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Fatigue system needs to be looked at

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2 minutes ago, Nadroj said:

 

Benefits? 

How does anyone in 11 pages of this thread still think there are benefits to fatigue. It doesn't stop macroers and it does screw with legit players.

 

Well, in fairness, a lot of those pages consist of people ridiculously complaining others shouldn't care about their health as if anyone ever actually did.  We may have managed to get past that one though.  Fingers crossed. 

 

I pointed out many pages ago, in response to Greyfox I think, that if ThingOne plays the same amount of time as ThingTwo, but only ThingOne has a fatigue problem... time itself is irrelevant.  Think that bit of logic gained any traction?  Nope.  Nada, zip. ADD:  Thank you Greyfox!  Progress!

 

11 pages, I'm inclined to think the devs... provided we don't dismiss their thoughts out of hand, if you'll indulge... I'm inclined to think they must still see some benefits, and I'm also inclined to give their thoughts a fair bit of weight.  No, I'm not a newb.

 

Yeah.  11 pages.  Not one of y'all has been willing to consider you own play-style in your issues with fatigue.  I'm not denigrating anyone's play-style, I've just suggested that may be where the convo should lie.  I have my reasons, all to your benefit.

 

Yet here we still are, after 11 pages, those of us who know how to play the game without screwing ourselves over on a daily basis :P trying to help y'all out.  You'd think we'd just given up on you guys by now.

 

@Greyfox!  The guy who ridicules my own play-style as inefficient even though I'm not the one with a problem.:lol:  I am happy to see you finally acknowledging this is about the way you play the game, and not the amount of time you play the game.  I don't think you should be punished for the way you play the game either, which is why I've wanted to push the conversation in that direction... 11 pages, whew.  Nice.  Maybe this conversation will eventually head in a tenable direction after all.

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18 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

Yet here we still are, after 11 pages, those of us who know how to play the game without screwing ourselves over on a daily basis :P trying to help y'all out.  You'd think we'd just given up on you guys by now.


Please give up.  You're not helpful.  
You play your way and that's great.   That's your play style, that's the way you enjoy playing Wurm. and that play style works for you.  Continue to play that way as long as it brings you enjoyment.    If a game breaking mechanic stops you from playing the way you enjoy playing, I'll be happy to support you in asking for it to be fixed.    Until then,  slow down for a sec and consider not everyone wants to, or even enjoys, playing Wurm the way you do.  The Fatigue wall interrupts the play style some people enjoy and should be fixed because it stops people playing the way they enjoy playing. 
And consider sometimes peoples play styles change.   I spent the better part of my first three years deed building and terraforming, only grinding a skill when I needed to cross a benchmark.   It's what I enjoyed doing.   Never even came close to the fatigue wall doing that.   But two main deeds and about 10 side deeds later, the deed building and terraforming got boring and skilling became something I wanted to focus on.    Can't though because of the Fatigue wall.

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Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words.
I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say.

Spoiler

We have zero staff replies, with a statement about their view on the subject, other than a few personal PoVs from mods or gms, we have no dev input on this. Leaving us rope to hang ourselves around a few times and keep going...(for our entertainment)

 

Might be tricky subject on their end, idk if Rolf intended the extra complexity that fatigue implements and adds to the game.
I just explained around 10+ times what they are, and how that's a good thing to have around.

Obviously I do not mind people grinding hardcore.. but I question their human fatigue when they are able to burn though 12hours and keep going.

It's not 12hours of playing, but grinding work actions; people keep mumbling how they are prevented from playing, but that is not the case, you're being slowed down or limited only when it comes to bringing changes to the world. It is not realistic to play that much in long term.. you should get tired at some point, which doesn't seem to ever happen, only thing pausing your advancement for now is the fatigue.
 

Rey's idea adds exactly what I thought the 2nd time... it doesn't just expand the pool(12+6h) but daily regeneration, adding flat 6hours on top of w/e the player have left(read just the paragraph with red text)

Spoiler
On 5/22/2017 at 4:27 AM, Reylaark said:

 

Keep in mind, I am not a dev.  I don't know any devs, in or out of game.  The idea I put forth isn't really meant to "keep people loyal."  I have nothing to gain in promoting anyone's loyalty.

 

There is no admission of anyone not getting the time they pay for, as everyone is very much getting the time they pay for.  All of us get the same amount of time.  How we use it is ultimately the question.

 

However, since folks want to focus on time, I thought about adding fatigue time then.

 

The extra hour added each month in what I was describing would be per day.  Color added for emphasis.  So we'd get 1 extra hour every month we're consecutively premiumed added to our existing fatigue time.  So when I say at 9 months consecutive premium it's 18 hours, I mean it's 18 hours per day.  (the original 12, +6hoursDaily@9monthsConsecutivePremium)  Another month consecutive?  19 hours per day.  Another month consecutive? 20 hours.  etc. --> ∞.

Not sure we should go above 24hours/day though as I don't know what that would do to the universe.

 

People who grind that hard are already premiumed, are they not? 

 

Getting rewards for going premium, and staying premium, is the whole point of premium, isn't it?

 

So, what I'm suggesting would pretty much give people having a problem the solution they're asking for, as a reward for something they're already doing.  How in the world can that possibly be a bad thing? :lol: 

 

There are benefits to growing the fatigue cap over time.  I wasn't so much thinking carrot, I really do think fatigue-ridden players are already loyal.  They don't need a carrot.

If the fatigue cap does serve as a deterrent to macroers, not saying it does, but IF it does... they wouldn't have the longevity to grow fatigue tolerance over time the same way speed-skillers inherently do.  My thinking is if they can't get the immediate gratification of using macros in the first three months, they won't bother sticking around.  Could be wrong.  Not a macroer so can only imagine how they think... if they think.

 

 

@AriumYup, good bit of investigative work.  I think that it wouldn't be the first time we realize something didn't work the way we thought it did, so I'm not sure I'd want to claim it is broken right off the bat.  If nothing else it doesn't seem very polite ^_^

I do think that when the devs get a chance to look at it more closely, if they consider that broken, they'll let us know and fix it.  It's not a personal crusade for them, it's just code.  They'll get there.

it does nothing else but doubling fatigue regeneration every day with that +6hours in the end, 

If you sleep for 9hours = that's 3hours regenerated;
3+6reyhours = 9hours

by the time you use that 9 hours you get 3 more hours regenerated

and by the time you play that 3 extra hours, you get 1 more hour..

making it go up to 13hours fatigue to be used every day.

At this point why bother doing anything and not kill fatigue because it's pointless using this system at all

 

Edited by Finnn

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8 hours ago, Greyfox said:


Please give up.  You're not helpful.  
yadda yadda

 

Lighten up, Francis.  You keep shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Yes, I had a facetious tone in what you quoted.  How dare I speak to your holiness that way! :rolleyes: 

 

Never said anyone should play my way, that's just ridiculous.  I've actually said the exact opposite :lol:

 

Anyway, when (if) you cool off from my insolence, perhaps you'll come to understand my desire to help people get the heck away from untenable and ridiculous arguments in favor of one simple argument that would probably work.

 

You see, Wurmians are fair-minded folks.  Not some of the upper echelons that think they're gods, I know, but most people are fair.  If the conversation gets to promoting one play-style over another, then people will likely reach the conclusion that just isn't fair, and you can get the help you're looking for.

 

It's like pulling teeth though, and getting slapped around by people like you in the process.  Lovely.

 

3 hours ago, Finnn said:
Spoiler

 

We have zero staff replies, with a statement about their view on the subject, other than a few personal PoVs from mods or gms, we have no dev input on this. Leaving us rope to hang ourselves around a few times and keep going...(for our entertainment)

 

Might be tricky subject on their end, idk if Rolf intended the extra complexity that fatigue implements and adds to the game.
I just explained around 10+ times what they are, and how that's a good thing to have around.

Obviously I do not mind people grinding hardcore.. but I question their human fatigue when they are able to burn though 12hours and keep going.

It's not 12hours of playing, but grinding work actions; people keep mumbling how they are prevented from playing, but that is not the case, you're being slowed down or limited only when it comes to bringing changes to the world. It is not realistic to play that much in long term.. you should get tired at some point, which doesn't seem to ever happen, only thing pausing your advancement for now is the fatigue.
 

Rey's idea adds exactly what I thought the 2nd time... it doesn't just expand the pool(12+6h) but daily regeneration, adding flat 6hours on top of w/e the player have left(read just the paragraph with red text)

  Reveal hidden contents

it does nothing else but doubling fatigue regeneration every day with that +6hours in the end, 

If you sleep for 9hours = that's 3hours regenerated;
3+6reyhours = 9hours

by the time you use that 9 hours you get 3 more hours regenerated

and by the time you play that 3 extra hours, you get 1 more hour..

making it go up to 13hours fatigue to be used every day.

 

At this point why bother doing anything and not kill fatigue because it's pointless using this system at all

 

Sorry, but false on staff replies, here's just 2:

 

On 4/29/2017 at 11:30 PM, Retrograde said:
Spoiler

 

Bugs and intended mechanics are vastly different, I understand the desire to see this mechanic changed but comparing the two is apples and oranges.

 

Obviously the fatigue system is frustrating for those who hit it, but in its inception and integration it was an intended mechanic. There are plenty of mechanics that could do with a review and if necessary, improving. This is just another one of those systems.

 

 

 

On 5/15/2017 at 3:32 AM, Retrograde said:
Spoiler

This isnt broken, for all intent and purpose it works as intended, the discussion here isn't that it is a broken mechanic, it's that it does not mesh well with your playstyle and could be improved.

 

 

 

Also, dude... why do you keep thinking it's "+6 hours in the end?" :lol:  There is no end.  What I was suggesting would literally kill fatigue for trusted players in return for something they're already doing.

 

You're right though.  That apparently isn't good enough and I'm telling people how to play :rolleyes::lol:  Bah... whatcha gonna do.

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11 hours ago, Pingpong said:

Some of the stories I've been told by well connected people have me doubting if the /fatigue system does more then catch the stupid macroers. You used to be able to answer a question if a gm thought you were botting, that you can't do something like that when you run out of /fatigue from a week of power imping is boggling to me.

those things still exist, well, answering questions is just one of the things that can happen.

 

6 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

Also, dude... why do you keep thinking it's "+6 hours in the end?" :lol:  There is no end.  What I was suggesting would literally kill fatigue for trusted players in return for something they're already doing.

 

did i understand your suggestion wrong?

i understood it as increasing the fatigue cap but leaving the timer unchanged which just results in a bigger pool but not changing anything about the recharge rate.

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2 hours ago, Arium said:

did i understand your suggestion wrong?

i understood it as increasing the fatigue cap but leaving the timer unchanged which just results in a bigger pool but not changing anything about the recharge rate.

True.  Similar to the issue you found in the code affecting the recharge rate, but not the overall pool.

 

You are right though, if there is a leak in the recharge rate, that needs to be addressed so that over time, more water is going into the bucket than leaking out.  Otherwise this doesn't help, I think.  The math would need to be looked at more closely if deemed worthwhile.

 

Increasing the pool is an idea backed by the very people bringing up this problem.  Over enough time, people would have such large pools of daily fatigue time, there wouldn't be enough hours in a day to run out.  Particularly since we're talking about people who stick with Wurm a very, very long time. 

 

Obviously we can trust people like Greyfox, Jake, Naj, You, etc. Folks like you are known entities by virtue of being around so long.  Making it so you never have to contend with a fatigue wall in the first place shouldn't be much of a risk.  In a way, we'd be fading out fatigue over time as players become known, trusted entities... I think?

 

It's the new, unknown players, and perhaps alts that would need to have the brakes on.  Alts will get push-back, naturally.  Not saying that has to be the case, but that would be an outcome.

 

Also not meant to be a complete, encapsulated suggestion.  If addressing what you found doesn't bring recharge up to acceptable levels, surely that can be addressed as well. 

 

ps.  One other thing what I'm suggesting doesn't address is people sharing accounts and running them 24/7.  Don't know if that's even a thing, or considered a problem, just saying that empirically it's not a consideration accounted for... if it ever even needed to be.

 

EDIT::  pps... another thing that might be a negative, or positive, depending on who's looking at it:

Accrued fatigue time might become a selling point for accounts.  No opinion on that, just pointing it out as something to consider.

Edited by Reylaark
accrued fatigue time & acct. sales

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Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words.
I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say.

Spoiler

Rey.. I'm unsure now.. if you understand anything about fatigue after your last 2 posts.. your idea lets players to recover 11-12hours of fatigue every night,

Which basically.. turns the whole system pointless to have.

By the time you use 12hours... you'd be able to draw 2-3hours more... and than start over on the next day.. maybe sleep 1-2 hours every day.. just to not go insane with all that spamming of imp/repair/continue actions or w/e somebody have to do so much.

 

--edit

I missed sharing 1 other thought that was something like rey's idea but for less than half of what he proposed, either way.. foundation of that problem is mentioned there.. I thought somebody's going to see it, but we moved on..

 

Without dev's confirmation about fatigue regeneration's code.. we can't be sure if there's anything wrong.

 

Edited by Finnn

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1 hour ago, Finnn said:

Rey.. I'm unsure now.. if you understand anything about fatigue after your last 2 posts.. your idea lets players to recover 11-12hours of fatigue every night,

which basically.. turns the whole system pointless to have.

By the time you use 12hours... you'd be able to draw 2-3hours more... and than start over on the next day.. maybe sleep 1-2 hours every day.. just to not go insane with all that spamming of imp/repair/continue actions or w/e somebody have to do so much.

Okay, certainly didn't mean to troll.  Not entirely sure how calling you caring and conscientious is trolling... but sure, why not.

 

Sorry you are unsure of how what I'm suggesting works.  What I'm suggesting obviously doesn't work as you think it does, since nothing I said involves fatigue recovery time.

 

Fatigue recovery time is clearly a related issue, but I consider that separate and in limbo until we have more information regarding what Arium found in the code.

 

Maintaining the effects of fatigue for newer players while removing fatigue for more established players is also apparently appeasing to neither side of the issue.  Even when I expressly suggest retroactive implementation so that the relief would be immediate. 

 

Fair enough.  Was worth a shot.

 

All or nothing doesn't sound like a promising prospect to me when it leads to an impasse.

 

Fallacious arguments not addressing the underlying root of the issue certainly seem like a waste of time, and we've had a lot of those.

 

I would have thought my suggestion would be more palatable to people like Greyfox than having their stamina cut in half as he suggested, but apparently not.

 

Go figure.

 

Edited by Reylaark
oh well.

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Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words.
I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say.

Spoiler
On 5/22/2017 at 6:48 PM, Reylaark said:
Spoiler

I think you're likely the exception to my rule that nobody cares about these people's health :)  Good on you for being such a caring, conscientious person.  I have no doubt at all there are people out there who actually want your concern and could actually benefit from it.  It isn't fair to those people for you to chase after others who really don't want your concern though, is it?

I'm also sure the people close to you, who interact with you in real life, benefit from and appreciate your nurturing nature.

 

One of the reasons I didn't go into psychology, even though a strangely large number of people have suggested I should, is because I don't think I could ever just "shut it off" and let go of the ones that don't want my help.  Unfortunately, that's how it works though.

 

If you are concerned about the health of anyone here, that's really very kind of you.  However, there does come a point you have to let it go, and hope that if they really do need help, they'll seek it out.

 

You're turning into forum troll:rolleyes:

 

 

You're also skipping other values of the sysem i've mentioned a few times.. none of which I could back as we know almost nothing about he actual reason for the system, economy, etc.

 

And no.. I personally cant care less about somebody's playstyle, it's their own time and will to do as they please with it - it's their actions which reflect on everybody else that I was pointing.

 

Edited by Finnn

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59 minutes ago, Finnn said:

You're turning into forum troll:rolleyes:

Ok, fixed it for you.

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On 5/19/2017 at 5:08 PM, Greyfox said:

Okay, caffeine fueled idea, so fair warning.

Instead of preventing doing actions when you are out of fatigue, your stam regen is cut in half.    This way, legit players can keep playing(at a slower pace) and macros will be running at min stam getting almost no skill gains and really long action times so they will at least be slowed down.  

It's not the fix I want, but since I doubt the staff will ever get rid of this outdated(ANd probably useless) macro system I would accept slower stam regen when out of fatigue, at least I could keep playing.

Still, in my opinion, it would just be easier to get rid of Fatigue, or go to the line of code where max fatigue is set at 12 hours and just change that to 99 if removing fatigue is to hard/time consuming.   99hrs of fatigue would be more then enough :)

 

Why would you want your stamina cut in half because of your play-style?  That's not an acceptable solution.  Why would you even go there, especially considering how cooking affects stamina and your thoughts on cooking...

 

Clear your mind of our past interactions for a minute, just for a minute...  I'll go back to that at the end of the post, promise.

 

99 hours would work for you?  Great.  No sense having all that fatigue time if you are not premium, correct? 

I know you are taking a break right now, but you were premium how many consecutive months before the break?  I'm guessing many months.

 

Is it game breaking for you if a brand new player to Wurm has 12 hours of fatigue, as the system exists today?  If so, why?

My rationale is

  1. New players are the most likely culprits when it comes to macroing.  That could be wrong, of course.  You may believe otherwise, but it is my rationale I'm explaining.
  2. New players are unlikely to be binge leveling Blacksmithing, for example.  A new player has to be involved in every facet of Wurm.  A bit of farming, some woodcutting, carpentry, foraging and botanizing are likely big ones...  Villagers could be an exception but not really a great way to introduce them to wurm, is it?
  3. There are alts, let's skip that for now for the sake of progress.  Let's deal with your main first. 

To me, new players are where fatigue, as it stands, makes the most sense.

You don't think fatigue makes sense at all.  I know.  Work with what we've got though.  The devs have fatigue in the game, assume that's somehow important to them and try to work with it.

 

So...

  1. players most likely to be affected by fatigue have been playing a while.  How long?  I'm going with 3 months.  You might say 1 month.  Just an example.  A detail to revisit later.
  2. A player that is not premiumed has no concern with fatigue, they cannot skill above 20.  Correct?
  3. It is offensive to established players to have others suggest they are macroers.  Correct?  One would imagine that after such time in the community, trust and benefit of the doubt would be the rule.  Right?
  4. I know, fatigue doesn't stop macroers.  Whatever.  We're working with what we've got.
  5. It would be wrong to remove any bonus immediately after missing just one month of premium, covered.

Now tell me, how is what I suggested a few posts back an assault on your play-style, a referendum on your play-style, telling you how to play, or looking to impose upon you in any way?

 

Can you see how the system I threw out there would eventually get you and others to 99+hours of fatigue pool?  If so, what's the problem?  Nadroj suggested 24 hours.  I'm suggesting no limit, theoretically.

  • It's not immediate, or quick enough to ramp up?
    • Thought of that.  Hence saying 3 times that the numbers are examples.  Had to use some numbers to flesh it out.
    • Also, mentioned retroactive implementation to respect the fact that we already have established, trusted players and shouldn't make them wait from the start like a newb.

********************************************************

I'm not giving up because I think it's more fun, and more productive, to try and see where the common ground lies and how to work with it as Hailene suggested.  She got slapped around for it.  So yeah, I slapped back a little, that's what people do when there's slapping going on. 

********************************************************

Ok, back to what you know of our past interactions if you'd like.  I'm not helpful, you're so critical, pew pew pew. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Reylaark said:

 

Why would you want your stamina cut in half because of your play-style?  That's not an acceptable solution.  Why would you even go there, especially considering how cooking affects stamina and your thoughts on cooking...

 

Clear your mind of our past interactions for a minute, just for a minute...  I'll go back to that at the end of the post, promise.

 

99 hours would work for you?  Great.  No sense having all that fatigue time if you are not premium, correct? 

I know you are taking a break right now, but you were premium how many consecutive months before the break?  I'm guessing many months.

 

Is it game breaking for you if a brand new player to Wurm has 12 hours of fatigue, as the system exists today?  If so, why?

My rationale is

  1. New players are the most likely culprits when it comes to macroing.  That could be wrong, of course.  You may believe otherwise, but it is my rationale I'm explaining.
  2. New players are unlikely to be binge leveling Blacksmithing, for example.  A new player has to be involved in every facet of Wurm.  A bit of farming, some woodcutting, carpentry, foraging and botanizing are likely big ones...  Villagers could be an exception but not really a great way to introduce them to wurm, is it?
  3. There are alts, let's skip that for now for the sake of progress.  Let's deal with your main first. 

To me, new players are where fatigue, as it stands, makes the most sense.

You don't think fatigue makes sense at all.  I know.  Work with what we've got though.  The devs have fatigue in the game, assume that's somehow important to them and try to work with it.

 

So...

  1. players most likely to be affected by fatigue have been playing a while.  How long?  I'm going with 3 months.  You might say 1 month.  Just an example.  A detail to revisit later.
  2. A player that is not premiumed has no concern with fatigue, they cannot skill above 20.  Correct?
  3. It is offensive to established players to have others suggest they are macroers.  Correct?  One would imagine that after such time in the community, trust and benefit of the doubt would be the rule.  Right?
  4. I know, fatigue doesn't stop macroers.  Whatever.  We're working with what we've got.
  5. It would be wrong to remove any bonus immediately after missing just one month of premium, covered.

Now tell me, how is what I suggested a few posts back an assault on your play-style, a referendum on your play-style, telling you how to play, or looking to impose upon you in any way?

 

Can you see how the system I threw out there would eventually get you and others to 99+hours of fatigue pool?  If so, what's the problem?  Nadroj suggested 24 hours.  I'm suggesting no limit, theoretically.

  • It's not immediate, or quick enough to ramp up?
    • Thought of that.  Hence saying 3 times that the numbers are examples.  Had to use some numbers to flesh it out.
    • Also, mentioned retroactive implementation to respect the fact that we already have established, trusted players and shouldn't make them wait from the start like a newb.

********************************************************

I'm not giving up because I think it's more fun, and more productive, to try and see where the common ground lies and how to work with it as Hailene suggested.  She got slapped around for it.  So yeah, I slapped back a little, that's what people do when there's slapping going on. 

********************************************************

Ok, back to what you know of our past interactions if you'd like.  I'm not helpful, you're so critical, pew pew pew. 

 

 


Like I said, it's not he fix I want, but I would be willing to live with it.   As I said, I'd prefer the fatigue system be completely removed.   Your suggestion on increasing the cap doesn't solve anything.  All it would do is make my fatigue, starting from max, run out in 5 days instead of 4.    My remark about setting fatigue cap to 99 was "tongue in cheek".   Meant simply that if the devs don't want to spend time on recoding fatigue they could simply change a few values to such a point that it would effectively disable fatigue.    Set max to 99, set regen to 5 mins......
Also, not really looking for common ground.  We aren't discussing some complex issue that can have many potential outcomes, we are discussing a game mechanic that needs to be fixed.  Common ground in this case equals "it's not fixed but we'll pretend it is."   The best argument put forward by people who support fatigue is "Well if it's disabled it would allow macros."   That's the best argument in favour of fatigue and that can be shot full of holes.  

 

Edited by Greyfox

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Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words.
I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say.

Spoiler

:huh:

On 5/23/2017 at 5:30 AM, Greyfox said:

Like I said, it's not he fix I want, but I would be willing to live with it.   As I said, I'd prefer the fatigue system be completely removed. our suggestion on increasing the cap doesn't solve anything.  All it would do is make my fatigue, starting from max, run out in 5 days instead of 4. 

With ~12hours recovered every night.. fatigue is gone for good.. making whole ticks and tracking pointless and just dragging performance down for nothing.

Plus he's doing worse than you're understanding.. and kind of.. what you want.. his idea lets you play ~16hours a day straight, w/o the need of any breaks or moving  a pixel away from work tile, amazing, right?<_<:wacko:

It's one good way to put something more to loyalty reward system.. but also.. who actually needs that much time? If most players never use theirs as it is currently.. regenerating barely half of that overnight. If anything.. it promotes macroing.. to be able to remain somewhat competitive:huh::huh:

On 5/23/2017 at 5:30 AM, Greyfox said:

Also, not really looking for common ground.  We aren't discussing some complex issue that can have many potential outcomes, we are discussing a game mechanic that needs to be fixed.  Common ground in this case equals "it's not fixed but we'll pretend it is."   The best argument put forward by people who support fatigue is "Well if it's disabled it would allow macros."   That's the best argument in favour of fatigue and that can be shot full of holes. 

You do not care about the other people? Why should the other care if you want to outgrind and overachieve making 2-3-5k bricks more every day?

common ground keeps everybody happy~.. not just the 1 person having the time to spend, monetize, and put regulars in the corner.. rarely able to compete with the amounts you're able to produce.

It's an mmo.. there should be some balance, it's not a desktop solo game.. to just get things done in few days.

 

Fatigue is doing more than 'stopping macroers', if somebody macro it's easy to go around this, fatigue is mainly preventing people with more free time to rule the game and drive others away.

 

Edited by Finnn

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14 hours ago, Greyfox said:
Spoiler


Like I said, it's not he fix I want, but I would be willing to live with it.   As I said, I'd prefer the fatigue system be completely removed.   Your suggestion on increasing the cap doesn't solve anything.  All it would do is make my fatigue, starting from max, run out in 5 days instead of 4.    My remark about setting fatigue cap to 99 was "tongue in cheek".   Meant simply that if the devs don't want to spend time on recoding fatigue they could simply change a few values to such a point that it would effectively disable fatigue.    Set max to 99, set regen to 5 mins......
Also, not really looking for common ground.  We aren't discussing some complex issue that can have many potential outcomes, we are discussing a game mechanic that needs to be fixed.  Common ground in this case equals "it's not fixed but we'll pretend it is."   The best argument put forward by people who support fatigue is "Well if it's disabled it would allow macros."   That's the best argument in favour of fatigue and that can be shot full of holes.  



 

It's not the fix you want, I know... but it still seems to me increasing the pool of fatigue to a point it no longer makes any difference would be preferable to you than having your stamina cut in half.  Somehow you'd rather live with that, than have your fatigue cap become irrelevant over time.  Can't quite make sense of that, but certainly your prerogative. 

 

You keep missing the rather pertinent part where a dev tells you the system is not considered broken.  I honestly don't think people completely ignoring what a dev tells them is really going to lead to any progress.  Arium had a very interesting point regarding the recharging code.  Perhaps we'll learn that will be improved upon.  Somehow, though, I don't think that would be enough to help you.

 

I know I've seen quite a few people say fatigue does nothing to stop macroes.  I believe you, simply because it sounds like you guys know something I don't.  I don't know how you know this, and confirm it.

 

Either way, it doesn't seem to be how the devs look at it currently.  I think how the devs look at it should be part of the equation when working out something that removes this impediment from your game-play. 

 

There have been plenty of games in which my sense was the Devs had no idea what they were doing, but Wurm is not one of them.  Perhaps that is something we'll never see eye to eye on so mutual agreement on a solution to the trouble you're experiencing isn't possible.  Unfortunate, but such is life.  At least I'm pretty comfortable it's not for lack of trying at this point.

 

It could be that next month, Devs will come out and say fatigue was removed.  Cool with me.  If they come out and say they've decided it remains, how to mitigate that for trusted players may become more salient to established players.  One shall see.  I'll still be here happy to discuss it, rather than just "giving up."

 

8 hours ago, Finnn said:
Spoiler

 

:huh:

With ~12hours recovered every night.. fatigue is gone for good.. making whole ticks and tracking pointless and just dragging performance down for nothing.

Plus he's doing worse than you're understanding.. and kind of.. what you want.. his idea lets you play ~16hours a day straight, w/o the need of any breaks or moving  a pixel away from work tile, amazing, right?<_<:wacko:

It's one good way to put something more to loyalty reward system.. but also.. who actually needs that much time? If most players never use theirs as it is currently.. regenerating barely half of that overnight. If anything.. it promotes macroing.. to be able to remain somewhat competitive:huh::huh:

 

 

 

"Plus he's doing worse than you're understanding"  :lol:  Thanks man, that's swell.

 

Keep in mind, we're talking about players who have no need whatsoever of a loyalty system.  That incentive isn't the point at all, as it isn't needed.  I'm not proposing extending the bonus to newer players, but rather to established players who need no incentive.  I hope that isn't worse than what you've understood thus far.

 

Sure, I don't think spending 24hours straight on the same tile banging an anvil sounds fun... at this point in my life.  That's why I don't personally play that way.

You keep saying you don't judge other people's play-style, but then knock a system that allows people to "play ~16hours a day straight, w/o the need of any breaks or moving  a pixel away from work tile, amazing, right?"  If it's amazing to them, then it's amazing to them.  Doesn't need to be amazing to me.

There will always be people more advanced than me, in every game I play, even if I get in on early release. 

 

That doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to throw the ethics that keep me from using macroes out the window.  I'm 100% certain I'm not alone in that, and I'm fairly certain people don't macro out of necessity.

8 hours ago, Finnn said:
Spoiler

You do not care about the other people? Why should the other care if you want to outgrind and overachieve making 2-3-5k bricks more every day?

common ground keeps everybody happy~.. not just the 1 person having the time to spend, monetize, and put regulars in the corner.. rarely able to compete with the amounts you're able to produce.

It's an mmo.. there should be some balance, it's not a desktop solo game.. to just get things done in few days.

 

Fatigue is doing more than 'stopping macroers', if somebody macro it's easy to go around this, fatigue is mainly preventing people with more free time to rule the game and drive others away.

 

 

 

Yes, common ground is where it's at when people are actually interested in moving forward.  Hopefully everyone is interested in actually moving forward, and not just bouncing the same intractable, rigid ideas at each other.

 

PingPong did mention on the first page(or 2nd) that one of Rolf's original assertions was just as you say, to limit people with more time than others out of fairness to people who have less time.  I believe him that Rolf said this.

 

From that standpoint, yes... if the designer says, "this is how I want to design my game," to me that's game, set, and match.  Ultimately.

 

On the other hand, I don't think there's any harm in people working out a system that respects the designer's vision, while tweaking it to make some members of the community happier.  Particularly members of the community who have been around a very long time.

 

What common ground are you willing to share?  What compromise are you offering?  How do you empathize with the people hitting the fatigue wall, and what do you propose to offer them some relief?  Again, particularly the players that have been here a long time and have earned consideration.

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bumping this thread for no good reason other than that im bored as i still have to wait 16 minutes and a bit to log into the game so as to not loose a full fatigue refresh due to a bug/oversight in the code.

 

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Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words.
I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say.

Spoiler

+1 for dev input about the code part ^

 

Edited by Finnn

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2 hours ago, Arium said:

bumping this thread for no good reason other than that im bored as i still have to wait 16 minutes and a bit to log into the game so as to not loose a full fatigue refresh due to a bug/oversight in the code.

 

 

  • One final fridge run, plus another for what you inevitably forgot.
  • Requisite bathroom stop so you can be sure you don't need to go while playing.
  • You finally have time to call Grandma.
  • Once every four years, you have time to vote!  (ok, might have to get on that before the 16 minute mark, you got me)

Rolf was just lookin' out for you man. ^_^

 

 

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6 hours ago, DevBlog said:

Bugfix:  Fixed an issue with the fatigue timer resetting when it shouldn't.

 

came in with todays update.

 

after timing my logins for a few days i do have to say that while my fatigue is still dropping rather low i did not hit the wall these last days. wether it is because i am slacking or if it actually made such a big difference to have this additional hour i am not perfectly sure.

 

so give it a little while and if you had fatigue problems before and did not know about this and timed your logins to your fatigue ticks give it a try and feel free to reply with further feedback wether this already made a difference to you or if its not enough just yet.

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51 minutes ago, Arium said:

 

came in with todays update.

 

after timing my logins for a few days i do have to say that while my fatigue is still dropping rather low i did not hit the wall these last days. wether it is because i am slacking or if it actually made such a big difference to have this additional hour i am not perfectly sure.

 

so give it a little while and if you had fatigue problems before and did not know about this and timed your logins to your fatigue ticks give it a try and feel free to reply with further feedback wether this already made a difference to you or if its not enough just yet.



So after that BS of trying to say it wasn't broken they finally admitted it was broken and fixed it.....   Would have been so easy if they'd done that from the start.    Still a crappy system but this should at least help, no more screwed up fatigue regen on days you have to log out and back in often.

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Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words.
I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say.

Spoiler

I'd say you've been slacking, give it a chance to fully recover and than feedback if it's still draining too fast; (I'm not kidding, I did mention that summer might need a boost besides the fix)

 

Also GG @Ariumfor the WU code check and server bug report.

 

Edited by Finnn

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1 hour ago, Greyfox said:



So after that BS of trying to say it wasn't broken they finally admitted it was broken and fixed it.....   Would have been so easy if they'd done that from the start.    Still a crappy system but this should at least help, no more screwed up fatigue regen on days you have to log out and back in often.

 

Bah, most people claiming anything was broken were completely full of it themselves.  Only one in the lot of you that can claim to have had some idea is Arium, and even he isn't taking advantage of the situation for some gratuitous snide side-swipe.

 

Recharge code was improved upon after feedback from a user.  Another win for CCAB and the Wurm community.  We are the woooorld.... We are the peeeople... We are the ones, to make a brighter day... so....

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3 hours ago, Reylaark said:

 

Bah, most people claiming anything was broken were completely full of it themselves.  Only one in the lot of you that can claim to have had some idea is Arium, and even he isn't taking advantage of the situation for some gratuitous snide side-swipe.

 

Recharge code was improved upon after feedback from a user.  Another win for CCAB and the Wurm community.  We are the woooorld.... We are the peeeople... We are the ones, to make a brighter day... so....


*Sniff* I think I smell someone trying to backpedal over there defence of the fatigue system  :P

Anyway, if my remark came off as snide it wasn't meant to be.   It was supposed to come off as exasperation.

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Regeneration was bugged, the overall fatigue system and it's design is not "broken". Arium took the time to check out the regeneration issue and posted important feedback which enabled us to address it. This may improve getting back from the cap as logging in and out will no longer reset it, and I hope that is the case.

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16 hours ago, Greyfox said:

So after that BS of trying to say it wasn't broken they finally admitted it was broken and fixed it.....   Would have been so easy if they'd done that from the start.    Still a crappy system but this should at least help, no more screwed up fatigue regen on days you have to log out and back in often.

 

Oh look, someone who actually took the time to find a bug and make a helpful, non-bashy suggestion about how to fix it got a helpful, fast response to their request from the devs.  While the whiny, passive-aggressive guy who just likes to take pot-shots at whichever staff member last stuck their head above the parapet continues to be ignored by just about everyone.  Quelle surprise!

 

Never mind, you can console yourself with another complaint about how you refuse to pay premium anymore, because nobody cares about you.  Are you having fun yet?

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12 hours ago, Greyfox said:


*Sniff* I think I smell someone trying to backpedal over there defence of the fatigue system  :P

 

hey man, I'm on the paleo diet so had to give up modern deodorant, mmm'kay?  Now stop sniffing me, you're freaking me out.

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