Propheteer

Hey Devs, Why raid if all the loot is on un-tauntable merchants or alts

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just a question

 

my other question would be, why do you think this is balanced?

Edited by Propheteer

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because it is fun trying to hit walls with a catapult only to find out the catapult wont hit exactly that tile. or you end up having an unfinished floor catching the shots which you cant destroy because the structure would collapse even though there are no started or finished walls above. dont you think this is the fun part?

 

who even needs loot when you can have this kind of fun? :)

Edited by Arium
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I hear pvp is lots of fun, who needs loot?

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35 minutes ago, Propheteer said:

just a question

 

my other question would be, why do you think this is balanced?

 

Last time we tried this, we had to decline putting this on wild due to the merchants at the landing. Please think of the merchants at the landing.

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1 hour ago, Pingpong said:

I hear pvp is lots of fun, who needs loot?

 

pvp is fun, sure.

 

but, in the current meta, lets look at something here

 

pvp = reward

raid =/= pvp

raid =/= loot/reward

 

if raiding is too difficult, it becomes harder for anyone to tip the scales, or for anyone to make land progression, and with every patch raiding becomes harder, and harder, and harder, and loot becomes more and more secure. You basically only raid if you are angry enough that a 37 copper drain is enough to justify 8 hours of work not including the pre-prep and planning.

 

I remember the last capitol raid i attended started because we had no horses, so we took theirs, now, in most cases, its too difficult to even do that in under 5 hours if your deed is designed well and has at least one defender. Basically if you want any loot, and by loot, i mean raw mats as its the only thing you cant cram on a merchant or an alt, youre looking at 48-72 hours of constant siege if you get lucky enough to land back to back disintegrates on reinforced walls in the small window after a drain.

 

This post was meant to try and get something looked at i guess, as the suggestion gets glossed over, so id just point out the meme that you no longer get loot from raiding anymore unless the people you are raiding are noobs. Favorite part of the game has essentially been removed over the course of the past two years.

Edited by Propheteer
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Fair enough, I get that a lot of the goal of pvp is to score loot of some sort or another, my previous post was just repeating a rumor I've oft been told. Without the help of yellow toons and the rise of freedom vaults (not to mention said merchants and alts), any decent level wild combat team should be well secured against a raid and that's the part I don't understand. Everyone I've ever talked to wanted to be fully secured against a raid and wanted to be able to raid the enemy. As a principle this seems counter intuitive to me. I look forward to an open and honest discussion about intended vs unintended usage of mechanics and if any changes will be coming soon :)

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I don't understand bringing alts into the equation.  Last update I noticed about alts was that they would drop loot if enemies were in local or some such.  If you want people to just never be able to log off with anything, why not make that the suggestion.  (yes it is kind of in jest but that is how it is starting to seem to me.)  

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8 minutes ago, Pashka said:

I don't understand bringing alts into the equation.  Last update I noticed about alts was that they would drop loot if enemies were in local or some such.  If you want people to just never be able to log off with anything, why not make that the suggestion.  (yes it is kind of in jest but that is how it is starting to seem to me.)  

 

On chaos, you can log off with anything in your inventory except artifacts with an enemy in your local in five minutes. You cannot clear anything except maybe a wall or two within five minutes.

 

On Epic, it takes a much longer time (although, still not even close to enough if designed within the meta) , easy solution to prevent people from logging in alt, picking up everything, running to safemine, and logging out.

 

Can attest personally if you wish to clear out my deed you need to go through 27 mines, either by bashing 27 steel/silver 80-90ql minedoors, or, disintegrating through a similar number of walls. You have a few hours after a drain to disintegrate with like a 2% chance, so good luck with that. It also takes many hours to bash a metal door, even with 10-15 people.

 

It is not even possible to bash into a mine fast enough with 50 people to get an alt logging out on Chaos, and we aren't going to talk about how unrealistic that would be because that would be more than 100% of the server population on saturday primetime attending your raid on your side.

Edited by Propheteer
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so what solutions would allow for risk without becoming too easy?

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15 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

so what solutions would allow for risk without becoming too easy?

 

Double or triple disintegration chance, change the damage curve on metal doors, make catapulting more predictable and make the messages clearer to read (similar to the old system where if you hit a tile, you actually damage the walls on the tile reliably, not now where a 10 tile winch on perfectly flat ground with 0 degree turn is 10 tiles, but, a 3 degree turn is 11 tiles), allow taunting as its still difficult even on epic with 50+ taunting, make mailing with enemies in local not possible if not already implemented, non prem accounts drop gear on logout

 

i can think of some more

Edited by Propheteer
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remove the ability to shaker orb/strongwall tiles on your deed while it is under siege (could be controversial, but would actually give players a reason to bash minedoors without fear of it being instantly shut + reinforced), alternatively require minedoors to be constructed with a door lock and give it the ability to be lockpicked (also could be controversial), slightly increase damage dealt by a catapult or a trebuchet allowing people to prepare less ammo (yes, i am aware 90 skill is pretty good, i'm also aware 100 is pretty good, but, this could still be changed.), cap the number of guards on chaos similar to the way guards are capped on epic, remove the cr buff defenders get proportional to the number of enemies on deed (large raids are already terrible as is, especially in conjunction with 50 templars, basically results in everyone permanently crashing. compounded by giving the defenders a buff when your raid force steps on deed.)

 

Edited by Propheteer
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On epic we have the ability to taunt merchants and even on accounts that have 50+ actual skill in taunting which is like 70+ on the curve it is super hard and I have only seen it done once and took hours to do so. 

 

Increase disintegration chance, so it's not the stupid like 1% chance or something it is now. 

 

There hasnt been a single update has promoted pvp or made it even worth while just more of a chore then anything. 

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But would allowing merchants to be taunted affect how loot is currently hidden? wouldnt this just push it on to alts, and then if thats bypassed, off chaos entirely?

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9 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

But would allowing merchants to be taunted affect how loot is currently hidden? wouldnt this just push it on to alts, and then if thats bypassed, off chaos entirely?

Could happen, worked fine on Epic for the most part though. Youd be surprised at the reaches people go for convenience, if anyone is determined enough they could just ferry it off chaos entirely yes. Theres not much you can do to prevent that, we had invested many hours in brainstorming this on Epic where some people would just put stuff on merchants on JKH where it was mechanically impossible for us to obtain.

 

I also wanted to say, the general idea is to make it take long enough to reward the people involved in the planning and construction of deeds, but easy enough so it is enticing for people to raid while at the same time encouraging people to actually defend the place. I'm not sure how to better describe it, but i think you get my intention.

 

I'd also like to make it clear that it is probably not a good idea to implement everything i listed (i don't think itll happen, but yeah), if you did that it would probably be too easy. I was just listing options, stuff should be sifted through and picked accordingly after testing.

Edited by Propheteer

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It's a step in the right direction. Ways to prevent alts are increase the log out timer when enemy in local. Right now you can log out in 5 mins if enemies are in local on chaos and epic it's like an hour to leave world if you log out while being raided. The current leave world time is 2 mins longer then a single disintegrate making it nearly impossible to reach someone in time. Also could add they drop gear if they are non prem and log out with enemies in local. Preventing them from bypassing alts and mailing it off server is just make mailing not allowed when enemies in local. 

Edited by Egard

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Jesus christ, LOL

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Change whole game please.

 

Egard for Dev

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1 hour ago, Mclovin said:

are you trolling

 

Why would I, a proper and respectable GM, be trolling?

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/81926-add-merchant-threatening-to-wild-server/&do=findComment&comment=821730

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/81926-add-merchant-threatening-to-wild-server/&do=findComment&comment=822122

 

Now take a look at who voted for what. You'll notice a trend :) Also, the arguments in that thread is just exactly, as I said, "think of the merchants".

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3 minutes ago, Jberg said:

 

Why would I, a proper and respectable GM, be trolling?

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/81926-add-merchant-threatening-to-wild-server/&do=findComment&comment=821730

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/81926-add-merchant-threatening-to-wild-server/&do=findComment&comment=822122

 

Now take a look at who voted for what. You'll notice a trend :) Also, the arguments in that thread is just exactly, as I said, "think of the merchants".

 

Yup, but times change.

 

At the time of that post, taunting merchants was still a fledging idea, it hadn't even been really tested on Epic hardly at all, if at all by that time, and nobody uses merchants for selling anything on Chaos anymore.

 

I'm pretty sure most people didn't even have taunting skill until two bouts of taunting exploits went around before I started to see it during raids, after it was proven effective, people started doing it more and training it using the enemy kingdom alt and a circle of friends method.

Edited by Propheteer

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1 minute ago, Propheteer said:

 

Yup, but times change.

You mean you run the server now instead? Right? That's what I got from your statement.

 

Weak.

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21 minutes ago, Jberg said:

You mean you run the server now instead? Right? That's what I got from your statement.

 

It shouldn't be difficult to find me making and supporting a taunting merchant thread the last two times i was on chaos, both times on the losing side.

 

I'm not sure if i even posted in that thread.

 

Edit:

 

After reading, i actually did not post in that thread, nor vote in it, which means as far as i can remember i have always 100% been in favor of allowing merchants to be taunted on both servers, so..... not sure what the point is here. (Nor did anyone im playing with currently)

 

So not sure what you mean by "weak", and if you want to pull that card, as inaccurate as it is, it's not difficult to find dozens of ideas downvoted by MR when they were losing, but supported when they were winning. I guess this makes you weak too.

 

Looking at the date too, i wasn't even a part of the "side" you are claiming me to be a part of at the time. That was after i got kicked out because i got blamed for Cndo's mistake with selling Crimsonwolf to Red. There are multiple people who can vouch for that too.

 

 

But i'll applaud you for making up some random ###### to try and de-legitimize my post, i guess?

Edited by Propheteer

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Jberg makes a point. You are a LOT more vocal about these changes now that you are winning? And all other changes based on becoming more powerful. I am not saying you did not feel the way in the past. But suddenly 3 suggestions a day, mainly geared towards the success of those on top. 

 

Looks bad honestly.

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11 minutes ago, Rolandt said:

Jberg makes a point. You are a LOT more vocal about these changes now that you are winning? And all other changes based on becoming more powerful. I am not saying you did not feel the way in the past. But suddenly 3 suggestions a day, mainly geared towards the success of those on top. 

 

Looks bad honestly.

 

If you were able to clean my deeds in a reasonable time, we could work out a several gold payment and you get to keep the loot. I have -ALWAYS- been in favor of making raiding easier, and i have -ALWAYS- been vocal about it when the servers aren't as active. I think more and I write more when there's nothing to do, sorry to say.

 

His point holds no water regardless, that suggestion literally has nothing to do with myself or anyone i play with, none of us commented or voted on it, and pretty much all of us have been in support of these changes for as long as i can remember.

 

 

As i can predict a few certain people coming to try and trigger me soon, i'll go ahead and say this. What bothers me the most is that the people least interested in raiding seem to be the ones who don't care its that difficult, but they are also the people who claim its too difficult and time consuming to be worth doing.

 

 

On another note, why is changing raiding gearing success for those at the top? I remember on Epic we would go from nobodies all year, and start off or end the summer with a big raid that would make or break the rest of the year for us. We were much smaller than the other kingdoms, and for a long time had much weaker accounts, and had nearly no moonmetal. This is how we overcame those obstacles, a well planned, well-time, and just a well thought out raid. Changed the course of the server multiple times. With how difficult it is now, if anything, it is impossible for people not on top to make any progress, if you're against that, then, well, i'm not quite sure what to tell you unless you just never see yourself raiding anything mildly important thats decently built.

Edited by Propheteer

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