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Retrograde

Poll: should rarity of cooker/container change affinity of meal?

Should rarity change the affinity?   

180 members have voted

  1. 1. Should rarity change the affinity?

    • yes (keep current system as is)
      107
    • No (invalidate all current affinities found via rare+ cookers)
      73


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1 hour ago, Reylaark said:

because someone wants them all this week-end.

 

Why would anyone want to make absolutely every combination? Surely we'd stop once we get our full skill list, in which case keeping the rarity is better; since we could populate that whole skill list with fewer meals. I might as easily accuse you of being the lazy one.

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1 hour ago, Amadee said:

 

 

 

These few sentences really get down to the heart of the matter, imo.  It often takes me many paragraphs to try and say what others are able to say in a few sentences.  :)

 

It would take you about 274 years playing 8 hours per day, every day, to get all the recipes even without the rarities changing affinity types. This is assuming only one cooker can be used, so even more because some foods can be cooked also in forge and some in campfire...

Your grandchildren wont be able to complete them. But do go on, i also believe you have 5 fridges and 7 stoves at home, just for the variety. You wont use them, but why not. And a couple hundred of cupboards, to spend some time looking for that canned food you put away :)

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You could easily accuse me of being lazy. Why you would is a bit beyond me.

I've never said anyone was lazy as I have no knowledge of their work ethic. If something in Wurm begins to feel like work, I just go do one of the other hundred things to do in Wurm.

I'm in no hurry.

 

I don't mind if someone wants to do as few recipes as they need if it's just a means to an end for them.  Personally, I like cooking, so don't see why I would ever stop throwing things in a pan and having fun with it.

 

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3 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

I don't mind if someone wants to do as few recipes as they need if it's just a means to an end for them

 

We still have to do approximately the same number of recipes to populate the affinity list.

No-one has mentioned any particular interest in doing every recipe possible; with over 9000 combinations for jalfrezi without rarity, it isn't even a reasonable task to begin with.

 

I have no idea where your argument comes from, nor how it seems to continue to stand up to scrutiny.

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<shrug> nm

Edited by Stormblade

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The main problem lies in that it will simply make me hesitate to upgrade my cooker, since it'll make it to where I will have to start from scratch in discovering affinities. I shouldn't have to be hesitant when I can get a rare, supreme or fantastic oven (or forge, or still, or whatever). It should be a nobrainer that I would want to have and use it.

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4 hours ago, Kardiwen said:

 

It would take you about 274 years playing 8 hours per day, every day, to get all the recipes even without the rarities changing affinity types. This is assuming only one cooker can be used, so even more because some foods can be cooked also in forge and some in campfire...

Your grandchildren wont be able to complete them. But do go on, i also believe you have 5 fridges and 7 stoves at home, just for the variety. You wont use them, but why not. And a couple hundred of cupboards, to spend some time looking for that canned food you put away :)

 

Where did I say I want to get all the recipes?  Not to put too fine a point on it, but the whole point to what I've been saying is I emphatically do not want to get all the recipes. Ever.  lol.  This is a thread asking for our opinions, and I've been giving mine like everyone else.

 

And as a side note, telling me to "do go on" is a bit personal, don't you think?  Especially since I've not addressed anything to you or anyone else personally in this thread except to compliment one person.  I'm sorry if you may have taken anything to heart or felt I was speaking to you directly and feel it warrants addressing me in that way. I can assure you I never gave you two thoughts. But that's ok.

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I understand the incentive for the people who want more recipes via the rarity variations, but as someone who cooks with various items depending on where I am it would mean a lot of added hassle. Plus the fact that the interface is very lacking, like Ecrir pointed out, so new players won't even know what they're dealing with unless they read the full instruction manual before trying to slap two ingredients together.

 

If there'd been some way in the interface to choose between "normal" and "rare" functionality when using the rare furnaces/pans/whatever that would really be the optimal solution. But I doubt we'll get that, ever.

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2 hours ago, Alyeska said:

The main problem lies in that it will simply make me hesitate to upgrade my cooker, since it'll make it to where I will have to start from scratch in discovering affinities. I shouldn't have to be hesitant when I can get a rare, supreme or fantastic oven (or forge, or still, or whatever). It should be a nobrainer that I would want to have and use it.

It seems like a lot of people have more than one oven, forge, etc. on deed.  I don't, I only have plain old stuff for the moment, but just seems like a lot of other people have multiples for reasons.

 

That's why I'm thinking that since acquiring a supreme doesn't invalidate results from a rare, why not keep having both be a good thing?  You still get the ql and timer bonuses from using the better heat-source. 

 

To me, the thought of a new cookbook associated with the different heat-source sounds a lot more exciting than just an incremental change.  Which is another (again to me) benefit of having it the way it is.  The master chef can use any heat-source anywhere because they've learned using them all. 

 

Just read @Aeris's response, :D.  Seems that to her, what I just said I liked sounds like a hassle.  So yeah, there's opinions and preferences for every way you can look at it.  No lack of diversity in the Wurm community!  Gotta love that.

 

I guess, to me, at the moment mastering all heat sources to be as versatile as possible sounds like a herculean task.  It often seems like the best accomplishments in Wurm are actually herculean.  I've been excited to get the cooking update for years, and love that it has the potential to be a herculean accomplishment as it stands now.

 

Definitions of herculean are subjective of course.  I've read good point from all sides in this thread, and appreciate @Stanleegetting me on track after my annoyed start randomly ridiculing everyone and their sheep.  Them sheep are innocent.

 

Whatever the devs decide, I'll adapt and carry on.  I think it's pretty clear which option I would love to see happen ;)

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23 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

It seems like a lot of people have more than one oven, forge, etc. on deed.  I don't, I only have plain old stuff for the moment, but just seems like a lot of other people have multiples for reasons.

 

That's why I'm thinking that since acquiring a supreme doesn't invalidate results from a rare, why not keep having both be a good thing?  You still get the ql and timer bonuses from using the better heat-source

 

 

Naturally, you could keep using both. but why, when say, I upgraded and got a supreme oven alongside my regular one, would I (have to) want to use my regular one? I'd much prefer to retain my knowledge that I attained from my regular oven and carry it over while enjoying the benefits of my new, supreme oven.

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Like @Alyeskasaid, anything that causes players to treat a better (rare) item as worse or unfavorable is simply poor design.

 

Consider, too, the ability for players to have control in their development. (there's a proper word for this, but it eludes me, and I know it's an important one in game design).

You make a meal. QL80. Affinity you really want, but it's got a 20 minute timer. Not ideal.

You've got options. You could step up the QL of your pan. You could use higher QL ingredients. You can step up your skill. You could use fresh ingredients lol nope and after all this I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole. You could use a rare pan. But you can't use a rare oven, because for some reason that changes everything?

 

It's not intuitive design. It doesn't reward players appropriately for what's involved (especially given the inconsistency between rare container and rare cooker) and may even be considered punishment. To the point that I'm strongly considering stashing away my rare oven out of my kitchen, because its recipes I make with it simply aren't useful for a great majority of players.

 

Sure, when you consider only yourself, why -not- have rare ovens switch things up?

For me, I had to tell someone the food I made with an affinity they wanted they can't replicate, because they don't have a rare oven. Divide the haves from have-nots.

 

I hope this goes through regardless, because currently 42% of the players don't want something that the other 58% can get just by trying a different herb.

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just out of curiosity: by how much do rare/supreme cookers/etc. lengthen the timers?

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Appears to be 10% longer for rare. May be a chunk more for supreme, if the numbers from the google doc are matched.

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9 hours ago, Stanlee said:

Like @Alyeskasaid, anything that causes some players to treat a better (rare) item as worse or unfavorable is simply poor design.

 

Not to draw too fine a point on it, but it's something worth acknowledging imho.  I appreciate your point of view, but it isn't absolute.

 

It isn't a linear design, agreed.  However, if I consider the heat sources the base variable in deciding affinity, and then everything above that fine-tuning the trajectory, it's not necessarily bad design.  It's just a design you don't like.  That may well be reason enough to change it, above my pay-grade, but it isn't reason enough to just dismiss those who like the current design, which may not be enough reason to keep it.  I can handle that.

 

7 hours ago, Herrfritz said:

just out of curiosity: by how much do rare/supreme cookers/etc. lengthen the timers?

This is an excellent question.  A rare forge just adds 1ql when melting down an ore to get a +1ql lump.  To me, that's very "meh,"  but I'm dealing with much lower QL's than the pros.  I'd imagine 89 vs. 90 is a more salient bonus than 39 vs 40.

 

  • I think if the rarity of heat source requires a fresh round of exploration, then the timers can stand to be more significantly lengthened by rarity.  Cost/Benefit.
  • If the rarity of heat sources is simply "shazam, one oven to rule them all!"  then I think the bonus should be a curve similar to others.  Makes little difference until you've reached the upper atmosphere, and most people don't care too much.  It's just a nice "woohoo minute," then move on.

 

Just saw @Stanlee's  reply.  Therefore, using that curve, a rare forge which currently adds 1ql to the ensuing lump (if not mistaken) would add 5ql to a 50ql ore?  Is that correct?

 

A nice markup under current design imho.  Should be curtailed to match other curves otherwise... which is cool too.  A bit less interesting to me, but fair enough.

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1 hour ago, Reylaark said:

 

Not to draw too fine a point on it, but it's something worth acknowledging imho.  I appreciate your point of view, but it isn't absolute.

 

It isn't a linear design, agreed.  However, if I consider the heat sources the base variable in deciding affinity, and then everything above that fine-tuning the trajectory, it's not necessarily bad design.  It's just a design you don't like.  That may well be reason enough to change it, above my pay-grade, but it isn't reason enough to just dismiss those who like the current design, which may not be enough reason to keep it.  I can handle that.

 

This is an excellent question.  A rare forge just adds 1ql when melting down an ore to get a +1ql lump.  To me, that's very "meh,"  but I'm dealing with much lower QL's than the pros.  I'd imagine 89 vs. 90 is a more salient bonus than 39 vs 40.

 

  • I think if the rarity of heat source requires a fresh round of exploration, then the timers can stand to be more significantly lengthened by rarity.  Cost/Benefit.
  • If the rarity of heat sources is simply "shazam, one oven to rule them all!"  then I think the bonus should be a curve similar to others.  Makes little difference until you've reached the upper atmosphere, and most people don't care too much.  It's just a nice "woohoo minute," then move on.

 

Just saw @Stanlee's  reply.  Therefore, using that curve, a rare forge which currently adds 1ql to the ensuing lump (if not mistaken) would add 5ql to a 50ql ore?  Is that correct?

 

A nice markup under current design imho.  Should be curtailed to match other curves otherwise... which is cool too.  A bit less interesting to me, but fair enough.

smelting ore does not add to ql at all, regardless of rarity of the container, so I'm not entirely sure where you got that from.

 

the 10% bonus is to affinity timer, not to ql output.

 

this discussion is about whether or not rarity of the heat source should affect the outcome of the affinity, not balancing the timer against that.

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A rare should give a extra affinity and so on but keeping the previews oven type affinity.

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9 minutes ago, Shamgar said:

A rare should give a extra affinity and so on but keeping the previews oven type affinity.

 

An extra affinity is something I can get behind, so receiving the affinity you receive with a regular cooker, and a bonus one for using a better oven.

Edited by Alyeska

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3 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

smelting ore does not add to ql at all, regardless of rarity of the container, so I'm not entirely sure where you got that from.

Really?  I wonder what I'm thinking of that adds 1ql to the ensuing product based on rarity of the container then.  I'll probably remember when it's no longer relevant.:P  That's gonna bother me though, the heck am I thinking of?  Wait, maybe it's the rare ore that smelts into a lump of 1ql higher?  So what bonus does a rare forge impart as compared to a regular forge?  Thanks for pointing out the error, I have research to do.

 

3 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

the 10% bonus is to affinity timer, not to ql output.

I understand that completely.  I am referring to percentage of bonus bestowed relative to the plain container, not to the substance of the bonus.

 

7 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

this discussion is about whether or not rarity of the heat source should affect the outcome of the affinity, not balancing the timer against that.

Well aware of this as well.  To me, how the timer is balanced affects my view of the topic at hand.  Thus, I brought it up.

All things equal, I prefer it as it is. 

 

My concern is the relevance of heat sources less than fantastic should the change occur.

 

13 minutes ago, Alyeska said:

 

An extra affinity is something I can get behind, so receiving the affinity you receive with a regular cooker, and a bonus one for using a better oven.

Which does maintain a sense of discovery upon using the recently upgraded oven... so that's a plus...

 

I think it's completely overpowered relative to plain ovens though, but that's not relevant apparently.

So now we're not just discussing whether rarity of heat-source affects affinity, we're only concerned with the benefit of rarity.  You're suggesting a change in which the affinities remain the same (which was already the change you were advocating) BUT with a bonus affinity added to it on top :lol:.

 

But yeah, never saw the expectation that a change would bring absolutely no re-balancing coming from a mile away.

:rolleyes:

 

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Even if a rare+ oven doesn't change the affinity, rarity still matters more for an oven than it ever did before, since it affects the timer length. Rarity on an oven would still be more relevant than, for example, rarity on a forge or a smelter, so arguing that it would make rarity useless is kind of mistaken; it would still be more useful than it was before, and more useful than other rares that are actually in demand.

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1 minute ago, Reylaark said:

So what bonus does a rare forge impart as compared to a regular forge?

 

Uses fuel 10% slower per rarity level. Think it might heat things faster too.

Rare ore becomes a rare lump. Don't think the QL jumps.

Rare distillation seemed to boost product 1QL for that one 0.01 punch, so it got averaged quickly, but that's gone now.

 

An extra affinity from rare+ ovens does sound real nice, but

I) Sounds very powerful

II) Sounds like some very, very careful dev work - stuff like seeded random like this can be very temperamental

III) Doesn't actually solve the raised issues - things like sharing recipes to people who tasted your food and want what you made will still be dicey.

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For years I've played with only one affinity, so having a great many new options to explore does seem nice. However, having the rarity of the container affect the affinity does feel like it's punishing the player for aspiring to improve their tools.

 

I actually haven't voted, but after mulling it over and doing some research I would be inclined to vote 'no', as that would be the most beneficial to me over the long term.

 

Out of idle interest I tried the already known recipe for the meat meal. (I've lived on refresh and rares for many months, all my cooking tools are non-rare)

Using old ingredients from my 'under 40ql' bin, and no further processing: filet of cooked meat + potato + sassafras + walnut + paprika + cheese + wheat bread, in a 46ql pan with 52 HFC = 29ql meal with longbow affinity

Longbow is useful to me, but it only lasted a few minutes, therefore more of a tease than any practical value.

 

But now I know it's there, so would obviously like to improve it, but...

-If I use a rare pan to get the QL boost...it shuffles the affinity

-If I use a rare oven to extend the timer...it shuffles the affinity

 

Which limits what I can do to enhance that particular combination, and I'm not sure how much I realistically could enhance it within those limits of ingredient/pan QL and skill

So I would likely be better off to just wait until I have some better tools available, and then start trying recipes.

 

The way I see it:

If I spend hours testing recipes for affinities with non-rares, then I lose my incentive to upgrade my tools, as I'd have to test all of those recipe combinations again.

If I choose to wait until I have a rare set of tools, and then do my testing, I've still lost my incentive to try and further upgrade my tools to supremes, and I've no incentive to test anything now with non-rares as it's a waste of my limited playtime. (And if I'm not bothering to explore the new content, then it's been a waste of the dev's time and hard work)

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6 minutes ago, Kaldari said:

-If I use a rare pan to get the QL boost...it shuffles the affinity

 

I've tested this several times and can't replicate it. It doesn't seem to be the case. Otherwise, all good points.

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10 minutes ago, Stanlee said:

 

I've tested this several times and can't replicate it. It doesn't seem to be the case. Otherwise, all good points.

 

That is good to know, and interesting, since Retrograde specifically said it does, on page 2 of this thread

 

"Just toi clarify, with this system the rarity of the container also changes the affinity.

 

This means that using a rare frypan gives a different affinity vs using a common or supreme frypan."

 

Since you've tried it several times, then that would suggest his information has been led astray

 

 

 

Edited by Kaldari

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Well, that or I landed the same affinity 3 times in a row, rare/non-rare pan, by pure chance.

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17 minutes ago, Stanlee said:

Well, that or I landed the same affinity 3 times in a row, rare/non-rare pan, by pure chance.

 

Who knows, perhaps Wogic has been installed with a warped sense of humour

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