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Raybarg

What does Balanced mean?

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If there is something which becomes FOTM (Favor of the month, or in Wurm; FOTY Favor of the year(s).)

If this something is then subject to development changes in order to "Balance" it.

If this change then create or make something else FOTM which causes "FOTM fluctuation".

 

Some call it whack-a-mole game to "Balance" a game. Games which endured years of this whack-a-mole process end up having people complain about "everything becoming generic".

 

Then is this "Balancing" meaning generism in which everything slowly turns from "Different" towards "Same same but different"?

First there was diversity and FOTMs, then there was just looks of diversity and FOTMs harder to find or their flavor no longer compensatory to cost in changing yourself to steer in the pulling waters?

 

Example:

When designing very simple game it is easy to think of two variables; Power and Defence. Imagine you give all players choice how they distribute their pool of 5 numbers between these two with minimum of 1. Power is how hard you hit, Defence being how much hitpoints you have. 4/1 will oneshot anything but will die on just 1 point hit. Every choice wins over 4/1 whereas 4/1 wins every choice, now it depends who is hitting first (which for the sake of this example is evenly distributed). Players will quickly realize this is a numbergame where if you make your army 4/1 hitters and your army is 1 man bigger than of the enemys, you win. Thus the dawn of 4/1 FOTMism and addiction of numbers. Biggest blob is the one to win. So developers limit power to maximum of 3 making defence minimum of 2 in order to change this FOTMism. But what happened is that diversity is just in the looks with 1/4, 2/3, 3/2 options. Then there is the bastard child of 1/4 there, creating new FOTMism because 1/4's survive two rounds so development makes change that power must be either 2 or 3, only allowing 2/3 or 3/2 options. Leavign players wonder "what use is 2/3 option anyway?" leaving 3/2 the last FOTM before devs just decide to fix the game finally making everyone 2.5/2.5.

 

 

These things become more and more difficult to see when adding more variables, triggers, special abilities, cooldowns, ... all the flavors with what games come with. FOTMism becomes religion of few very smart being followed by larger group because of their symbiotic relationship. With exceptions also (my everlasting respect towards Rooks'n'Kings) where it is not just about numbers. The distillery of game mechanics, the abilities to think same way the developers think. Understanding the "numbers" to the point that "next FOTM" is identified, new mole is raised for developers to whack.

 

That nerf bat pounds away hitting here and there, we are all falling victims under it now and then. But we ask for "Balance". We are the ones who complain about "that FOTM I dont want/like" being "too OP" and "should be balanced". We are putting the devs in very tight gap between demanding balance while maintaining diversity. It is possible there is only choice existing; you choose to balance it or you choose to keep it unbalanced and maintain a ratio of choices where development changes simply fluctuate the FOTMs.

Edited by Raybarg
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The combat balance and balance of favor gain methods (or different resources used by different "classes" to do the same things) are very different however, don't generalise them into one entity.

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Balance means equal opportunities, not that everyone is carbon copy of each other.. at least it should mean that.

 

Also when we talk about balancing, then this is another battleground. Usually getting nice things take time in MMOs. So if someone gets something nice, then others have two options.. spend same amount of time to get equal results... or... go try to persuade the devs to remove the nice thing. In Wurm the second option is being done very successfully. And that leads everything being generic - everyone is part of same gray mass.

 

It all reminded me of a joke.

 

"There is a visitor in hell. Devil is taking him to a tour. The visitor sees many cauldrons, which have guards next to them.

He asks: "Whats that?"

Devil answers: "Those are souls of people, who are trapped in molten lava, the guards are guarding so noone escapes."

The visitor then asks: "But there is one cauldron, which has no guardian next to it."

Devil answers: "Those are the souls of MMO players. There is no need to guard them. If any one of them is about to escape, the others will pull him back down."

Edited by rixk
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12 minutes ago, rixk said:

Balance means equal opportunities, not that everyone is carbon copy of each other.. at least it should mean that.

 

that.

 

It also means thinking about things on a whole level, not just favor, but the work involved around it, how it will impact the players, the economy, will the new thing become the new meta and so on.

 

Balance is hard to reach, even more since you will annoy most of your player base by doing so, but still needed to prevent abuses.

 

I do wish the devs would think about the goals and time involved to reach them for the players. Equal opportunities are right, needing 20+ years to reach them on a MMo is insane (current case of the sorcery charges).

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2 hours ago, rixk said:

go try to persuade the devs to remove the nice thing

Wasn't this your behaviour about meditation and Nahjo?

 

Anyway, in general, talking about priests balance, not regarding their spell lists, and in case different priests stay with different favor gain methods:

 

          The effort spent to get the same amount of favor should be the same. I think, time is the best resource to use as an overall effort measure, because evening out time needed in different "branches" provides equal opportunities to all. Now, knowing the distribution of RNG for different skills involved in different ways of producing favor, you can adjust the ((average roll) x (number of rolls over certain time period) x (value of roll for given favor item)) to be the same, achieving balance. It's easiest to adjust the latter variable based on the average roll differences. Trying to play with all variables is whack-a-mole and will never give any result.

          Average roll (QL of the favor item) and speed of producing favor items should be taken on equal levels of all involved skills. Devs possess all this data (and not only them btw). Overall effort for raising skills in various "branches" to equal levels can differ a lot, serving a source of "utility differences". Going the road of evening it out will involve changing too many game aspecsts and leave only cosmetic differences, essentially leading to:

4 hours ago, Raybarg said:

devs just decide to fix the game finally making everyone 2.5/2.5

However, if the difference is too big (for instance, between preparing fields and levelling farming and raising everything needed for making yoyos), in can be lowered by adjusting skill difficulty.

 

          That's... pretty much it, i believe. There are other, more complex ways, and I might have missed something, but it doesn't require pulling random numbers out of your head, soothsaying, haruspication, etc. Now when you got it balanced, you can play with coefficient to favor/QL proportion for all "branches", a "simplicity/happiness" coefficient. Changing it will not change balance, but will directly and proportionally affect levels of tedium and players' happiness and market as well.

Edited by zigozag

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12 minutes ago, zigozag said:

Wasn't this your behaviour about meditation and Nahjo?

 

What about my behavior about meditation and Nahjo?

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yes balance should not mean to generalize all aspects. which wurm does, all priest have different combos orf spells etc

 

but favor gain should be the same effort for all, otherwise it would be unbalanced.

it was unbalanced when nahjo/libila had it so easy and now nahjo/libila is the worst ever. 

 

they took it from unbalanced to unbalanced. that is not a fix.. its just to get people to stfu about nahjo being overpowered

well its so underpowered now there will be an exodus to different faiths

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Fighting the cropsac, and opposing suggestions to make meditation easier (since you're top there)?

Edited by zigozag

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9 minutes ago, elroth said:

yes balance should not mean to generalize all aspects. which wurm does, all priest have different combos orf spells etc

 

but favor gain should be the same effort for all, otherwise it would be unbalanced.

it was unbalanced when nahjo/libila had it so easy and now nahjo/libila is the worst ever. 

 

they took it from unbalanced to unbalanced. that is not a fix.. its just to get people to stfu about nahjo being overpowered

well its so underpowered now there will be an exodus to different faiths

 

Thankfully they've listened to reason and increased the sacrificing value for both. Given the change, I'd say Nahjo and Libila are now slightly better than Vynora and Paweelr.

 

Sadly, the cost of materials is still double that of Fo, making Fo look far more attractive in comparison. I would hope they listen to my suggestion of having 1 crop be "chopped" twice, to create 2 chopped vegetables for 2 actions, putting it reasonably on par with Fo.

 

Of course, this means Yoyos is still the worst double favor item, and hopefully this means they'll address this imbalance. Hopefully they'll see reason and realize there is more to balancing than NERFING.

 

It's time Yoyos and Door Locks got reasonable no-decay storage.

 

Edited by Dairuka
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2 minutes ago, Dairuka said:

 

It's time Yoyos and Door Locks got reasonable no-decay storage.

 

 

Yes!

 

(although I am all in for the Yoyo's part... since for all these years I have been the bastard child who keeps making yoyo's despite all smart people around me throwing numbers how its the least efficient way... but then again my pure being in reality is based on productivity not efficiency but at the same time minimizing effort... it creates such a soup that once one gets comfortable without "efficiencythinking" then everything changes, in a funny explorative way. Oh, and due to having this yoyo-addiction for years, I have come to have pretty efficient ways of working, despite it naturally growing to be efficient trough the least effort and maximized productivity... this is when smart people raise their index fingers and open their mouths....)

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16 minutes ago, Dairuka said:

 

Thankfully they've listened to reason and increased the sacrificing value for both. Given the change, I'd say Nahjo and Libila are now slightly better than Vynora and Paweelr.

 

Sadly, the cost of materials is still double that of Fo, making Fo look far more attractive in comparison. I would hope they listen to my suggestion of having 1 crop be "chopped" twice, to create 2 chopped vegetables for 2 actions, putting it reasonably on par with Fo.

 

Of course, this means Yoyos is still the worst double favor item, and hopefully this means they'll address this imbalance. Hopefully they'll see reason and realize there is more to balancing than NERFING.

 

It's time Yoyos and Door Locks got reasonable no-decay storage.

 

what dod you mean? nahjo and libila effectively have no double favor sac item now, since alchemy is not feasible in bulk
chopped veggies is an extra skill and half the favor they got before, how is that an upgrade?

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the bug was that when sacrificing the double favor item of another god (like Libila) you did not get half of the double favor as calculated for the double favor god. It seemed like that should have been a simple fix with out nerfing anyone.

 

Nerfing will always cause problems , it is better to find a different solution

 

How will the Gods respond when we throw chopped veggies at them.

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Just now, Raybarg said:

 

Yes!

 

(although I am all in for the Yoyo's part... since for all these years I have been the bastard child who keeps making yoyo's despite all smart people around me throwing numbers how its the least efficient way... but then again my pure being in reality is based on productivity not efficiency but at the same time minimizing effort... it creates such a soup that once one gets comfortable without "efficiencythinking" then everything changes, in a funny explorative way. Oh, and due to having this yoyo-addiction for years, I have come to have pretty efficient ways of working, despite it naturally growing to be efficient trough the least effort and maximized productivity... this is when smart people raise their index fingers and open their mouths....)

 

Yoyo's really are the bastard child of the double-favor family. (Even after the Nahjo/Libila nerf given the new favor numbers offered on the WSA.)

 

Door locks only require one 10 difficulty action. The downside is the high material usage of Iron, which isn't abundant in 90ql+ form on the market. -- 0.6kg iron per door lock.

Cloth Squares only require 2 actions. The one determining the QL is only 5 difficulty. Including the upside of it using Cotton, which is abundant in 90ql+ form on the market. -- 0.3kg cloth per cloth square.

Yoyos require 3 actions. The one determining the QL is 15 difficulty resulting in the lowest random QL of the three. Yoyos require two components in Cotton and Logs. - 0.2kg log (Shafts take 0.2kg log to make!) and 0.2kg cloth per yoyo.

 

The material costs for Yoyos are significantly higher as a result, with a slightly lower average QL for your effort.

 

The only reason I've ever suggested that people ever bother to use Yoyo's is if the following conditions are met:

  • You have multiple alts capable of producing high QL shafts and cloth strings
  • You have access to, or are able to cut your own 90ql+ logs

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18 minutes ago, zigozag said:

Fighting the cropsac, and opposing suggestions to make meditation easier (since you're top there)?

Everyone has the exact same opportunity to get where I am in meditation aka equal opportunities. Some would be even higher than I am currently, if they had wanted to. Because, when I started meditating, there were people at very high meditating already.

 

And regarding cropsac.. Wouldn't call it fighting, I think I have only commented it once on forums(bit more in game). I was worried actually more about cropsac making the "traditional ways" of gaining favor obsolete, at least this is what came to my mind, when I read about giving cropsac to everyone else.

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1 minute ago, Dairuka said:

Yoyo's really are the bastard child of the double-favor family. (Even after the Nahjo/Libila nerf given the new favor numbers offered on the WSA.)

 

nahjo and libila's favor item is not feasible to create in bulk, especially if you live in the south of xana

woohoo high favor for a 100QL horn, i have yet to see a single unicorn on xana in the past 1,5 year

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10 minutes ago, elroth said:

what dod you mean? nahjo and libila effectively have no double favor sac item now, since alchemy is not feasible in bulk
chopped veggies is an extra skill and half the favor they got before, how is that an upgrade?

 

I made the same mistake. The WSA was actually edited without warning. Here are the numbers to explain my reasoning.

They've increased the sacrifice value from 5 favor, to 6.25 for Libila and Nahjo. It's still a nerf, but you'll see the numbers as to why it's still better than Yoyos.

 

Given the vague, somewhat unclear and seemingly rushed nature of the information put in the WSA, I'm not entirely certain they fully know what to do to keep Nahjo and Libila competitive with Fo (Who is likely to be the new favorite after this nerf.)

 

However, they're definitely getting closer. My suggestion would be to allow us to perform 2 chopping actions per 1 crop, to create 2 chopped vegetables as a result. Doing that alone would put Nahjo and Libila on par with Fo.

 

Edited by Dairuka

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2 minutes ago, elroth said:

nahjo and libila's favor item is not feasible to create in bulk, especially if you live in the south of xana

Doesn't matter where you live even, it's unfeasible anywhere.

 

Btw i think my longpost in this thread is pretty nice.

Edited by zigozag

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nahjo and libila can now chop alchemy vegetables for 6.25 favour, down from 10, so its stil la reduction but higher than the 5 it was going to be.

 

We can tweak upwards if we find it necessary, this all shows it's easier to tweak up than down.

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4 minutes ago, Dairuka said:

The only reason I've ever suggested that people ever bother to use Yoyo's is if the following conditions are met:

  • You have multiple alts capable of producing high QL shafts and cloth strings
  • You have access to, or are able to cut your own 90ql+ logs

 

You are so correct its almost like swimming in warm milk reading what spoils your mind has laid down.

 

You would even have suggested me bother with use of Yoyos (although I have evolved to have what you listed BECAUSE of making Yoyos, but what matters is NOW, not the past).

 

Although, in reality.. my Vyn does sometimes tap into the bulk stocks of cordages/locks generated by my other godly alts. Despite my Nacho being nerfed which will affect my speed at which I am strongwalling at Scar, this change is positive for my overall intermixed multi-god priest family. Who knows I might even end up having so big gang of choppers that if chopped veggies go into FSB I might consider making it my #1 universal sac items troughout all alts.

 

Now it seems we have derailed deep into this favor-discussion and away from my original post point about balance, but they do overlap enough to not feel itchy about it. ;)

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it says paaweerl gets more favour from meals. anyone know anything about then umbers for meal saccing?

 

 

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@Dairukai see it now, they ninja'd in those last updates. still not sure about the numbers though

 

@retrograde              how long does the free transfer of faith stand?

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Just now, elroth said:

@Dairukai see it now, they ninja'd in those last updates. still not sure about the numbers though

 

@retrograde              how long does the free transfer of faith stand?

few weeks at least, we'll be announcing it before they are removed.

 

2 minutes ago, elroth said:

it says paaweerl gets more favour from meals. anyone know anything about then umbers for meal saccing?

 

 

essentially ql/13 * complexity, and complexity ranges from 0.01 > 4.00. The more complex and difficult it is, the more favour it gives.

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7 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

essentially ql/13 * complexity, and complexity ranges from 0.01 > 4.00. The more complex and difficult it is, the more favour it gives.

interesting :)

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9 minutes ago, elroth said:

@Dairukai see it now, they ninja'd in those last updates. still not sure about the numbers though

 

@retrograde              how long does the free transfer of faith stand?

 

I won't actually know for sure until after the patch is made.

 

I've been getting conflicting reports from people on my Steam that there are even greater bonuses for Nahjo and Libila priests. At this point, my numbers are dead in the water until we see the final product first hand. I'll have a more accurate review up after I get my hands on it.

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5 hours ago, Raybarg said:

Some call it whack-a-mole game to "Balance" a game. Games which endured years of this whack-a-mole process end up having people complain about "everything becoming generic".

Not true if done properly.

 

Example:

Starcraft. (well starcraft 2 atm)

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