2s or not at all. Still, you've proven me wrong so I'll stop ranting now

[Trooper 74]

They were broken before, they are broken now.

 

Make the few items of use that they still sell available for purchase directly from a deed token or the 'coming soon' webstore and remove them entirely, you can make a case for a percentage refund.

 

Even Rolf knew they were badly broken, thats why the only traders on Xan are the starter towns.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Trooper