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Holar

Shield training

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1 minute ago, Angelklaine said:

I read in the wiki that fighting above 70 on mobs has diminishing returns. I think you need pvp to bring it higher reliably. 

Pvp gives much higher skill gain but if you haven't ever monitored the pvp forums practically every pvp kill is posted, it's extremely unreliable. Kills arent super commonplace. However many mobs give .015fs per kill over 70. The only worthless mob for the difficulty is trolls. Which are just terrible and need either nerfed, skillgain buffed or removed from the game ideally since they're just a nuisance and if I was a new player would be game breaking

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12 minutes ago, salahahdin said:

However many mobs give .015fs per kill over 70.

Which ones? In my experience, only certain champions do.

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Greenish is the only other I can recall.

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FS gain post 70 is fine.

Weapon skill gain is fine.

stance skill gain is tolerable.

 

specific shield skill gain is abysmal. I've got like 22 LMS

shield bashing is laughable. (currently 7.4 or so)

 

 

Problem: You guys nerfed the only realistic way to train shield skill and didn't provide an alternative method of skilling.

Suggestions:

undo or ease up on the restrictions.

or

make shield skill gain and shield bashing similar to lockpicking, 1 big gain per 10 minutes(for the love of god, get more input on an idea like this though)

or

Make shield skill gain ticks increase vs stronger opponents(block a troll, good gain, block a pig, bad gain) Make sure this doesn't negatively impact newbies that can't handle bigger hits. shields are almost useless at near 0 skill

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15 minutes ago, zigozag said:

Which ones? In my experience, only certain champions do.

My highest gain on non variant mobs was a venerable hell scorpius, scorpions, crocs and hhs are my bread and butter as venerable pull .008-.01 skill

Edited by salahahdin

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Hunting from 71 to 81 FS i got LMS skill from 40 to 67.7. It is tolerable, but could be better. Although when you think it's just one shield type... Maybe they should merge wooden and metal shields' skills, only dividing them by size.

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you need to check the amount of parry actions vs amount of shield ticks, that will tell you how often you block, and how often you gain skill from this blocking.

 

not every block will equal skill, it's still reliant on the same methods to gain skill, balance shield ql with skill and experiment. if you gain too little skill, but you are parrying a lot, reduce the ql of your shield

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14 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

you need to check the amount of parry actions vs amount of shield ticks, that will tell you how often you block, and how often you gain skill from this blocking.

 

not every block will equal skill, it's still reliant on the same methods to gain skill, balance shield ql with skill and experiment. if you gain too little skill, but you are parrying a lot, reduce the ql of your shield

Can you explain though why overall skill increases twice as much as the sub skill, where as it's opposite for weapons?

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Most likely because you aren't balancing it right, and you are performing too easy actions.

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On Zaj I went a full LMS (and similar gain in small axe) point from 52 skill yesterday using less then 30mins SB (so less than an hour actual time considering CCFP) fighting the mix of wolves, spiders, hounds, bears and trolls, not even in a very dense area.

LMS ql is now around 30.

I wonder what is the difference, the skillgain is really good here. For the record, Zaj is a Mag priest but if you scale back the skillgain buff (if it is existing at all :) )it is still very nice.

Edited by Jaz

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On 1/22/2017 at 3:10 PM, Holar said:

 

So the old way to gain shield skill was to use a low quality shield, it increased difficulty to block. The more difficult to block, the more skill etc. Now it seems it's based off of what damage you block, so trolls, greenish mobs etc are better for skill. It's basically the same thing as weapons now, higher quality weapon = more damage = more skill. 

 

4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

you need to check the amount of parry actions vs amount of shield ticks, that will tell you how often you block, and how often you gain skill from this blocking.

 

not every block will equal skill, it's still reliant on the same methods to gain skill, balance shield ql with skill and experiment. if you gain too little skill, but you are parrying a lot, reduce the ql of your shield

 

These 2 statements are contradictory.  Either Holar is mistaken and the old way (low Ql shield) is still the right way or Retrograde is mistaken.

 

I'd suggest (and I might do it this weekend) using a 1QL vs 90QL (no CoC) shield and comparing results.

 

I recently decided to have a vyn alt do some fighting and just tossed a rubbish 50QL CoC LWS + CoC LS on him with studded.  Mostly killing horses/cows and the occasional wolf.   From no skills to 19FS, 25 LS, 4 LWS so the there's about a factor of 5 to 6 difference between FS/LS and LWS.   Setting aside common knowledge about how it does (or is perceived to) work about more damage = more skill I see no good reason for such a discrepancy.  

 

The only reason I can think for such a thing is the PVE vs PVP mechanic.  On PVE the norm now seems to be to ignore shield and roll around with LT 2-handers.  In PVP it's still dominated by something+shield.  If that's the case it makes some sense to not allow a critical PVP skill be driven by grinding PVE actions (hunting) though that argument loses a lot of weight when you consider FS and weapon skill which are more critical and still predominately derived from PVE actions.

Edited by belthize

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tick size vs tick chance is different

 

Actually blocking is easier with the new system, but the skill tick chance still operates on balancing ql with difficulty of blocking. Tick size is based off the damage blocked.

 

 

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Thanks for the responses guys!

 

I don't have a lot of free time during the week, so this weekend I'm going to try shield quality's from 20ql to 60ql and see what the best gains are and report them here. 

 

 

 

 

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I've merged my yesterday combat log with skillgain log on Zaj for anyone who is interested - hopefully I did not mess it up too much. Filtered list with LMS skillgains and shield parries only.

1 point in LMS skill in a bit less than 1.5 hours

 

http://pastebin.com/USd1dVb4

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So maybe past 50 skill its a tad easier to gain? 

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I wonder if it's kind of like cooking,  as your skill goes up preferred QL goes down.  So your skill + shield QL / 2 should equal 40 or 50.  At 1 skill use a 90+ shield, at 50 skill use a 30 ql shield.  At 70 shield you need to be getting down into  the 1 to 10QL shield range.

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I had great gains from 42 - that was the level where the shield overhaul reached me I think.

This LMS is indeed in the 30 range now

On the other toon with 80+ skill a 12ql shield yielded very nice gains - but while getting from 75 the shield went from 60-70ql to 12. I do not plan to reimp it for now ...

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After spending the day revisiting shield-training, I don't see an issue with the current system. 

 

Logging started 2017-01-25
[14:01:32] Shields increased by 0.0018 to 51.5982
[14:01:32] Large metal shield increased by 0.0011 to 70.2162

[21:51:55] Shields increased by 0.0070 to 53.7975
[21:51:55] Large metal shield increased by 0.0075 to 73.0717

 

In this 8 hours I spent a total of 225 minutes (3 hours and 45 minutes) shield training.  After the first two hours I felt that I had gained a good understanding of how skill gain works, so I started using sleep bonus.  As you can see from the time stamped skill ticks above, I have gained the following:

 

2.86 Large metal shield over 3 hours and 45 minutes is about .75 an hour. 

2.20 Shields skill over 3 hours and 45 minutes is about .58 per hour.

 

Given that I didn't start playing yesterday and I already have a considerable amount of skill (50 and 70), I consider these pretty good gains.
 

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Those gains look pretty decent actually wargasm. For sake of the experiment what type of mobs were you fighting ? Shield quality and coc?

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On 1/24/2017 at 2:11 PM, belthize said:

 

 

 Not sure why belthize quote is here lol posting from a phone.. 

 

As Egard said Wargasm what shield QL and mobs are you fighting and is this on Epic or Freedom?

Edited by Holar

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24 minutes ago, Egard said:

Those gains look pretty decent actually wargasm. For sake of the experiment what type of mobs were you fighting ? Shield quality and coc?

 

It started as a 72 ql c86 shield.  Not my best shield, but the only one I could find.  Knowing that the effective QL of an item reduces drastically when the item is significantly damaged, I was noticing that the ticks were getting larger when my shield had high amounts of damage on it (20-40).  As of now, the shield is 48 quality, and the improvement in skill ticks is noticeable. 

 

I was also noticing variations in the size of the ticks I was getting from the same monsters.  The same monster might hit me and provide a large metal shield tick of .0015, the next tick might be .006, so I think it depends on how hard the monster hits (or crits?) you.  My stamina (or lack thereof) seemed to have no effect on the size of the skill ticks, as it should be.

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Holar 

 

20-30 ql shield with botd/coc

 

Fight trolls with aggressive stance

 

High skill in no time

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23 minutes ago, LorenaMontana said:

Fight trolls with aggressive stance

Why?

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On 24/01/2017 at 7:11 PM, belthize said:

So your skill + shield QL / 2 should equal 40 or 50.  At 1 skill use a 90+ shield, at 50 skill use a 30 ql shield.

That would help explain what it is so difficult to make a start, from 1.0 skill

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I think the issue might be in lower skills with this change, I got a fresh toon kited up with shields all 90+ coc, with a few shields in the following quality : 1 , 20 , 40 , 60 ,80 , 90. I will do some testing and see what comes out of it. Assuming since at lower Shield skills, you also have lower stance skill and your weapon skill probably is higher then your shield skill so odds are you parry more then you block, so you arent getting the block ticks as much. Where when your already 50+ shield skill and stance skill you block a lot more. Also I have not noticed much of a difference at higher levels 90+  with blocking in terms of quality I seem to block just as much with a 1 quality then I do with a 90ql. 

Edited by Egard

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