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Nappy

Reducing PVP FUD

113 posts in this topic

FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.

 

In the Wurm PVP world fear, uncertainty and doubt continually raises it's head, largely because people worry as a result of not hearing clear plans for what will be happening in PVP. The goal of this thread is to have a civil, patient and constructively listening discussion where hopefully the Wurm Development team, assisted by Community Relations, can answer a few questions that will hopefully reduce or remove the PVP FUD.

 

Originally this was posted as part of a suggestion thread and at the suggestion of the moderation team I am moving it to it's own independent thread instead. Hopefully this helps the PVP community.

 

As a very interested bystander looking in I would like to post a few suggestions/questions since this thread has really gone from a very specific question into a more general thread about first HOTS and then eventually PVP in Wurm in total.

 

@Retrogradein your official capacity please reply with your best answer to the following questions:

 

1) Is Wurm/Code Club still committed to having PVP in Wurm?

 

2) Is Wurm/Code Club development of PVP in maintenance mode (meaning no new features etc except as part of code fixes)?

 

3) Does Wurm/Code Club have a PVP swimlane in the roadmap which lays out development plans for the PVP side of Wurm?

 

4) Does Wurm/Code Club have a realistic development roadmap that includes major PVP changes in 2017 Quarter 1, 2017 Quarter 2, 2017 Quarter 3, 2017 Quarter 4, 2018+. If so, even at only the highest level, major changes are expected in ......?

 

5) Will Wurm/Code Club officially consider replacing current Elevation map with one that will better support PVP? 

 

6) Will Wurm/Code Club sponsor a community competition to design a new Elevation map?

 

7) Will Wurm/Code Club consider other server changes that might support better PVP as well (like a new single PVP server that runs at 5x skill gain etc)?

 

By answering these questions I am hoping clarity will be provided that can replace the ongoing fear of PVP dying with some concrete/official information that will provide hope to those who remain PVPing in WO.

 

~Nappy

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Getting a little click happy on the button while it was busy? Patience, grasshoppah.

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36 minutes ago, Klaa said:

Getting a little click happy on the button while it was busy? Patience, grasshoppah.

Caught me. The special time delay feature of the latest forum software can be a touch annoying sometimes. In this case I couldn't remember if I had already clicked or not - the delay had been that long - grin.

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Posted (edited)

A big issue for me is, they came to us already almost a year ago saying it was a priority for them to work on pvp and than we had to basically pester them every news post for months just to get 1 minor issue like the info minister seeing people who enter kingdom influence fixed after pvp was supposedly a "focus" and they went around to everyone asking how they could fix it than they forgot about it or decided on other priority's for the last year instead after hyping all of us up that things would finally happen ya that was a great idea.

 

So for me, and a lot of other users I play with a plan is so past due that action is the only thing that would shut most of us up after being strung along for so long and lied to over and over about when or if something would be fixed going back even before the current people where in charge the cycle just went on when the torch was passed down and we had hope for a little bit with retro coming in to talk to us that maybe just maybe you would do something positive for once for pvp servers without us having to force you to do it through weeks of pestering and asking where it is. Nope clearly to much to ask for...

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love them to give out an action plan for what they are going to do but I won't believe it nor will I stop giving them crap about it till I see something concrete being actually done.  Talk is cheep and we have had so much talk and almost 0 action on it.

 

It almost comes down to the old saying "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" I'm upto letting them fool me about 8 times now so I'm feeling pretty stupid and don't know if I can place my trust in them till they decide to stop talking about it and actually do something about it.

Edited by Darklords
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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Nappy said:

1) Is Wurm/Code Club still committed to having PVP in Wurm?

 

2) Is Wurm/Code Club development of PVP in maintenance mode (meaning no new features etc except as part of code fixes)?

 

3) Does Wurm/Code Club have a PVP swimlane in the roadmap which lays out development plans for the PVP side of Wurm?

 

4) Does Wurm/Code Club have a realistic development roadmap that includes major PVP changes in 2017 Quarter 1, 2017 Quarter 2, 2017 Quarter 3, 2017 Quarter 4, 2018+. If so, even at only the highest level, major changes are expected in ......?

 

5) Will Wurm/Code Club officially consider replacing current Elevation map with one that will better support PVP? 

 

6) Will Wurm/Code Club sponsor a community competition to design a new Elevation map?

 

7) Will Wurm/Code Club consider other server changes that might support better PVP as well (like a new single PVP server that runs at 5x skill gain etc)?

 

By answering these questions I am hoping clarity will be provided that can replace the ongoing fear of PVP dying with some concrete/official information that will provide hope to those who remain PVPing in WO.

 

~Nappy

No.

There is your answer.

You dont need retro to do it.

I'm so fed up with the lies and false promises.

 

Stop wasting time trying to change anything and just accept the fact pvp is not going to last.

Edited by Zekezor
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1 hour ago, Zekezor said:

No.

There is your answer.

You dont need retro to do it.

I'm so fed up with the lies and false promises.

 

Stop wasting time trying to change anything and just accept the fact pvp is not going to last.

Sadly I see the same fate. 

 

The only thing consistent wurm has had is lies and frankly people are fed up. There are new games literally around the corner that have much of what wurm offers and more that will end up stealing more of wurm pop attention. 

 

I along with others would love to see a drastic change in wurm to really make PvP shine but the fear by the wurm team to make any drastic changes seems to be running the show. I do think wurm could actually be made to be fun and could actually gain population but that would require some major changes that I believe start with REAL Balance of armor types... People have pleaded for changes to make more viable armor options and the empty promise by our lovely wurm team about oh we can always come back to tweak things later seems to only be fluff cause it never gets done. 

 

For the OP questions... Some of your questions are sound and some are only about epic and new servers... I recommend keeping it to fundamentals first and once they learn to get Balance right more talks could be had. I think all the servers could be fine if they did something about the imbalances meditation, armor, true strike cast timer/cool down. 

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How to fix pvp in 2 steps.

 

#1 Hire a well known unbiased pvper as lead pvp designer

#2 Fix pvp.

 

Thing is none of you have really tried to go about that yet? All I ever see is just threads about nothing which ultimately lead nowhere productive.

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13 minutes ago, Niki said:

unbiased pvper

 

And that's where the plan fails right away :P

 

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dont need to be unbiased, all they have to do is push out changes that are needed and agreed by basically the whole community (normally just a few trolls who vote no on reasonable suggestions). That alone will make a huge difference.

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Current strategy by the devs is not to do anything by the looks of things.

 

Sadly this tactic is detrimental to the PvP community. In most other games new patches come out, which are used to boost population levels in the hopes of retaining players. We've outlined time and time again what Wurm could do to do this, however it falls upon deaf ears.

 

The question is, when do the devs think the PvP community will give up on this game? 

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16 hours ago, Nappy said:

FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.

 

In the Wurm PVP world fear, uncertainty and doubt continually raises it's head, largely because people worry as a result of not hearing clear plans for what will be happening in PVP. The goal of this thread is to have a civil, patient and constructively listening discussion where hopefully the Wurm Development team, assisted by Community Relations, can answer a few questions that will hopefully reduce or remove the PVP FUD.

 

Originally this was posted as part of a suggestion thread and at the suggestion of the moderation team I am moving it to it's own independent thread instead. Hopefully this helps the PVP community.

 

As a very interested bystander looking in I would like to post a few suggestions/questions since this thread has really gone from a very specific question into a more general thread about first HOTS and then eventually PVP in Wurm in total.

 

@Retrogradein your official capacity please reply with your best answer to the following questions:

 

1) Is Wurm/Code Club still committed to having PVP in Wurm?

Definitely, not much else i can say other than yes

2) Is Wurm/Code Club development of PVP in maintenance mode (meaning no new features etc except as part of code fixes)?

No, our plans extend far beyond simple bug fixes and minor code changes, they include complete overhauls of systems such as priests and meditation as well as possible new epic only features. I’d say the overhauls alone count as beyond maintenance mode.

3) Does Wurm/Code Club have a PVP swimlane in the roadmap which lays out development plans for the PVP side of Wurm?

    Yes, and a specific roadmap outlining the rough plans for PvP will be up soon. We’ve avoided it in the past due to a) limited dev resources for it and b ) the back and forth nature of Pvp changes, requiring a lot more interaction and discussion than PvE changes, which are fairly easy to schedule and plan by comparison.

4) Does Wurm/Code Club have a realistic development roadmap that includes major PVP changes in 2017 Quarter 1, 2017 Quarter 2, 2017 Quarter 3, 2017 Quarter 4, 2018+. If so, even at only the highest level, major changes are expected in ......?

    While some non PvP specific projects are first (overhaul tutorial, UI (though these do affect PvP as well indirectly)) more PvP oriented overhauls are planned (priests/meditation) as well as PvP specific updates planned. Not sure about any specific time but some projects are in the discovery and planning phase, and we’ll begin using public feedback to further shape them within the next month or so.

5) Will Wurm/Code Club officially consider replacing current Elevation map with one that will better support PVP?

    We don’t want to displace those who currently play on it, the original overhaul caused a spike in people interested, but also caused a lot of long time players to leave, and we’d like to look at alternative options to the problem rather than just another reset

6) Will Wurm/Code Club sponsor a community competition to design a new Elevation map?

    While it’s a great idea, it does open a lot of issues, with potential preference being inbuilt by the designer, or claims of bias within the creation of the map. We’ve discussed using player generated maps in the past for random ideas, but the fact boils down to 90% of it would have to be generated by us ensure it is impartial.

7) Will Wurm/Code Club consider other server changes that might support better PVP as well (like a new single PVP server that runs at 5x skill gain etc)?

An interesting idea, but i dont think a third pvp cluster is the right idea.

By answering these questions I am hoping clarity will be provided that can replace the ongoing fear of PVP dying with some concrete/official information that will provide hope to those who remain PVPing in WO.

 

~Nappy

But yes, as said before, talk is cheap, I know it’s been a rather long wait for PvP, it does not mean that we do not or have not paid attention to it. I’d like to remind you all that we have had many public discussions and many changes and bug fixes come in, the road map will also outline current projects and future possible projects. One important thing to remember is development resources are limited, and we have to plan accordingly, this does mean changes take time, and there's little else we can do about that.

 

2 hours ago, Niki said:

How to fix pvp in 2 steps.

#1 Hire a well known unbiased pvper as lead pvp designer

#2 Fix pvp.

Thing is none of you have really tried to go about that yet? All I ever see is just threads about nothing which ultimately lead nowhere productive.

Anyone who wishes to apply as a volunteer developer knows how to go about it.

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20 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

5) Will Wurm/Code Club officially consider replacing current Elevation map with one that will better support PVP?

    We don’t want to displace those who currently play on it, the original overhaul caused a spike in people interested, but also caused a lot of long time players to leave, and we’d like to look at alternative options to the problem rather than just another reset

 

Wow, the relief that I feel can not be properly expressed.

 

Epic would not survive another map reset.

 

I'm also glad to hear that Epic is still being thought about, because oh boy do we feel abandoned.

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3 hours ago, Niki said:

How to fix pvp in 2 steps.

 

#1 Hire a well known unbiased pvper as lead pvp designer

#2 Fix pvp.

 

Thing is none of you have really tried to go about that yet? All I ever see is just threads about nothing which ultimately lead nowhere productive.

 

There have been a number of WU PVP servers where new things have been tried directly related to PVP and the impact on the enjoyment and interest in the game has been dramatic. In some cases server population has been higher, more death tabs etc then the official WO servers.

 

Some people would prefer the stability of playing WO on an official server. If WO can learn from the experiences of the various WU PVP servers then WO PVP should also experience a dramatic comeback. This doesn't mean that the WU servers have all the answers. It just means that unlike pre-WU there is a wealth of experience and lessons learned that can be shared and should lead towards better PVP decisions especially if the official dev team has limited PVP experience themselves (widely mentioned by players as a potential issue, not sure personally how much PVP experience the devs have).

 

~Nappy

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Just removing the negative terraforming from Valrei is a huge step forward (I did read that somewhere, didn't I? can't find the reference now), and shows that Epic hasn't been abandoned.  It always seemed a bit harsh when I played there, so a big thumbs up to whichever dev finally decided to do some pvp qol stuff - hopefully they'll have more pleasant surprises in the wings.

 

Someone please tell me if I got that wrong - I can't find the terraforming info anymore!

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3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

One important thing to remember is development resources are limited, and we have to plan accordingly, this does mean changes take time, and there's little else we can do about that.

 

Yes indeed, since development resources are limited it is not a wise idea to waste but a fraction of them to the pvp side of the game, as per player participation in it is disproportionate to the time that has been spent on it in the past and in the future, as you have mentioned in this post.

 

In plain words, stop wasting development time on the pvp aspects of the game and imposing negative restrictions on the PvE side of the game due to their conflicting objectives. Let this crippled horse die its own death, as within Wurm it will never draw any significant player base or income. Really, give it up.

 

=Ayes=

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Ayes said:

 

Yes indeed, since development resources are limited it is not a wise idea to waste but a fraction of them to the pvp side of the game, as per player participation in it is disproportionate to the time that has been spent on it in the past and in the future, as you have mentioned in this post.

 

In plain words, stop wasting development time on the pvp aspects of the game and imposing negative restrictions on the PvE side of the game due to their conflicting objectives. Let this crippled horse die its own death, as within Wurm it will never draw any significant player base or income. Really, give it up.

 

=Ayes=

 

And what information do you have to back this statement? 

 

PvP deeds cost far more monthly than PvE deeds, that alone shortens the gap. Not to mention more alts are required for PvP players.

 

Whilst I agree the PvP population is far less than the PvE population, the average spending on prem/chars is far greater for PvP players which evens the scales.

Edited by Firestarter
Moderation edit.
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Hey epic is dead again, lets reset the map! That worked last time! Right?

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1 hour ago, Ayes said:

 

Yes indeed, since development resources are limited it is not a wise idea to waste but a fraction of them to the pvp side of the game, as per player participation in it is disproportionate to the time that has been spent on it in the past and in the future, as you have mentioned in this post.

 

In plain words, stop wasting development time on the pvp aspects of the game and imposing negative restrictions on the PvE side of the game due to their conflicting objectives. Let this crippled horse die its own death, as within Wurm it will never draw any significant player base or income. Really, give it up.

 

=Ayes=

 

From a straight and narrow perspective I can understand the point you are making here. 

 

From a larger, more strategic view, it's important to also carefully consider a few interesting impacts where the PVP players are often providing way more value to the game then their relative population compared to PVE would merit.

 

PVP players are always seeking advantages. As a result they tend to push the boundaries on what can be done, are more creative with directions the game could go in and often identify game breaking bugs including many non-PVP ones that would not be identified until much, much later.

 

If the Code Club development team can balance this properly then there is the potential to keep PVE players happy while also not losing the incredibly valuable resource that many PVP players represent.

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5 minutes ago, Nappy said:

 

From a straight and narrow perspective I can understand the point you are making here. 

 

From a larger, more strategic view, it's important to also carefully consider a few interesting impacts where the PVP players are often providing way more value to the game then their relative population compared to PVE would merit.

 

PVP players are always seeking advantages. As a result they tend to push the boundaries on what can be done, are more creative with directions the game could go in and often identify game breaking bugs including many non-PVP ones that would not be identified until much, much later.

 

If the Code Club development team can balance this properly then there is the potential to keep PVE players happy while also not losing the incredibly valuable resource that many PVP players represent.

I find this interesting that you point out PVPers are known to exploit bugs and that you call that a good thing Nappy. It used to be frowned upon in wurm hehe. It's been long known that if you want to know what bugs are floating in wurm, ask a pvper. If the pvp crowd was more helpful in getting the bugs fixed instead of abusing them, then reporting them when the other side starts using them in hopes of getting them a ban I'd have more sympathy for them. Having traveled wurm extensively, I'm unconvinced that pvp is anymore creative then pve in how they play, they simply play to a higher Nth degree, aka more ruthless.

What I do know is from history, Rolf spent years trying to entice his pvp server numbers up with affinities, moonmetals and hotas. History has shown that wurm is by and large a pve game. As per the server graphs on the wiki, Total prem players is 3042, Chaos is 238 at time of this typing, Desertion:31,Serentiy:43, Affliction:69, Elevation:103. My calculator says that Pve vs Pvp at the time of this typing is 2558 vs 484.  We can talk about how much pvp pays into the game and so on and so forth (Along all the selling from pvp to pve on freedom I see), but I fail to see how a small minority comes on the forums so often and demands their own dev and their own fixes. My calculator says 15% of total toons online atm are pvp, but maths... As near as I can tell, Xanadians have about the same right per pop as all of pvp to come onto the forums and demand their own dev and their own fix list :P Wurm is no longer in 2010 or 2013 or 2015, and either adapt or perish ;)

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Anyone who wishes to apply as a volunteer developer knows how to go about it.

 

This is NOT a bashing, sorry if it sounds like one...

 

Either way, alone 2 people I know made applications to volunteer as a Dev but didn't even get an answer, at all.

One of the guys known as @Army tried even 3 times, but after not even getting a simple answer he obviously stopped trying.

This guy I am talking about coded custom content for several PvP servers and in my eyes is a god, so what you stated, to just simply apply, is ######...sorry.

 

Let's not even talk about the second guy, cause he is the main target of forum mods.

He posts bugfixes MONTHS before they magically get into the game and doesn't even get credit for it...

 

Whw0Zal.jpg

 

just got this screenshot btw, ye...just apply....pffff sure

Edited by Quicktor
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2 hours ago, Ayes said:

 

Yes indeed, since development resources are limited it is not a wise idea to waste but a fraction of them to the pvp side of the game, as per player participation in it is disproportionate to the time that has been spent on it in the past and in the future, as you have mentioned in this post.

 

In plain words, stop wasting development time on the pvp aspects of the game and imposing negative restrictions on the PvE side of the game due to their conflicting objectives. Let this crippled horse die its own death, as within Wurm it will never draw any significant player base or income. Really, give it up.

 

=Ayes=

 

As I've said in the past. Why shouldn't they focus on bringing people back to a portion of the game?

 

And I'll agree with Redd too, PvP deeds tend to be a lot bigger than PvE deeds (Kyara was/is 200x200, or possibly even bigger than that) and there tends to be a lot more deeds on those servers when you factor in things like multiple wardeeds per kingdom. If I recall correctly, templars are also more expensive on PvP servers. All of this is without even going onto priest alts etc.

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Posted (edited)

Leave me out of your issues

473ca2d4d58f47c18c64e32f0fb1b351.png

 

Edited by MootRed
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42 minutes ago, Pingpong said:

I find this interesting that you point out PVPers are known to exploit bugs and that you call that a good thing Nappy. It used to be frowned upon in wurm hehe. It's been long known that if you want to know what bugs are floating in wurm, ask a pvper. If the pvp crowd was more helpful in getting the bugs fixed instead of abusing them, then reporting them when the other side starts using them in hopes of getting them a ban I'd have more sympathy for them. Having traveled wurm extensively, I'm unconvinced that pvp is anymore creative then pve in how they play, they simply play to a higher Nth degree, aka more ruthless.

What I do know is from history, Rolf spent years trying to entice his pvp server numbers up with affinities, moonmetals and hotas. History has shown that wurm is by and large a pve game. As per the server graphs on the wiki, Total prem players is 3042, Chaos is 238 at time of this typing, Desertion:31,Serentiy:43, Affliction:69, Elevation:103. My calculator says that Pve vs Pvp at the time of this typing is 2558 vs 484.  We can talk about how much pvp pays into the game and so on and so forth (Along all the selling from pvp to pve on freedom I see), but I fail to see how a small minority comes on the forums so often and demands their own dev and their own fixes. My calculator says 15% of total toons online atm are pvp, but maths... As near as I can tell, Xanadians have about the same right per pop as all of pvp to come onto the forums and demand their own dev and their own fix list :P Wurm is no longer in 2010 or 2013 or 2015, and either adapt or perish ;)

 

so we should add a xanadu dev AND a pvp dev. sounds good to me

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48 minutes ago, Quicktor said:

 

This is NOT a bashing, sorry if it sounds like one...

 

Either way, alone 2 people I know made applications to volunteer as a Dev but didn't even get an answer, at all.

One of the guys known as @Army tried even 3 times, but after not even getting a simple answer he obviously stopped trying.

This guy I am talking about coded custom content for several PvP servers and in my eyes is a god, so what you stated, to just simply apply, is ######...sorry.

 

Let's not even talk about the second guy, cause he is the main target of forum mods.

He posts bugfixes MONTHS before they magically get into the game and doesn't even get credit for it...

 

Whw0Zal.jpg

 

just got this screenshot btw, ye...just apply....pffff sure

 

yeah, because airing your dirty laundry in public (and contacting all your friends to beg for likes) makes them MORE likely to do what you want.  It's almost like you'd rather crap all over everything than actually get things fixed.  And I see we're making our usual great impression on the pve folks again.

 

PvP needs some attention, and it seems we're getting that, albeit in bits and pieces.  Which, basically, how development usually goes for wurm - the Freedom folks get their pretty pretties in parts as well, by and large.  I see the cooking affinity stuff is still being mucked with, and how long did visible bridles or unicorn equipment take?

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