Retrograde

Catapult and Trebuchet testing!

128 posts in this topic

Test server updated.

 

Changes:

  • Battering Ram added
    • Need the lot of you to fight over where you think a good balance point for damage for these should be. What I've got it at at the moment may be a bit low, though I've tried to balance it as a mid point between bashing with large mauls and using a catapult.
    • Min 21 body strength needed to use it.
    • Uses the War Machines skill - skill effects time to use and a skillcheck modifies the final damage. Base 30 second timer, 33% faster at 100 skill.
    • Failed skillcheck results in no damage done. Difficulty is based on the wall's current quality (i.e. QL - damage (or there abouts)), so the first hits will be lower damage and harder, later hits will get easier and deal more damage.
    • Only hits the first thing it comes across in front of it, and it needs to be pretty close to touching the thing you want to ram.
    • Player using it has to be pretty close to the ram to be able to use it, and only one person can use it at a time.
    • Dragging a ram should be a bit slower than dragging other things (e.g. a catapult).
    • Damage to the wall is modified by skillcheck result (as said above) and the QL of the ram. Double damage is dealt when used underground. Does not work against mine doors. Exact values are up for discussion after some testing is done (remember when arguing discussing this line that you're arguing discussing with each other, not me - I'm happy to set values to whatever the general consensus is, if there is one).
  • Fixed up some messages, moved the 'test' messages into proper message showing approx angle and number of winches - or loaded weight in the case of trebuchets.
  • Added firing angle and winches/loaded weight to examine message of catapult and trebuchet.
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Posted (edited)

It would be nice if there could be a negative CR rating given to the user as well as the person using it should have to attach/detach themselves to use it. Damage wise so that it could make more sense if you make it to where you have to attach to use it can have 6 slots total and at maximum capacity does 25% dmg (this %can change) more then what it would take those 6 guys if they were using large mauls. Its a battering ram it would make more sense if you had to attach to use it at a little expense of CR. Then you can scale dmg accordingly by each person added.

 

I take it that building inside caves/mines is being turned on for chaos with this addition? Edit I must have missed the not against mine doors part but read it again the second time. I thought the whole point to rams was for the underground building to be turned on on chaos? I do see the logic of not being allowed vs mine doors that ensures if the enemy wants to get in they have to stand around and bash their way inside which puts them at more risk kinda.

Edited by MaurizioAM

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On 3/29/2017 at 6:56 AM, Retrograde said:

poor attitudes and improper feedback lead to delays in testing and getting things pushed to pvp.

 

If the PvP community REALLY wants to see improvements within the game feel free to work with us.

 

If you wish to respond poorly, or argue over whether dev attention on pvp is incorrect, then it will be much harder to get any improvements in pvp and the situation will not improve.

 

Just wanted to comment on this..

 

Its not that people don't want to work with the team to fix things it's more along the lines that some people and I'm one of them do not agree that this type of change should be made before fixing balance issues in PvP itself. Its great that the team is starting to look into making some changes and fixes but I'm going to try and quite you in my own words cause I don't want to dig up the post you said it in... "We will not be making patchwork changes until a resolution of a PvP overhaul is all complete".

 

There have been many cross kingdom leader conversations about this and many inner kingdom convos as well and although everyone does agree it's nice to see the attention to PvP, making this type of change before fixing the balance of allowing people to defend themselves and their deeds can and most likely will be worse off. 

 

With all that said most comments about catapulting in the past were mainly about the guessing game on trajectory. Damage from my recollection was never really the issue.

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so after thats all done i wouldnt mind some increased skill gain for all the time put into catapulting :) more body stats to compensate too? :) im sorta torn between the old simplistic catapult from 4-5 years ago where i just winched 11 and it hit 11 tiles away perfectly no angels or slopes in the equation... but i also like the complexity of it now... but i don't want to use my main to catapult if there isnt much skill gain in the effort/time spent doing it... and.... i can't use alts unless they are prem with the str to load em.... but it is for destruction so i'm not that frustrated about it :) as i rarely destroy things

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I really hope that at the same time there will be a tool developed to help PvE people bash offdeed walls and fences.  Currently a catapult is used as it cuts down on HOURS of senseless mouseclicking because the amount of damage is so low.  Please give us a tool that would help bash unwanted walls and fences with same speed as mayor on a deed.  Even on deeds you are not a villager of or mayor of but you still own them and pay for them, you stand for HOURS bashing without a cata - not fun!

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56e95b55ccbc4fa596e59110540f596e.png

 

Retros seige workshop is now setup, just south east from the Pvp server spawn point (grab a trowel) there are tons of catapults, trebuchets and bricks and mortar to simulate most pvp scenarios.. I've left it up to you to build as you'll be able to setup what you needm and rebuild if it breaks.

 

Inside the token pit on the right (the mine one) there is an undetground area to test rams with on underground dwellings too.

 

if you need anything just ask!

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Did some ram testing tonight as I couldn't wait to give this long teased feature a test(all above ground ill do some under tomorrow ran out of time)

 

These are not all issues, some are just possible situations I tested to let you know if they are working how you intended or not and to give everyone an idea of how they work even if they are not on test.

 

Dragging does not let you ram, enemy can drag away this is pretty big issue should be able to ram while dragged like catapults unless its a big technical issue.l
[07:31:34] You cannot use the battering ram while it is being dragged.

---------------------------------

Lets players on inside and outside drag it like wall does not exist even when I climbed it up from the bottom and turned around to get it the rest up I can ram from both sides of wall with damage and drag from both sides it basically ignores walls when dragged or rammed when its in the middle which might be a problem with all dragged items to be fair not sure seen other in game things with dragged items ignoring walls.
https://i.gyazo.com/9e93d2fe35a2a81ca040dbdcd946c3b1.mp4

[07:28:59] QL=50.0, dam=9.922884

a3189135ee04c23c508b51d7cc54d7c6.jpg

---------------------------------

Speed penalty when climbing seems very small compared to when on flat ground when dragging ram

on flat ground no drag 11.10
on flat ground drag 2.79


up 297 slope hill no drag 1.11
up 297 slope hill drag 0.95

---------------------------------
Cant que up multiple ram actions in action que for same account gives this error on each attempt to que an action past the first
You cannot use the battering ram right now as it is already being used.

---------------------------------

Cant have second ram bashing wall from other sideside of wall at the same time gives message
[07:37:02] You can't work with the battering ram. This area is too crowded.

---------------------------------

2 rams on same tile will make both say this message even if only 1 is trying to ram and the second is dragged on top it mid action
[07:41:11] You can't work with the battering ram. This area is too crowded.

---------------------------------

2 people cant use the same ram at the same time gives message
[07:43:10] You cannot use the battering ram right now as it is already being used.

---------------------------------

Damage is about 2-3 per 30 second action with a 90ql ram on a 90ql wall and 30 in all skills(I didn't fail to deal damage at all at 30 and damage spread didn't seem to change much between rams).

---------------------------------

Feel likes its intended but stone arches cannot be rammed(seems logical) could hit double doors and walls fine tho they are the only 3 I tested.

 

 

More as I give it another go tomorrow night, overall seems slower than catapulting faster than bashing

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Posted (edited)

Night 2, didnt get to underground ram testing because of things coming up but I got a decent night of catapult testing though didn't get to test trebs yet..

 

Like last time these are a mix of suggestions and bugs in no exact order just how I jotted them down

 

For test only, give debug list of each item hit, the wall/item name,QL,damage dealt, and end damage of each item/tile/tile border instead of test you hit 3 items you got no idea what they are would help debuging a ton.

---------------------------------

I can hit tiles with a cata 2 tiles in front of me and deal 17 damage with 80 kg and 20 degree shot at 20 winch which beats out rams by a long shot at least on flat slope. Old cata couldn't hit this close.
df0f5348367dd0b6104197f7a6610a1d.jpg

---------------------------------
Heavy shots seems to take enough damage to shatter but give no message still about the reason they vanish on high angle low winch shots or there is a bug not spawning them on the current tile.

---------------------------------

[08:05:32] The small catapult will now throw approximately 8 tiles with 20 winches and an angle of around 20.0 degrees.
[08:05:41] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.3221897, damage: 13.221897 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 10.582082m or 2.6455204 tiles.

 

[08:10:17] The small catapult will now throw approximately 10 tiles with 23 winches and an angle of around 20.0 degrees.
[08:10:20] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.4924734, damage: 14.924734 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 10.625056m or 2.656264 tiles.

 

[08:13:07] The small catapult will now throw approximately 16 tiles with 30 winches and an angle of around 20.0 degrees.
[08:13:15] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.9563569, damage: 19.563568 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 10.620093m or 2.6550233 tiles.'

 

[08:14:44] The small catapult will now throw approximately 5 tiles with 15 winches and an angle of around 25.0 degrees.
[08:14:49] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.0078394, damage: 10.078394 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 10.582709m or 2.6456773 tiles.


This was 2 tiles away on 100% flat ground the estimates are wildy off where they hit at 90 skill tho I didnt get far testing most of my testing was 2 tile rage.

---------------------------------

Can hit on side of dirt wall and hit no walls
e1337bc82d985c708a5ef244a67d5972.png


bc7667e306c3ae3fb980f02948a800e7.png

Wont hits multiple walls even if it says it hits multiple and it seems to some tiles hit 0 walls that bug has not been resolved it seems.

[08:19:18] A small four wheel catapult designed to be dragged by one person. It could be used to hurl items at walls and fences. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. It has been winched 30 times and currently has a firing angle of about 25 degrees. Ql: 65.81613, Dam: 0.0.

[08:19:29] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.9171535, damage: 19.171535 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 19.827625m or 4.9569063 tiles.

comes back to a list of whats hit and not total hit would help a ton in the overall debugging for test servers only.

---------------------------------

Hits shard already shot that landed on the tile as a random item hit existing shots that a cata sent off should be ignored in the list of items that a new shot can damage.

 

That's it for tonight, tho I'm not done yet I just like to post my notepad full of notes each night before I goto bed I plan to test this through the week and hit all  my issue even tho some of them take a good deal of time to test but the list of hit objects for rams and catapults would help a ton instead of generic hit X things.

 

Edited by Darklords
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13 hours ago, Darklords said:

[08:05:32] The small catapult will now throw approximately 8 tiles with 20 winches and an angle of around 20.0 degrees.
[08:05:41] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.3221897, damage: 13.221897 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 10.582082m or 2.6455204 tiles.

 

[08:10:17] The small catapult will now throw approximately 10 tiles with 23 winches and an angle of around 20.0 degrees.
[08:10:20] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.4924734, damage: 14.924734 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 10.625056m or 2.656264 tiles.

 

[08:13:07] The small catapult will now throw approximately 16 tiles with 30 winches and an angle of around 20.0 degrees.
[08:13:15] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.9563569, damage: 19.563568 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 10.620093m or 2.6550233 tiles.'

 

[08:14:44] The small catapult will now throw approximately 5 tiles with 15 winches and an angle of around 25.0 degrees.
[08:14:49] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.0078394, damage: 10.078394 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 10.582709m or 2.6456773 tiles.


This was 2 tiles away on 100% flat ground the estimates are wildy off where they hit at 90 skill tho I didnt get far testing most of my testing was 2 tile rage.

 

The estimate assumes the full firing distance, it doesn't calculate anything that will stop the projectile, like a wall - so those estimates are correct. If you were on flat ground for the entire way with no walls to block, that's how far it would likely fly.

 

13 hours ago, Darklords said:

Can hit on side of dirt wall and hit no walls

 

It will only hit things that is is actually in range with. The damage radius isn't in tiles, it is in meters - and height is taken into account. That image you posted shows it a good ~14 meters away from anything, so nothing is in range to hit.

As for messages telling you what is hit, that is already there - the line above the "[TEST]" line when it lands. It should say something like "It sounds like it hit 1 wall, 2 floors and an item".

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Silly question...

 

On the 'cooking' PVE server, at the Catapult Firing Range - am I meant to be able to be able to destroy part of Budda's Shed? Have managed to destroy the internal floor, and cause damage to one of the house walls.

 

The wiki sayes

Quote

It is possible to use catapults on Freedom servers, with following limitations:

  • On deed: can destroy anything (including owned houses) if given destroy building permission. Applies to ally and non-citizens as well.
  • Off deed: (including perimeters) can destroy any fence, wall or hedge, but not buildings, even if the building belongs to the user.

 

This building is in the perimeter of Now We Are Cooking, so I'd expect the off limitation to apply. Even if it was on deed I should not be able to catapult it, as the deed does not give destroy building permission.

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Posted (edited)

ujrSYtI.jpg

 

I wrecked your house budda

 

from the angle I was at I was able to take out the lower walls and the roof somehow, but couldn't manage the 3rd floor walls

 

getting the range I would get this message

 It sounds as though the rock shards hit an item, and nothing else.
[17:31:29] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 2.2329075, damage: 20.0 total things hit: 1. Total distance: 45.034897m or 11.258724 tiles.

 

what item is it actually hitting? empty tile other than maybe a shot from before, or does that just mean you hit a tile

 

 It sounds as though the rock shards hit a wall, an item, and nothing else.
[17:32:51] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 2.0953677, damage: 20.0 total things hit: 2. Total distance: 38.86591m or 9.716477 tiles.

get the item a lot

 

[16:58:29] It sounds as though the rock shards hit 2 fences, an item, and nothing else.
[16:58:29] The rock shards crumbles to dust as it lands.
[16:58:29] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 7.060362, damage: 20.0 total things hit: 3. Total distance: 47.34983m or 11.837458 tiles.

 

so the cata's hit any item laying on the target tile?

 

having to do an extra 10 winch for every shot seems kinda counter productive, but I do like the option of being able to shoot at closer range than the old 10 tile limit, when I get more time I will try some harder shots on top of retro's dirt walls and token pit

 

is there a reason for removing the name of the building you are hitting? 

 

I messed around with the battering ram, they seem awkward to use and real fussy about crowded tiles, the amount of damage done can be out down by a group of players with large mauls I would think, tried bashing warriors house he made with a large maul for comparison but I did not have permission to do that, but it was fine to bash it with a battering ram

Edited by JakeRivers

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I like the dusk animation when you hit some :D

 

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Server was updated yesterday with a few tweaks:

  • Changed how the ram checks what it hits. Used to be a 3m line extending from the center of the ram forwards. Now it is a 1m line extending from 2m in front of the ram. This should stop being able to use the ram backwards against a wall.
  • Added a max slope the ram can be used on.
  • Battering ram will now take a small amount of damage when it deals damage.
  • Added a message for when a projectile is destroyed upon landing.

 

Edit: Permission checks should be fixed now too

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Please consider that you can repair 10 damage in a couple of seconds. Whilst it's (somewhat) balanced with catapulting, from a quick glance at the damages the ram does, it looks like repairing would be very easy. 

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Posted (edited)

On 04/04/2017 at 11:01 AM, Budda said:

 

Edit: Permission checks should be fixed now too

 

Don't seem to be able to hit anything on the 'cooking' server now. Getting '[12:16:39] You cannot fire the stone brick to there, you are not allowed.' even when the catapult would not hit anything! Probably something to do with the fences, and catapults, being in the perimeter of Now We Are Cooking?

 

---

 

This does not appear to be anything to do with being in the perimeter - just built a catapult on the beach, outside the perimeter - and am getting the same message trying to fire the catapult from there.

Edited by Wulfmaer
updated with a test outside perimeter

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1 hour ago, Wulfmaer said:

 

Don't seem to be able to hit anything on the 'cooking' server now. Getting '[12:16:39] You cannot fire the stone brick to there, you are not allowed.' even when the catapult would not hit anything! Probably something to do with the fences, and catapults, being in the perimeter of Now We Are Cooking?

 

---

 

This does not appear to be anything to do with being in the perimeter - just built a catapult on the beach, outside the perimeter - and am getting the same message trying to fire the catapult from there.

 

Thanks, will double check it all.

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When i shoot with cata on long distance, I cannt see the object flying through the air, anymore. When I shoot with trebucket over long distance all is fine. (Burning object as tracers would be look awesome at night time :D )

 

 

 

Why can I load a cata in 0 seconds, but for loading a trebucket I need around 6 seconds??

 

I test to destroy Catas, rams and trebuckets with a hugh axe. With 90 skills, I made with one hit: 10dmg for cata,    4,3dmg for trebucket and 0,2dmg on the ram.

Imo there should be an option to destroy rams very quick, bc what most ppl do when they get raided, they drag the catas into there deed mines. This option is for rams very bad. I guess nobody want some ready made rams inside there deed mines.

 

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Posted (edited)

2b624a04077ab982dba7f324e8b53018.jpg

 

Made a building on a 30 slope hill, I was not able to actually hit the wall with any ram actions(it let me swing just says it hits nothing, I started mid tile pretty far from the wall the picture is where it wouldn't let me push more) I pushed it 1 push and tried again till wouldn't let me push more and was not able to deal damage at any point on the hill. Not sure if its intended, I only brought it up because I tried it on the side of the dirt wall and it gave a message saying you couldn't even attempt to start swinging it so I assume this might be an issue with the math possibly since 30 slope seems reasonable to use it on still.

Edited by Darklords

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1 hour ago, Darklords said:

Made a building on a 30 slope hill, I was not able to actually hit the wall with any ram actions(it let me swing just says it hits nothing, I started mid tile pretty far from the wall the picture is where it wouldn't let me push more) I pushed it 1 push and tried again till wouldn't let me push more and was not able to deal damage at any point on the hill. Not sure if its intended, I only brought it up because I tried it on the side of the dirt wall and it gave a message saying you couldn't even attempt to start swinging it so I assume this might be an issue with the math possibly since 30 slope seems reasonable to use it on still.

 

Line it up so the tip of the model is near the actual wall point - it only has a 1m distance in front of the ram that it will actually check for things hit, and going from that picture it looks like it may be starting from well inside the house already.

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1 minute ago, Budda said:

 

Line it up so the tip of the model is near the actual wall point - it only has a 1m distance in front of the ram that it will actually check for things hit, and going from that picture it looks like it may be starting from well inside the house already.

The picture was as close as it would let me, I started near the bottom and kept pushing it and trying again till it wouldn't let me move it more forward, ill try again in a second and see if maybe messed it up some how but I tried it from a lot of distances from far to close the picture was just so you know what the house looks like.

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80e7e92b5c6d579962a83c09640d8127.png84f7bcd14ca97e3ed2509175df1fcde3.png

690daa5d1080ce46840247bb4c3265a8.png

 

 

All give me the message [23:44:55] The beam of the battering ram hits nothing. I've tried it from more than just these distances was more just an example of how close I've tried it but I've also tried it more in the middle and any distance I can push it in between.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Catapult shot arch animations do not show the item flying through the air some times cant figure out the exact cause some times it does some times it does not. Seems like its longer shots that vanish as fails which only go a few tiles show up 100% of the time compared to the longer shots which seems to be 50/50 to show the arch animation( as far as I can tell).

 

----------

 

It sounds as though the rock shards hit 2 walls, an item, and nothing else.
[TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 1.5261104, damage: 15.261105 total things hit: 2. Total distance: 26.01008m or 6.50252 tiles.

Only could find damage on 1 wall after many many shots of it saying that it hit more than 1 from multiple angles, this is why I asked for the test debug to tell us each wall hit with more detail(basically the wall ql and current damage plus the wall type and not just wall) because I can't tell which wall its thinking its hitting and dealing no damage(test only debug of course) and cant give you more info to help but the old bug where it thinks it hits multiple walls and only damages a single one still exists and is very common another guy testing around me had the same issues.

----------

 

Arches waaaay to hard to hit, need to not go through the middle of them so easy or spamming arches inside the middle of long houses are going to become meta cant ram or hit them with catapults/trebs without getting super lucky on the angle I only managed to hit ground floor arches after hours of changing up angles and I couldn't hit a second floor arch after trying for what seemed like hours.

 

49ae9fb0eb94bc995d43a5e0741328a4.png(same building from above post on the 30 slops I couldn't hit with the ram)

 

 

---------

 

On arches note, arches in caves will make buildings impossible to remove without tons of bashing I do like that arches make sense to not be hit by rams and catapults but balance wise they need to act as normal walls or they will become the meta to spam inside buildings to make them almost impossible to remove without stupid amount of bashing unless we can find a good middle ground for them which im defiantly for if it makes it possible to hit them but currently its going to become way to over powered if left like it is now. Mines will have no way to remove except bashing since you cant catapult in mines and rams cannot hit arches.

 

--------

 

You removed the message that told us which building name was hit, and that's going to make things much more frustrating and I do not see a good reason it was removed other than you didn't realize how important it was because of how easy it is to obscure buildings and make it almost impossible to see without climbing to it to see if your hitting see a specific building that is dozens of tiles long and may have back walls inside that you cant examine because of distance.

 

 

Edited by Darklords
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Test updated with a few more changes. This will likely be the last set of changes before it goes live for the first iteration. More changes will likely come in the next few weeks depending on live feedback.

  • Added bonus damage when using the battering ram when you're a citizen/ally and have permission to destroy walls.
  • Added 3x bonus to bashing arched walls.
  • Offset the battering ram line it checks for walls to better line up with the model.
  • Added bonus damage to bashing a battering ram to line up with bashing a catapult.
  • Added message from cata/treb projectiles so they say what buildings they hit, if they hit any.
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My biggest issue I foresee coming is defenders will out repair attackers now because of how difficult catapulting mechanics have become. Moving one tile over will require a whole new calculation to hit the target. Maybe nerf repair a bit so it requires both bricks and mortar. Also nerf the amount it repairs, currently (iirc) it's 10 damage repaired per brick and you don't even need to be on the tile being hit you can stand one tile off while doing the action. So total of 9 bricks to fully a repair a wall at 90 damage. When it takes your 20 bricks and 20 mortar to make a fresh wall. 

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1 hour ago, Egard said:

My biggest issue I foresee coming is defenders will out repair attackers now because of how difficult catapulting mechanics have become. Moving one tile over will require a whole new calculation to hit the target. Maybe nerf repair a bit so it requires both bricks and mortar. Also nerf the amount it repairs, currently (iirc) it's 10 damage repaired per brick and you don't even need to be on the tile being hit you can stand one tile off while doing the action. So total of 9 bricks to fully a repair a wall at 90 damage. When it takes your 20 bricks and 20 mortar to make a fresh wall. 

If that is the case, it can be tweaked and adjusted as we go on.

 

The issue we face with things like these is we need actual feedback regarding actions done, rather than just hypotheticals thrown out. If you suspect something will work one way, we have the test server setup to allow you and your deed/kingdom/friends/worst enemies to come and try out a mock scenario.

 

If it needs to come to live before we can get actual feedback as opposed to fears about how it will work, or hypothetical impacts, then we will do our best to make sure that all bugs and exploits involved are addressed (thank you for reporting them in this thread btw!) and work with live feedback once it lands in the game and the PvP community actually uses the new mechanics.

 

This does stretch out how fast we can react, as test servers can literally be tweaked and updated in hours/minutes, but we cannot bring down live servers every few hours to adjust figures and take feedback.

 

The test server is extremely important, not only for us ensuring that the majority, if not all bugs are identified and removed prior to something going live, but also to gain feedback on how mechanics feel in the actual game, as opposed to how they sound on paper.

 

We will continue to work on communicating PvP changes in threads like these, and working with those who do provide feedback, so please do everything you can to work with us, it helps us both in the long run.

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