Retrograde

Catapult and Trebuchet testing!

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6 hours ago, Mclovin said:

i can already see rams being abandoned and dragged by the defenders. 

 

dragging a ram is incredibly slow, so if someone tried to steal it attackers could attack them and any web/hurting status on the dragger would make them pretty much not move at all so it would actually be contested.  hypothetical anyway but yeah they arent fast to drag away like catas, on live with scale/king gear dragging is like 2 or 3 km/h or so. it would probably be faster to use deed bash bonus to destroy it than drag it to safety.

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20 hours ago, Redd said:

Can we make all war machines lockable and have permissions? 

 

Hrm not sure that would be a good thing in the long run personally.

 

Granted there's old, long running issues with throwaway characters being used to harass operators and commit sabotage.

 

However, personally I'm fine with allowing sabotage and harassment. The problem for me there is allowing such to be performed by throwaway chars.

 

Limiting war machine interactions and dragging to certain stat and skill levels might be helpful there. 

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Can't bash finished houses on the test server gives the message [01:19:37] You do

not have permission to do that here. Only happens on fully build houses if you remove a

wall you can bash not sure if its test specific or not.


Ram on 100% flat ground underground gives below message when trying to ram.
[22:25:19] The battering ram cannot be used on such a slope.
51f2a4622759802baf73f185dd945eb5.jpg

(under ground)
5072d8241dc9e905c896bf8824b94960.jpg

(above ground same x/y as far as I counted)
Tried other tiles around it that where on the hill they gave the same message and going to the left or right lets me so I can only assume its taking the above ground slopes into consideration for underground also.

 

 

 

Not sure if intended but cant repair arches from the outside of a house with a fence in the middle of it tells you [01:46:43] The stone fence is in the way, but you can repair both fence and arch from the inside with no blocking on the same wall.

 

 

Another not sure if intended but 30 sec repair timer for fences inside arches, 4 seconds for the arch/floors on the same border


Weird icon on started arches while in progress building, assume this is a default icon is missing icon
5e0b188acd20ba8657a87e866f028e44.png

 

 

Side bug from chaos, have riddic 1 tile in front of me, in alliance but not in local today which is super game breaking, in general desync is getting pretty bad atm on pvp server had a horse in a mine and it showed it to me 4 tiles north on land and had to relog 2 times to find the proper place and it was vanishing to me depending on the angle I looked at it(This was after I got kicked off it randomly running through a mine and it appeared above ground but I couldn't interact with it took 2 relogs to show back up in the place I could lead it for some reason).
fea38c95d2df1bceac52228071a7dacc.jpg

 

 

Edited by Darklords

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Only 2 small issues tonight, seems the new system is working well now as far as trebs and catapults are concerned.

 

 

[23:23:29] It sounds as though the rock shards hit 2 roofs, and nothing else.
Hit 4 roof and nothing else on that shot tho it only said 2

 

 

The arch animation showing the shot flying through the air still does not like to display for certain angles/speeds it shows the dust of it landing but wont show the actual shot going through the air.

 

 

Other than that, I was able to hit a longhouse on a 600 slope dirt wall with about 45 seconds of changing the counter weight/angle which is nice once you get the hang of it aligning shots isn't super hard but the arch animation missing does make it a lot harder when that bug shows its face, but arches still seem a bit hard to hit I can manage to hit them but its very hit or miss but the extra bash damage on them is helpful and does make bashing them not impossible if this isn't an issue you can fix easy.

Edited by Darklords

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With the rams, you will likely be doing it on a door tile because of the slope, but you can't drag while using or queue up use actions,  which means people can just spam drag binds while walking through the door repeatedly and steal your ram.

 

happened to me today, nothing i could do in the situation as i cant keep everyone targeted.

 

 

i can record this if necessary.

 

Edited by Propheteer

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9 hours ago, Propheteer said:

With the rams, you will likely be doing it on a door tile because of the slope, but you can't drag while using or queue up use actions,  which means people can just spam drag binds while walking through the door repeatedly and steal your ram.

 

happened to me today, nothing i could do in the situation as i cant keep everyone targeted.

 

 

i can record this if necessary.

 

 

Someone always manages to find a way around it...lol

 

Np, will be fixed in today's update.

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4 hours ago, Budda said:

 

Someone always manages to find a way around it...lol

 

Np, will be fixed in today's update.

 

Make it so such attempts should have greater risk involved. Door staying propped open longer than usual, and/or dragger being more open to attack.

 

Come to think of it, requiring multiple draggers might help.

 

However, one should never be 100% relaxed and safe from having their siege machines jacked.

 

EDIT: Also is enabling rams to be loadable on wagons seem OP'ed?

Edited by Klaa

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Can't queue using battering ram. Not sure whether intentional or not, but certainly out of place at least on PvE:

 

[15:50:17] You cannot use the battering ram right now as it is already being used.

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36 minutes ago, zigozag said:

Can't queue using battering ram. Not sure whether intentional or not, but certainly out of place at least on PvE:

 

[15:50:17] You cannot use the battering ram right now as it is already being used.

is intended

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Made a new treb, started at -525 degrees firing angle, increasing the angle makes it default back to 5.

 

[20:24:31] The trebuchet is a huge frightening machine designed to haul devastating rocks long distances. You need to put a lot of rocks or ore into it as counterweights. It is made from cedarwood. It could be improved with a log. It has been weighted 25 times and currently has a firing angle of about -525 degrees. Ql: 36.37809, Dam: 0.0. The name of the owner, Warrior, has been etched in the stern.

 

[20:24:56] The trebuchet creaks as you change the firing angle.

 

[20:25:04] The trebuchet is a huge frightening machine designed to haul devastating rocks long distances. You need to put a lot of rocks or ore into it as counterweights. It is made from cedarwood. It could be improved with a log. It has been weighted 25 times and currently has a firing angle of about 5 degrees. Ql: 36.37809, Dam: 0.0. The name of the owner, Warrior, has been etched in the stern.

Edited by Darklords

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Can bash floors but not walls when templars are up even tho it spams the below
Can destroy pavement when templars are up even tho it spams the below
[17:58:18] The guards kindly inform you that you are not allowed to do that here.

Still allows new actions to be qued up and finished even though it tells you that your not allowed.

 

Rams not giving overcrowded message here for some reason like on test, could use them directly next to each other and on the same wall in this situation not sure if the restriction was removed intentionally or accidentally but on test I needed a 1 tile buffer between each ram.
9c5b570cc0815134a152c1fe47df7696.jpg


e37ae1b8a281b5823b0ca1ff65bc03d7.jpg

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Darklords said:


Can bash floors but not walls when templars are up even tho it spams the below
Can destroy pavement when templars are up even tho it spams the below
[17:58:18] The guards kindly inform you that you are not allowed to do that here.

Still allows new actions to be qued up and finished even though it tells you that your not allowed.

 

Rams not giving overcrowded message here for some reason like on test, could use them directly next to each other and on the same wall in this situation not sure if the restriction was removed intentionally or accidentally but on test I needed a 1 tile buffer between each ram.
9c5b570cc0815134a152c1fe47df7696.jpg


e37ae1b8a281b5823b0ca1ff65bc03d7.jpg

 

 

 

we actually got the too crowded sometimes, but it was... strange, sometimes we got it then i moved one ram a little and we could just keep going.

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Rams are still able to be stolen when people bounce through doors spamming drag, its much harder to do but still possible. We had one stolen today again using the same method. I still think an infinitely more reliable method is forcing the rammer to drag it while using like people do with catapults, as that way they can't retreat if pushed heavily without having to give it up.

 

 

Also, catapults are pretty much useless past three tiles. They don't do enough damage with how long it takes to shoot that far, and getting proper angles/winches to do so really does take an inordinate amount of time. The tile counter you get after winching is also inaccurate, even on flat ground. However, when you are shooting like directly in your face catapults work great. (theyre so good in that case that we actually nicknamed our raid catapult Remington 870.)

 

No complaints with trebuchets. I'm sure ill think of more when i'm not tired.

 

 

edit:

 

oh yeah, with catapults skillgain is really hard to get now. Prior to the update it was already a grueling grind, but making gain based off winches has slowed it down a lot. Is there any way this could be looked at? It's kindve a big deal since shot success rate is heavily dependent on skill now. Even my meager 40 catapulting (which prior to the change was considered quite good) was barely enough to make progress at times because of all the failed shots.

 

Edited by Propheteer

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On 4/30/2017 at 2:03 AM, Propheteer said:

oh yeah, with catapults skillgain is really hard to get now. Prior to the update it was already a grueling grind, but making gain based off winches has slowed it down a lot. Is there any way this could be looked at? It's kindve a big deal since shot success rate is heavily dependent on skill now. Even my meager 40 catapulting (which prior to the change was considered quite good) was barely enough to make progress at times because of all the failed shots.

 

Well looks like I won't be a master catapulter anytime soon. -.-

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Test servers updated with a few changes:

  • Tweaked distance for crowded message when using siege weapons. Shouldn't be able to use 3 rams on a single wall anymore.
  • Increased skill gain from using catapults.
  • Tweaked damage output from catapults, should be a bit harder to hit the 20 damage cap at 10 winches now.
  • Damage from catas/trebs over the 20 damage cap that is currently ignored will now increase the splash radius, and deal a small amount of the extra damage (the ignored damage over 20) to things in that increased radius.
    • The radius gained from this is up for changing, as with the base radius. Some feedback on if it is too large or small would be good.
  • Changes to fence, floor and wall repairing and improving
    • Base timer for repairing and improving these is now 4-8 seconds, depending on your repair or building skill
    • This applies to all building material types.
    • Timer is doubled if there is an enemy presence nearby.
    • Damage repaired per action is now between 5 and 10 damage, depending on repairing skill and the quality of the item you're using to repair.

 

Above changes will be on test for a couple of weeks before they likely go live, please do test and give me some feedback.

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I'm curious to know if any actual thought process really goes into the sort of changes. Now I fully understand the elimination of non prem alts used to repair. But now you are punishing also prem players even those high skilled. So now u made breaking into a deed easier and made it harder for defenders to repair. On top of all that you also told any newer group that might be looking at chaos to line up so the can all be kicked in the bal.. 

 

Good change the crowded I hope it's only 1 ram per wall. 

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@Bubba can you please add in what the old timers were when you make these changes... Please as you are writing just refer what the timer is changing from and too. 

 

Also can you let us know on average how many seconds has been added to siege equipment in terms of current wench time vs old system please. It would be nice to see the whole picture to correlate the increased repair timer to. 

 

One More comment, is it not enough gap already that a newer player ability to improve walls is already less then a vet meaning an attacker will he able to raid a village ran by newer players in half the time it can a vet ran village? 

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If you don't know what the current timers are, why are you assuming its a massive nerf designed to kill off new players?

 

Current live repair timers are between 4 and 16 seconds on stone and plain stone walls, and a minimum of 30 seconds on every other wall type. Improve timers are minimum 30 seconds on everything.

Old winching timers were static 1 second per winch, new timers are between 0.66 and 1.0 seconds per winch depending on skill, with an overall lower range for the minimum winches to offset the lower timers.

 

There is only so far I can go with designing changes aimed around low skilled players without either making things completely discouraging to leveling skills up, or making the skill system that the game revolves around completely invalidated. The new timers are a maximum of 16 seconds when under raid, the old timers are a maximum of 16 seconds at all times. the 5-10 damage repaired range I'm open to changing, but since you're focusing on the timers I haven't mentioned that.

 

You've also glossed over the lowered damage from catapults in the same set of notes, making raiding a bit slower in general.

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17 minutes ago, Budda said:

If you don't know what the current timers are, why are you assuming its a massive nerf designed to kill off new players?

 

Current live repair timers are between 4 and 16 seconds on stone and plain stone walls, and a minimum of 30 seconds on every other wall type. Improve timers are minimum 30 seconds on everything.

Old winching timers were static 1 second per winch, new timers are between 0.66 and 1.0 seconds per winch depending on skill, with an overall lower range for the minimum winches to offset the lower timers.

 

There is only so far I can go with designing changes aimed around low skilled players without either making things completely discouraging to leveling skills up, or making the skill system that the game revolves around completely invalidated. The new timers are a maximum of 16 seconds when under raid, the old timers are a maximum of 16 seconds at all times. the 5-10 damage repaired range I'm open to changing, but since you're focusing on the timers I haven't mentioned that.

 

You've also glossed over the lowered damage from catapults in the same set of notes, making raiding a bit slower in general.

 

How fast can a Trebuchet fire now though, I believe it was every 10 seconds though that may have changed. typical raids don't use a single siege weapon, and this increased radius/damage for Trebuchets and Catapults will mean repairing and defending will become impossible from what I've gathered? Seeing as you have a minimum of 30 seconds to repair 10 damage, a single trebuchet can deal significantly more damage in 30 seconds than a repairer could fix.

 

I'm curious what goal you actually have for raiding mechanics, and if rather than altering just siege engines, it would be better to modify both siege engines AND defense mechanics.

 

EDIT: Such as adding more defensive items to be used, high end archery towers for example, or reinforced walls that take reduced damage. Everyone know's raiding is a slog and should be made better, though that shouldn't mean they have the clear advantage over a defender otherwise there would be no point.

Edited by Fooligun

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1 minute ago, Fooligun said:

 

How fast can a Trebuchet fire now though, I believe it was every 10 seconds though that may have changed. typical raids don't use a single siege weapon, and this increased radius/damage for Trebuchets and Catapults will mean repairing and defending will become impossible from what I've gathered? Seeing as you have a minimum of 30 seconds to repair 10 damage, a single trebuchet can deal significantly more damage in 30 seconds than a repairer could fix.

 

The extra radius and damage is only on test for now, for testing and feedback. If it is actually dealing way too much to reliably repair, I'll tone it down or remove it. Also I'm not sure how you've managed to miss it, but repair timers are lowered to between 8 and 16 seconds while under siege, not a min of 30 seconds. Damage on a single wall is still capped at 20 damage per firing, the extra radius is a lot less damage than that, depending on the amount of damage over the 20 cap the projectile would do if the cap wasn't there. Trebuchets are still once every 15 seconds, but they also now have a timer for loading the projectile, so they are not instant. If trebuchet firing speed becomes a problem, those times can be changed - but I've heard nothing of the sort in any feedback so far.

 

7 minutes ago, Fooligun said:

if rather than altering just siege engines, it would be better to modify both siege engines AND defense mechanics. 

 

Like making repair and improve timers uniform across the board for all wall types and making archery towers and turrets actually useful? There are additional plans for improved ballistae which will be designed with defense in mind, but that is a little bit down the road due to the number of changes needed for that. Defenders are also free to use catapults to fire back at those manning the attacking catapults (and would likely get a better firing position and vantage point from the top of buildings or towers) - though it remains to be seen how useful that is, possibly more useful against an attacking trebuchet as they don't move.

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As a player with 70 catapults I can safely say that I can do more dmg alone then 2 90+ masons repairing because I can hit 3 walls at once for 20 dmg each with high ql ammo...

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10 minutes ago, TradingAlt said:

As a player with 70 catapults I can safely say that I can do more dmg alone then 2 90+ masons repairing because I can hit 3 walls at once for 20 dmg each with high ql ammo...

i -really- doubt that, considering the amount you have to winch to reliably hit max damage, and to account for distance.

 

especially considering shotgunning just got nerfed too, so you cant remington 870 down entire longhouses anymore.

Edited by Propheteer

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Managed to hit a 20.9 on a stone fence, seems possible to hit above the 20 cap currently not sure if this is just the splash damage counting but figured it was worth a mention.

[03:05:58] QL=91.0, dam=1.3267602

[03:06:50] Stone fence hit for 20.921202
[03:07:19] QL=91.0, dam=22.247961

Edited by Darklords

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Recently I was trying to destroy an unfinished, off-deed bridge I'd started, and other than the first 4 sections, I couldn't hit anything. Here are the details:

2x15 stone bridge, angled upward at a slope of 15-20

Was able to destroy the first 2, 2x1 sections with little trouble.

Only the first 4, 2x1 sections were completed.

At various angles I'd watch the rocks shards pass through the sections I wanted to hit but never get a hit message or do any damage. I was also able to pick up the rocks from the tiles directly under the sections I was trying to hit.

My Catapult skill is around 20, and the catapult I was using was 60Ql, and was firing from the foot of the bridge, so no farther than 3 tiles away.

 

It sure seems that I should have been able to at least hit something inanimate like a bridge, even with low skill, from that range.

Maybe someone with higher skill and more know-how could test this to see If there's some sort of bug.

 

Good luck!

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Alendhor said:

Recently I was trying to destroy an unfinished, off-deed bridge I'd started, and other than the first 4 sections, I couldn't hit anything. Here are the details:

2x15 stone bridge, angled upward at a slope of 15-20

Was able to destroy the first 2, 2x1 sections with little trouble.

Only the first 4, 2x1 sections were completed.

At various angles I'd watch the rocks shards pass through the sections I wanted to hit but never get a hit message or do any damage. I was also able to pick up the rocks from the tiles directly under the sections I was trying to hit.

My Catapult skill is around 20, and the catapult I was using was 60Ql, and was firing from the foot of the bridge, so no farther than 3 tiles away.

 

It sure seems that I should have been able to at least hit something inanimate like a bridge, even with low skill, from that range.

Maybe someone with higher skill and more know-how could test this to see If there's some sort of bug.

 

Good luck!

 

 

I'll give it a try when I got some free time, as long as you see the projectile hitting the section and the dust coming up from that tile I would assume it may be some kind of bug.  Quick question, was the easy sections to hit the ones connected to the ground and the hard ones the upper ones if you happen remember.

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