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MaurizioAM

Damage Reduction Revisited...

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There had been some talk about this many times in the past and also as of recent. I wanted to try and bring it back into the lime light as a way to possibly perk up not only PVP but also PVE as well. 

 

Sotg received what I would consider a needed nerf, along with it a great addition of a DR body str curve which was said would be tweaked in either direction if needed. The combo of these changes have been great for the most part and much tested in live scenario at this point and so there has been more input as well as charts/graphs (thanks to zeke and few others) all showing that perhaps the balance is not quite there yet. Perhaps its time for a revisit with possible changes which not only reflect pvp but also pve as well.

 

Many suggestions have been made some asking to eliminate DR or SOTG altogether but that would be removing some great content of the game that may only need a bit of more changes/tweaks that all could benefit from and add some more variation to the game. The best suggestion made which got the most amount of attention was the addition of DR given to all meditation paths as well as possibly an upward tweak of lower end accounts DR curve.

 

Without removing path of insanity from has always been known as the tank class what does everyone think about the addition of some DR across all meditation paths? Thoughts, comments, concerns?

 

What is the likelihood the wurm team takes another dive into making these changes within a short period of time and not 6 months from now?

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Sotg is the only useful benefit from path of insanity. Giving DR to all meditation paths would be just unfair.

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3 minutes ago, Clasin said:

Sotg is the only useful benefit from path of insanity. Giving DR to all meditation paths would be just unfair.

 

It's unfair that only 1 path has pure damage mitigating DR and so much of it, would rather see SOTG changed to something else useful than leave it the only pure DR med path.   There is a reason everyone is still SOTG on pvp servers after the nerf, and its not because we like the name insanity better than the rest =D.

Edited by Darklords

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3 minutes ago, Clasin said:

Sotg is the only useful benefit from path of insanity. Giving DR to all meditation paths would be just unfair.

This always being a concern would be nullified by the addition of an ability for path of insanity along with the 30% reduction. 

 

My suggestion for all other meditation paths is to max out at 20% leaving only 10% benefit for insanity and keeping it the true tank class. At 10% there is still significant difference but not so different to be game breaking on either end. 

 

The addition of an ability to insanity puts the path in line with other paths. The benefits received by all is each path now gets some DR along with their respective abilities while insanity remains the true tank class gaining an ability while retaining a slightly higher DR%. 

 

 

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honestly the first step towards balance should have been making it a ramping % bonus based on level maxing out at the current level
i don't know why this is hard to code
i don't understand why it wouldn't be done to provide a scaling boost instead of 0% extra mitigation straight to 30% mitigation at 70 med

this would make it so players could work towards the end result while not being alienated out of PvP because of poor mechanic planning and being nearly a requirement to have SotG
This should have been one of the first steps towards true balance and help out the newer players without them feeling useless until they do their daily 6 month grind

With the original suggestion though:
I believe 20% is too much, and 15% might be more reasonable.
Both should be incremental on path levels.

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So hate would have  damage bonus+DR +the immunity, power will have DR + sick stam + the immunity and insanity has 10% extra damage reduction? Instead of that make it so you can swap between paths with a weeks cooldown or so.  If others path should get 20% dr then insanity should get a full do over. 

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Just now, Wulfgarr said:

Instead of that make it so you can swap between paths with a weeks cooldown or so. 

agreed
if you do your grind you shouldn't have to do it over again if you want to swap paths

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16 minutes ago, Wulfgarr said:

So hate would have  damage bonus+DR +the immunity, power will have DR + sick stam + the immunity and insanity has 10% extra damage reduction? Instead of that make it so you can swap between paths with a weeks cooldown or so.  If others path should get 20% dr then insanity should get a full do over. 

 

You can dispel hate, it lasts 15 mins and has an 18 hour cooldown I am not to worried about it but it defiantly needs a re-balance to. Also spell immunity is only useful on boats, and your boat is as weak as the first person to die its also pretty useless because then they kite you in melee soon as your slower then them.

 

Edit:Almost forgot the best part about spell immunity, it spams the person casting it on you with a message telling them to not bother to cast on you that you would be immune anyways before the cast even finishes.

Edited by Darklords
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Soil, while yes balance should have started with a scaling or incremental gains that has no affect of the final outcome. Currently by proven graphs 30% DR only as Sotg it is a detrimental difference to the point it literally makes every other path useless more or less. Yes other paths have good abilities but in the long run SOTG currently still over powers all other paths hands down. 

 

Phropeteer with the help of in think it was Alex or maybe zeke showed the graph of how 15% DR would still be a bigger difference and still would not solve the issue continuing to make insanity or better yet SOTG the better path so 20% reduction is a necessary amount in order to keep the difference closer instead of drastically apart. 

 

Path of insanity though would have to gain an ability. My suggestion is use what we already have in game and give insanity at lol 11 the use of stone skin cast, it can be activated just like all other path abilities and used once in 18 hours. The consistent addition of 10% DR still makes the path the true tank class and an ability is added. Insanity also has fill which can come in handy but may require slight improvements as well. If there are other abilities that can be suggested as better addition to the path please comment.

 

Wulfgar, although I agree somewhat to your suggestion ultimately I'm fairly positive if you make it where changing paths easy then there will no longer be thought behind paths as you can change them every 2 weeks. What has kept people drawn to this game is the fact that it has some depth to it and removing it is not a wise idea when balance can easily be achieved . I would agree that once you reach the levels of meditation it should be easier to reach those same levels in other paths slightly faster but 2 weeks is a bit to quick. I could see half the time it takes to reach the paths initially ... If you already know how to stay in meditation for the path you are currently and level you are you should have the same if not better ability to reach the same levels in half the time in another path. 

 

With that said, we are talking about balance and making it easier to change paths does nothing at all for actual balance it's just another ability. The same goes for scaling increases of DR. These are only bandaids to the problem but can be better served as better additions to a balanced system.

Edited by MaurizioAM

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What if insanity had %75 dmg bonus and %40 dmg reduction bonus and faster attack speed while below %50 hp (goes away if you are above %50 again), more berserker, insane person-like?  %15dmg %8 reduction at %50 hp at lower levels and goes up

 

path of power %50 more spell dmg passive, %75 spell dmg received reduction passive. increments starting %10 %15. significantly less cooldown for offensive spells

 

path of hate %50 more damage dealt passive and %25 more damage received passive. increments starting %10 %5

 

path of knowledge %25 all skills like before but also %100 faster learning of weapon and shield skills. increments too %5, %20 (path of the lazy)

 

this is just an approach, could be very wrong. generally, wouldnt it be nice if each path gave you a certain role in the battle in pvp?

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MaurizioAM said:

Wulfgar, although I agree somewhat to your suggestion ultimately I'm fairly positive if you make it where changing paths easy then there will no longer be thought behind paths as you can change them every 2 weeks. What has kept people drawn to this game is the fact that it has some depth to it and removing it is not a wise idea when balance can easily be achieved . I would agree that once you reach the levels of meditation it should be easier to reach those same levels in other paths slightly faster but 2 weeks is a bit to quick. I could see half the time it takes to reach the paths initially ... If you already know how to stay in meditation for the path you are currently and level you are you should have the same if not better ability to reach the same levels in half the time in another path. 

 

With that said, we are talking about balance and making it easier to change paths does nothing at all for actual balance it's just another ability. The same goes for scaling increases of DR. These are only bandaids to the problem but can be better served as better additions to a balanced system.

 

 

Go give skyforge a shot. Fun game, for a week. It's greatest strength is a loose class system.

Its major weakness is no attachment to your decisions. Everythinf is temporary and interchangable.

It makes a good diversion for a hour or so every couple weeks between wurm sessions or binge gaming on ark or something.

 

Is that what you want wurm to be?

Maybe, as a compromise, on epic the 'classes' of wurm become less permanent. Would keep it's uniqueness, and allow for new tactics such as "bob is sotg and fo. Expect a naked and hard to kill beast." Suddenly bob is popmag scaling your walls and shitting lava on your rugs.

 

Be like bob, play epic for a faster pace of wurm. But the main cluster could remain more or less as it is in this regard.

 

Being said, i like the idea of boosted dr for each path. Would ++dr be enough to keep sotg good in that environment?

 

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49 minutes ago, Makarus said:

Being said, i like the idea of boosted dr for each path. Would ++dr be enough to keep sotg good in that environment?

 

 

Ad long as Insanity receives an ability and perhaps a tweak it made to something like fill I believe the answer would be yes SOTG would still be good but it would no longer be the ONLY path that needs to be played in a pvp situation. 

 

As for your Epic comment I do like that idea but as I don't primarily play on epic I would not be trying to advocate the change unless they wanted. I do think a 2 week (or just an overall shorter time) path switch ability on epic would be another draw for epic and could be a good thing.  It would def add some uniqueness to what epic already is about and has. 

 

@Simyacialthough your suggestion sounds like it could be interesting it might be more work then is actually needed. Also the suggestion about Hate would mean a player that is smeagin or Nathan or mag using a Addy weapon while having maxed out deed war bonus would literally 1 shot that HATE player. I do understand your suggestion could be tweaked in many ways but in truth each path already has something that is offered, they might not be perfect but the biggest difference for med paths is simply SOTG having static 30% DR which is hands down still the best vs any other ability other paths have.

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In tomorrows update we'll be taking an initial step of scaling SotG according to path level, starting at level 7 with 20% of the 30% DR (6% DR).

Each level will then add a further 6% up until the full 30% at level 11.

 

Hopefully this does lessen the "six month" requirement on PvP and reward newer players as they advance, we'll keep an eye out and continue to monitor what else can be addressed.

 

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coolio

wish it started at 4, but atleast its something.

Edited by Zekezor

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

In tomorrows update we'll be taking an initial step of scaling SotG according to path level, starting at level 7 with 20% of the 30% DR (6% DR).

Each level will then add a further 6% up until the full 30% at level 11.

 

Hopefully this does lessen the "six month" requirement on PvP and reward newer players as they advance, we'll keep an eye out and continue to monitor what else can be addressed.

 

A step in the right direction but why only starting to scale at lvl 7? Why not scale it from lvl 4? Being under 20% till u hit lvl 7 gives an early on accomplishment feeling while not breaking the game. 

 

Could we know why the decesion is to start it at lvl 7? Also what steps might be taken to make other paths also viable options?

 

Scaling is a great step in the right direction but it feels your holding back and it doesn't make any sense as to why.

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another thread where your (retros) post was quoted:

58 minutes ago, Madt said:

Kinda feel like that's a little low of a fraction for the lower levels. Why not 10% DR at say level 7 then 15%DR at level 9, then it doubles at level 11.

 

That feels a bit more forgiving without being overly generous.

 

But what they really need to do is add something as good as 30% DR to every other path's level 11 ability. Since in Wurm damage reduction will probably always trump other stuff on pvp servers, why not put the same damage reduction bonuses on all paths and then give each path its own extra unique ability that doesn't effect PVP in any major way. That way insanity path wouldn't be the only logicial choice on pvp servers and it would put the variety the meditation system was supposed to bring back into the game with players all on different paths, not just seeing Gone next to everyones name.

 

Edited by Zekezor

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Personally I'd like to see 3% per level from 4-10 and 9% at the final 11th level.

iow

4:   3%

5:   6%

6:   9%

7:  12%

8:  15%

9:  18%

10: 21%

11: 30%

 

rather than current

 

7:  6%

8:  12%

9:  18%

10: 24%

11: 30%

Edited by Zekezor
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3% per lvl looks really good.. Probably the most balancing and no where near game breaking at early levels.

 

All this scaling is nice but it still doesn't solve the root of the issues I wish the team would comment more on. 

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Because it's easier to give slowly than take away. We'll keep an eye on how this goes.

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Hrm the numbers seem a bit drastic imho; though, we'll see how it plays out I guess.

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16 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Because it's easier to give slowly than take away. We'll keep an eye on how this goes.

Although somewhat understandable in this situation where its been proven time and time again with live scenario feedback and even hitpoints calculation charts made by players like zeke it doesn't seem this is one of those moments where giving is a bad thing or would hurt anything. 

 

This is 1 subject the vast majority of players who take the time out to comment are all in agreence because of a few simple facts.. 1 waiting 7 months to 1 year is not fun and deters players from even wanting to play.. 2 Sotg is the only viable path in a sandbox game where there should be more viable options.. 3 skill gains I don't want to even comment on that one. 

 

Yes scaling is a great step but your wasting more time then is needed by holding back. Zeke's 3% per level leaves the low end of insanity at a non game breaking DR while giving players a sort of accomplishment starting at around a little over 1 month. 

 

Still this is only a bandaid till something is done that gives other paths some amount of DR. My suggestion remains to keep insanity the true tank class so that nothing else gets broken to the point of a new meta. The minute you make DR the same across the board is the min you created a new meta. I would go as far as saying even my suggestion of a 20% for all med paths at lvl 11 is bad and would probably make POP a new gotta be path. Instead perhaps every path should have a different maximum so that tweaking of other abilities to make the paths more attractive then another while sacrificing perhaps 5 or 10% more DR. This would add a trade off do I want DR or do I want crazy stam and some DR... Etc.

 

Please don't waste more time by waiting you will only continue to see more of the same posts repeating the same stuff that has been suggested years ago and we now are finally starting to see changes. Its not always better late then never!

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Adding DR across the board makes very little sense, especially when the focus is to make meditation that much less of a pain, if everyone gets 20%, then no one getting 20% achieves the same purpose without meditation being a "must have"

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I think you should reduce the time it takes to switch path ONCE you've achieved that path.

So a first time level 11 guy will take normal time; but if i switch from level 11 to a new path, I get prestige or something, allowing me to advance the paths much faster

It should take a month tops for my to switch back and fourth to get up to level 11 (if i've never achived level 12, it will kick in the normal timer after 11) and what path i want...That isn't game breaking and would allow much diversity in meditation; I want a break from pvp, I can go PoK, i fancy trying Love hands, maybe I want to go path of power see how i can run with that, i can do this and make PROPER use of meditation with a smaller gap..

This also allows lower players to grind up on path of hate then switch with just 1 month timer instead of 4 or w/e it is

Edited by Mclovin
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2 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Adding DR across the board makes very little sense, especially when the focus is to make meditation that much less of a pain, if everyone gets 20%, then no one getting 20% achieves the same purpose without meditation being a "must have"

Yes but removal of DR would be more game breaking then adding it across the board. 

 

I agree with you fully though that the principle is virtually the same and does not add flavor which is why in said even my suggestion of all paths getting 20% is no good.  But each path could have a max % determined by what else the path gives you. This way some abilities can be tweaked to make some look appealing while perhaps having slightly less DR while others having slightly on the higher side but less appleaing in the ability department. 

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