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Nahjo and Libila favour changes in 1.3

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1 minute ago, Ecrir said:

 

Yes, but it's not their favored sac item. I was referring to the balance of the favored sac items being completely messed up after the proposed change.

 

Yeah.

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Increasing favour value of butchered items is not going to have the effect they think it will. Lib and Nahjo priests aren't going to be running around butchering things to grind channeling. Devs & Retro need to understand the facts on the ground. You have pretty much just announced that Lib and Nahjo have no effective double favour item anymore, nothing amazing will change for other priests and you wonder why everyone is mad at your "awesome" change.

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If favour gain from the chopped veggies has to be boosted it will be, it's just better to start with less and tweak up, than it is to start with more and tweak down.

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Mouse aim to plant each seed and have to do ten per tile to get a proper result!

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2 hours ago, Evening said:

Sixth, I have a question: have you ever grinded channeling of a priest, any priest, even the "easy" Nahjo one, to 90, at least? You, on your own, saccing and casting for countless hours, to see how "easy" it is, crops or no crops?

 

 

I have a priest with 90+ ropemaking and trust me the worst part for me was spending the time to make the ropes, sort them and then have the tool imped again. Nahjo priests wouldn't need to spend ANY time to make ropes, yoyos or locks or to grind the related skills. The problem is that the nerf for Nahjo came waaay too late as there are tons of priests who got cheap channeling skill and everyone making a new priest will have to compete with them. I thought of developing my Nahjo priest's casting skills and keeping it as a more active character but now I think that I'll keep it as a mine fixer.

 

I only wonder if there are plans to make enchanting even more random now as that was the solution (?) which was chosen a few years ago to deal with "priest-skill inflation" (and now even top priests aren't safe from shattering items).

 

 

Edited by Anothernoob
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So let me get this straight when it comes to actions needed before saccing an item:

 

- Vynora needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, cut tree, create shaft, create yoyo - to create yoyo's;

- Fo needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, turn into piece of cloth - to create cloth pieces;

- Magranon needs multiple actions - mine ore, melt ore into lumps, create any metal item  - to create any metal item;

- Nacho needs only TWO - plant vegitables, harvest vegitables - actions to get the items needed for saccing.

 

Looking at Retro's post, what I see is that sacrificing items actually became more similar for ALL priests. True, it's a penalty to Nacho; but it also might help to rebalance the entire priesthood.

Right now I know there are only a few Fo and Vynora priests at Xanadu, while I got one of the last - perhaps even THE only - Magranon priestess, among to close to 100 Nacho priests. I doubt there is even a Nathan priest alive at Xanadu at all. I don't know how many Paawheelr and Smeagain priests we got atm, but it won't be that many.

I've also noticed there's a slight movement away from Nacho to Paawheelr and Smeagain even before this change was announced.

 

So, what I hope to see happening, is a balance among the priests, with less Nacho and more of the other gods, making it easier for the new players to choose a god of their liking. If this change creates that balance, it got my blessing. At least the number of actions required to get more favour would be similar to all priests. And isn't that more fair after all?

 

 

Thorin :)

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*shrug* Dalvea is unsubeed. She'll stay unsubbed. The only thing I am missing out on is the mining but with it only being 20 points difference between Audrel and Dalvea, 50% discount and a week of rock smashing, veggies need not apply. It's not all that hard to make mine supports and it uses up that crap iron that forms mountains of unused material as well as the junk logs. I'll miss genesis a little bit but it's not like it's used enough to exceed the premium in paid for casts. 

 

I'm not being sarcastic here. My priest is not worth the money as it is. Now it is worth even less. I can use the $$ elsewhere.

 

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Some numbers (RNG - Random Number Gen which tends to reduce average QL by a fair bit)

 

Faming - 0 RNG (Old Nahjo/Lib) Christmas comes early

 

Faming + Ropemaking - 1 RNG (Everyone) Everone suffers here

Farming + Spinning + Weaving - 2 RNGs (Fo) 2 RNG checks usually means you end up with pretty low end product

Farming + Chopping + Spinning + Carving + Crafting - 4 RNGs (Vyn) Yeh, these guys are screwed

Mining + Smelting + Crafting - 2 RNGs (Mag) The RNG check on mining and that on lockmaking usually leads to a lowish end product.  Its also the only location locked harvest due to veins being immovable)

 

Farming + Chopping - 1 RNG (New Everyone) Much less suffering, a good way to burn up bulk veggies found on abandoned deeds

Hunting + Butchering - 1 RNG (New Nahjo/Lib) Pretty harsh unless you raise animals, but with only 1 RNG check its going to deliver higher QL products compared to other methods.  By the look of things it should give more favor per item but not more than 3/4 of what a high QL lock would.

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Thorinoakshield said:

So let me get this straight when it comes to actions needed before saccing an item:

 

- Vynora needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, cut tree, create shaft, create yoyo - to create yoyo's;

- Fo needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, turn into piece of cloth - to create cloth pieces;

- Magranon needs multiple actions - mine ore, melt ore into lumps, create any metal item  - to create any metal item;

- Nacho needs only TWO - plant vegitables, harvest vegitables - actions to get the items needed for saccing.

 

Looking at Retro's post, what I see is that sacrificing items actually became more similar for ALL priests. True, it's a penalty to Nacho; but it also might help to rebalance the entire priesthood.

Right now I know there are only a few Fo and Vynora priests at Xanadu, while I got one of the last - perhaps even THE only - Magranon priestess, among to close to 100 Nacho priests. I doubt there is even a Nathan priest alive at Xanadu at all. I don't know how many Paawheelr and Smeagain priests we got atm, but it won't be that many.

I've also noticed there's a slight movement away from Nacho to Paawheelr and Smeagain even before this change was announced.

 

So, what I hope to see happening, is a balance among the priests, with less Nacho and more of the other gods, making it easier for the new players to choose a god of their liking. If this change creates that balance, it got my blessing. At least the number of actions required to get more favour would be similar to all priests. And isn't that more fair after all?

 

 

Thorin :)

 

what you mentioned is a good view of the 'before' state. So here's the 'after' state for your comparison:

 

- Vynora needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, cut tree, create shaft, create yoyo - to create yoyo's;

- Fo needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, turn into piece of cloth - to create cloth pieces;

- Magranon needs multiple actions - mine ore, melt ore into lumps, create any metal item  - to create any metal item;

- Nacho needs one action, butcher. But before that can be done you must first spend time to find creatures to kill and butcher. Depending on where you live (rip Xanadu, islands, south Xanadu, mountain tops, Xanadu) you could make dozens, if not hundreds, of Mag or Fo items in the same amount of time it takes you to get one item.

 

The cut vegetables is a good move, the favored sac item is where the ball is currently being dropped. Vyn has been in a bad spot for ages, Nacho and Lib are joining her now. In essence Fo and Mag will be OP after this unless this is addressed. So since they are doing something about the sac items I'd like to see them balance the entire thing properly for a change instead of just putting more gods in a bad spot. We're just going from one extreme to the other now.

Edited by Ecrir

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12 minutes ago, Thorinoakshield said:

So let me get this straight when it comes to actions needed before saccing an item:

 

- Vynora needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, cut tree, create shaft, create yoyo - to create yoyo's;

- Fo needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, turn into piece of cloth - to create cloth pieces;

- Magranon needs multiple actions - mine ore, melt ore into lumps, create any metal item  - to create any metal item;

- Nacho needs only TWO - plant vegitables, harvest vegitables - actions to get the items needed for saccing.

 

Looking at Retro's post, what I see is that sacrificing items actually became more similar for ALL priests. True, it's a penalty to Nacho; but it also might help to rebalance the entire priesthood.

Right now I know there are only a few Fo and Vynora priests at Xanadu, while I got one of the last - perhaps even THE only - Magranon priestess, among to close to 100 Nacho priests. I doubt there is even a Nathan priest alive at Xanadu at all. I don't know how many Paawheelr and Smeagain priests we got atm, but it won't be that many.

I've also noticed there's a slight movement away from Nacho to Paawheelr and Smeagain even before this change was announced.

 

So, what I hope to see happening, is a balance among the priests, with less Nacho and more of the other gods, making it easier for the new players to choose a god of their liking. If this change creates that balance, it got my blessing. At least the number of actions required to get more favour would be similar to all priests. And isn't that more fair after all?

 

 

Thorin :)

 

i dont know what you have been smoking my friend, but i know at least 15 vynora priests of which 3 in my deed. i know 7 FO and 3 magnaron and i clearly dont know everyone on xana..
 

i agree that nahjo was OP, but we asked the devs for months if it was a mistake and they stayed quiet, so then people switched and now they change it.. thats one. THEN they didnt balance it at all. they made nahjo and libilala worse then all the others because their double favor sac material is notfeasible to get in bulk amounts.. 

this doesnt balance it . it just kills of nahjo and maybe liblalala

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15 minutes ago, Thorinoakshield said:

So, what I hope to see happening, is a balance among the priests, with less Nacho and more of the other gods, making it easier for the new players to choose a god of their liking. If this change creates that balance, it got my blessing. At least the number of actions required to get more favour would be similar to all priests. And isn't that more fair after all?

 

You are totally right that balance was needed, well, for a long, long time, about 2 years overdue. Sadly this change will not provide that balance, however. The double-favour item balance before the change is as bad as after the change (with Nahjo having no practical double-favour item at all) and the spellist is still a product of throwing dice.

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Copying here, since half of it was an answer to people from this thread:

 

1 hour ago, geode said:

Wrong. I wanted a balance change

However I was talking about the specific change involving chopped vegetables.

 

Anyway...

1 hour ago, geode said:

It's a thankless job and at least your attempting to do it.

my biggest issue with this is i don't see any job, any work being done. This is a half-assed attempt at best, made up last night in despair of trying to tie up as many game aspects as possible to the cooking update (which might otherwise receive too little attention considering the time spent on it), thrown in our faces 2 days before the patch, leaving literally no time to prepare to it in any way, without any real thought and design behind it.

 

Now to those counting RNG checks:

          You're only half-right. Don't forget the difficulty difference for different actions. Also, specifically about Nahjo channeling grind. It is not cheap. I know that the oldest 90+ channeling priests might have had torn their hair seeing how much lower investments are needed on Nahjo, but they're not low anyway. Channeling with raw veggies' sacrificing is not quick and easy. It is still the most expensive skill in the game and is still very random in its results. Veggies do not appear magically as well. Farms need to be built and maintained. Even if you only sow and harvest, a big enough to feed the grind farm will take your whole evening or your whole day away. You will not have freedom to choose, to avoid it, to take a break when you wish. Build a big farm and your gaming is now scheduled. You will have to log in on  certain day  no matter what and spend hours harvesting and resowing. Unless you're buying veggies, of course.

         Another thing is they don't magically become 90ql. 90 farming takes months and a lot of dedication. Should you not expect consistant satisfying gameplay after months of hard work instead of enjoying the game? I don't think so.

 

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And another nail in the coffin for Libila. Doesnt matter guys, she was useless anyways nowadays after all these valrei nonsense.

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1 hour ago, Ecrir said:

 

what you mentioned is a good view of the 'before' state. So here's the 'after' state for your comparison:

 

- Vynora needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, cut tree, create shaft, create yoyo - to create yoyo's;

- Fo needs multiple actions - plant cotton, harvest cotton, turn into string of cloth, turn into piece of cloth - to create cloth pieces;

- Magranon needs multiple actions - mine ore, melt ore into lumps, create any metal item  - to create any metal item;

- Nacho needs one action, butcher. But before that can be done you must first spend time to find creatures to kill and butcher. Depending on where you live (rip Xanadu, islands, south Xanadu, mountain tops, Xanadu) you could make dozens, if not hundreds, of Mag or Fo items in the same amount of time it takes you to get one item.

 

The cut vegetables is a good move, the favored sac item is where the ball is currently being dropped. Vyn has been in a bad spot for ages, Nacho and Lib are joining her now. In essence Fo and Mag will be OP after this unless this is addressed. So since they are doing something about the sac items I'd like to see them balance the entire thing properly for a change instead of just putting more gods in a bad spot. We're just going from one extreme to the other now.

 

Could you guys remake these lists also taking into consideration the storage of the crafted sac items?

 

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Might just be me but why does everyone have to be in a bad spot.  Can't we have some good spots?  Yes I'm a vyn priest that does ropemaking.  Jealous as hell of sac'ing crops but I did not want to see it removed.

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This is a good change and was a long time coming; Nahjo's favor sacrificing was intensely overpowered and needed to be put in line with other gods. Now it has been.

 

That said, there's a reason this mattered so much in the first place; Wurm relies, in my opinion, way too much on sacrificing of large quantities of bulk goods just to get enough favor to cast a few spells. Whether spell favor costs are changed, or natural favor regeneration is tweaked, or favor from sacrificed items overall is tweaked, or something else is changed, this entire system definitely deserves a second look.


The chopped vegetables thing seems like a really weird bandaid on this problem, adding an extremely arbitrary thing to give all priests semi-easy favor, but it would be far better if the system were re-examined from the ground up.

Edited by Ostentatio
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Tbh, I think the change is fine, but I don't see the need the to categorize favor based upon potency.

 

If the goal was to remove corn etc, just make their favor much lower, and leave all butchered products at higher favor.

 

It's hard enough to have to collect butchered things for favor, let alone collecting essentially only teeth and horns because they're better for saccing. I don't see why a tooth would be better than a tail anyway.

 

Just my thoughts.... :)

Edited by Xallo

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Cordage difficulty will be reduced from 60 to 40, making it much easier and raising the average ql of rope.


Omg, thanks.

Anyway, Nahjo needed rework, and this came seriously too late, at the point that half players have a nahjo priest account.

This patch, though, almost looked like punishment.

And it was overnight, and you din't really take any input, Evening is right on her op.
That's not the way to do it, and i say this as someone with a vyn priest and 75 ropemaking.

You must also consider that nahjo never had a broken spell list, it's barely average, and it was mostly shining because of his OP way of gaining favor.

So i don't think that it must be "well balanced" with other priests, it should really have it easier on favor, because it's what Nahjo was about from the beginning, so it should retain this advantage, maybe a little less broken and unbalanced than how it was yesterday.

But the hunting/healing cover thing is just wrong, he basically doesn't have a favorite item anymore, like vyn priests that go into ropemaking.

At least i would say to tweak the chopped vegetable for slightly higher favor rate and make them Nahjo's favorite.

Or at least make HC potency not a factor.


Edit:

Also you must consider that many players that only had a nahjo priest, never even tought about raising a skill to produce favor, maybe they just raised farming, or maybe not even that, as they could just buy bulk veggies and sacrifice them.
Almost none of them will have high NS to make covers, or high Ropemaking to make ropes, so you're basically erasing their possibility to even use the priest and making them start over.
I strongly suggest to at least make "chopping vegetables" at a stupidly low difficulty, so that they will still be able to do something after this things gets changed.

 

Edited by Davih

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''Edit:

After considerable feedback we will also be adding a few things:

A one time faith transfer from Nahjo will be available after the update

Cordage difficulty will be reduced from 60 to 40, making it much easier and raising the average ql of rope.''

 

You know.. i'm a steel maker,i could craft some balls for you guys..so after you make stupid changes and comunity goes hard on you.. atleast you will have the balls to take it like men and not try to make it better.

Also think!!! Before comming and post it for us.

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So whats Lib's double favor item now? Corpses again like years ago? (we all know this was horrible and useless)

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14 minutes ago, Jonydowy said:

''Edit:

After considerable feedback we will also be adding a few things:

A one time faith transfer from Nahjo will be available after the update

Cordage difficulty will be reduced from 60 to 40, making it much easier and raising the average ql of rope.''

 

You know.. i'm a steel maker,i could craft some balls for you guys..so after you make stupid changes and comunity goes hard on you.. atleast you will have the balls to take it like men and not try to make it better.

Also think!!! Before comming and post it for us.

 

i dont think its an accident. politicians do it too

you yell something like prices are going up 20%, then everyone is mad. you then pretend to try and help the situation, renegotiate and then say, we did it prices are only going up with 10%. everyone is now sortof content with it feeling they made a difference even though the 10% was their intention from the get go

 

not sure what the word for it is. but i kinda feel that that is what happened here.

 

but i got my free faith change so F nahjo, since favor was all it had to offer.

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2 minutes ago, elroth said:

 

i dont think its an accident. politicians do it too

you yell something like prices are going up 20%, then everyone is mad. you then pretend to try and help the situation, renegotiate and then say, we did it prices are only going up with 10%. everyone is now sortof content with it feeling they made a difference even though the 10% was their intention from the get go

 

not sure what the word for it is. but i kinda feel that that is what happened here.

 

but i got my free faith change so F nahjo, since favor was all it had to offer.

 

Nahjo was a very big help for tile collapse..i'm not in to priests at all,but i did made a nahjo just for that one reason..and now the reason its gone!!

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3 minutes ago, Jonydowy said:

 

Nahjo was a very big help for tile collapse..i'm not in to priests at all,but i did made a nahjo just for that one reason..and now the reason its gone!!

 

magnaron here you come!

doorlocks at double favor and a boost in fighing, and of course strongwall

you can keep the statue :)

Edited by elroth

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I'm not entirely sure how to process the sudden development. I'm actually a little bit in shock.

 

I've been clamoring for a while about the overpowered nature of cropsaccing. I would've been more than happy to endure one, two or even three actions and a need to grind new skill lines to get the same amount of favor I receive now from crops. To offset this new proposed change, I would effectively have to purchase crops at half the price I do now to continue functioning in the same capacity I do now.

 

I find myself caught in the middle of some very large projects that require an obscene amount of dirt, predominantly reliant on the capacity my Nahjo priest performed on. Even with the changes, I could continue my shop's current business model to make money at the rate I have been with my enchantment services, but, that's not what I play Wurm for. Most of the favor didn't even go towards major enchantments, instead the majority of the favor went towards the creation of Dirt for the sake of my projects. I suppose I could probably convert to Fo to make use of Cloth Squares, but it would require drastic changes that I'm not entirely certain I'm interested in making, including the necessity of rearing up yet another alt to serve as a Vynora battery.

 

I'm going to do my best to remain patient to see the outcome of this proposed change, but I'm not going to lie when I say, this scares me deeply and might very well be a deal breaker for me. This potential overnerfing effects me so deeply, that for the first time ever, since I've started playing Wurm, I'm actually starting to question whether or not I want to continue these projects... or this game. These are not thoughts, or decisions I take lightly.

 

Edited by Dairuka
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