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Pardigan

Fatigue system needs to be looked at

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Just now, Nadroj said:


While it would be nice to have another way to regen fatigue this still feels to me like the same issue of punishing players for playing the game a lot.

 

Hitting a fatigue wall shouldn't be happening all that often until it's a shared account.

 

Sustaining the effort to hit the fatigue cap and consistently hit it over even a few days pretty much beggars belief unless

 

1. It's a shared account

 

2. The person is macroing

 

3. The person plays a mega-crap ton AND is having whatever resources he needs (food, mats, etc.) supplied to him via alts or other players. Even then, sustaining this sort of gameplay is rough unless there's a medical reason the person needs to play that much.

 

So it shouldn't be used all that much is legitimate (IE case 3) situations.

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As stated above, i feel a big part of this issue is how many people seem to be in complete disbelief that players can legitimately hit the fatigue cap. It's a lot easier to do than people seem to think and it certainly does not require account sharing or macroing, playing a lot sure but why punish players for playing the game they pay premium for the right to play without restrictions on their account?

 

I've experienced hitting the cap several times before and atm a good friend of mine basically hits it every single day and is stuck in foreverfatigue all because he happens to be working hard on grinding his account atm, which just seems realy silly. He logs in every day and has to set skillgain goals not that he is trying to achieve, but that he hopes to achieve before fatigue forces him to log out of wurm.

Edited by Nadroj
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I'm no stranger to grinding, but I've never gotten close to hitting the cap (maybe 4 hours left?)

 

For someone consistently hitting the fatigue cap, there's just not that many skills to skill up unless you're aiming for 99 or something absurd in most of the skills.

 

If you're grinding efficiently, hitting 90 in a crafting skill won't take more than a couple of weeks, tops. Another couple weeks to 99.

 

In a few years you're out of skills to grind.

 

Maybe increasing the fatigue cap (but keeping the same rate) be a better solution. Boost it to 40 hours (as opposed to 24).

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52 minutes ago, Hailene said:

I'm no stranger to grinding, but I've never gotten close to hitting the cap (maybe 4 hours left?)

 

For someone consistently hitting the fatigue cap, there's just not that many skills to skill up unless you're aiming for 99 or something absurd in most of the skills.

 

If you're grinding efficiently, hitting 90 in a crafting skill won't take more than a couple of weeks, tops. Another couple weeks to 99.

 

In a few years you're out of skills to grind.

 

Maybe increasing the fatigue cap (but keeping the same rate) be a better solution. Boost it to 40 hours (as opposed to 24).

 

You say you know how to grind, yet you are unaware of the time required to take a skill to 99 and beyond, or even believe how people can actually grind harder than you.

 

There is no way anyone will run out of skills to grind in a few years, again your lack of knowledge is showing.

 

You also accuse people of cheating (botting/shared accounts) and having no life, etc etc in which case you are just making assumptions based on your own poor gaming playstyle.

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Just now, JakeRivers said:

You say you know how to grind, yet you are unaware of the time required to take a skill to 99 and beyond, or even believe how people can actually grind harder than you.

 

I hit 100 blacksmithing on my own.

 

That should answer your questions.

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2 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

I hit 100 blacksmithing on my own.

 

That should answer your questions.

 

Grats, it does not answer any questions at all, since you can't understand how someone can hit the fatigue wall, obviously you are a inefficient skill grinder.

 

Just because you can't do it hit the fatigue cap does not mean other people can't hit it.

 

Take your 100 bs and crawl back under your rock.

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2 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

Just because you can't do it hit the fatigue cap does not mean other people can't hit it.

 

Boohoo. Just because you don't know how to efficiently set up your game time doesn't mean the system is broken.

 

Learn to play and stop complaining.

 

Edit: On a side note, if you don't understand the difficulty of hitting 100 skill as opposed to something easy to grab like 99, then you really do need to shape up.

Edited by Hailene

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I would argue that efficiently setting up your game time is precisely what fatigue punishes people for Hailene. Efficiency is what uses up all your fatigue.

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Now i was actually thinking about posting this on the suggestion forums but since we already do have a discussion going on about the fatigue system as a whole in this thread i might aswell just post it here, and possibly do a smaller post in the suggestion forums later.

 

So first off for everyone who's not really familiar with the system and claims stuff like "even after playing for 18 hours straight i havent gotten to that point. it's actually impossible to reach it and if you do then you must be macroing or doing something complerely wrong" or something similar to this.
The fatigue system is a system that has a specific timer that can be anywhere between 0 seconds and 12 hours and counts down from 12 hours. one hour of fatigue is restored every three hours of real time. this timer is reduced only by actual ingame action timers.

so if you mainly watch a movie or show while semi-afk playing wurm with rather fast actions, such as imping, digging, creating, speed mining or similar with a limited action queue, you're unlikely to reach it.
this however changes if you swap this around and mainly play wurm while watching tv in the background. now if you're also someone who cares about efficiency and getting the most out of your time, you will try to have as little idle time in the game as possible. this is of course a lot easier with very slow actions like grinding mining, but it is also possible with shorter actions.
sure, it still requires you to reach over 8 hours of ingame time per day to actually run completely out of fatigue but the free time you have or the ways you play wurm differ from person to person. some people can do it while working, some do not work due to health issues, and some also change the skills they grind depending on circumstances. the rules do allow us certain freedom on longer actions after all.
(please read http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/123123-wurm-rules/ for reference and, in case of questions, try to contact the GMs or other staff who will most likely go out of their way to explain specific rules to you. do not try to act first and use "but this guy on forums said i would be allowed to" as an excuse after something bad happens. you, and only you, are responsible for your account)

 

However, there's two main problems this system brings in its current state.
The first is the insane inconsistency of the system.
What do i mean by inconsistency?
Well, first, let's take a look at all the fatigue using actions compared to those that do not actually require fatigue. (please note that these actions were taken from WU, they might not be 100% correct in WO but from experience and some testing about the weirder sounding ones i can claim that these are pretty accurate for actions actually available to players)

Using fatigue:

Spoiler

Sell
Tame
Plan building
Remove plan here
Finalize build plan
Destroy
Cut down
Chop up
Track
Teach
Build
Mend
Stealth
Pray
Desecrate
Dig
Mine
Mine upwards
Mine downwards
Create
Flatten
Farm
Harvest
Sow
Pack
Prospect
Fish
Attach lock
Repair
Build low wall
Build tall wall
Build wooden palisade
Build wooden fence
Build wooden palisade gate
Build wooden fence gate
Continue building
Plant naturally
Pick sprout
Destroy pavement
Improve
Repair
Practice
Preach
Forage
Botanize
Fillet
Tunnel
Reinforce
Cultivate
Milk
Dredge
Build mine door
Prune
Trap
Disarm
Breed
Build iron fence
Build woven fence
Build iron fence gate
Roof
Floor above
Floor below
Build hatch floor above
Build ladder
Build wooden parapet
Build stone parapet
Raise corner
Build crude wooden fence
Build stone and iron parapet
Build low roundpole fence
Build high roundpole fence
Build crude wooden fence gate
Build roundpole fence gate
Add to building
Remove from building
Level
Flatten
Analyse
Build stone fence
Build curb
Build low rope fence
Build high rope fence
Build high iron fence
Build high iron fence gate
Plant flowerbed
Plant flower
Water plant
Vegetables
Resources
Berries
Seeds
Herbs
Plants
Resource
Build chain fence
Build wooden wall
Build wooden window
Build wooden door
Build wooden double door
Build wooden arched wall
Build stone wall
Build stone window
Build stone door
Build stone double door
Build stone arched wall
Build timber framed wall
Build timber framed window
Build timber framed door
Build timber framed double door
Build timber framed arched wall
Plan bridge
Drain
Survey
Rummage
Trim
Gather
Shear
Build plain stone wall
Build plain stone window
Build plain narrow stone window
Build plain stone door
Build plain stone double door
Build plain stone arched wall
Build portcullis
Build plain stone portcullis
Build plain stone barred wall
Build stone portcullis
Build wood portcullis
Build staircase
Plant in center
Build timber framed balcony
Build timber framed jetty
Build decorated stone oriel
Build wooden canopy
Build wooden wide window
Build plain stone oriel
Rotate wall
Build wide staircase
Build right staircase
Build left staircase
Build clockwise spiral staircase
Build counter clockwise spiral staircase
Build clockwise spiral staircase with banisters
Build counter clockwise spiral staircase with banisters
Build wide staircase with right banister
Build wide staircase with left banister
Build wide staircase with both banisters
Spices
Build wood left arch
Build wood right arch
Build wood T arch
Build stone left arch
Build stone right arch
Build stone T arch
Build timber framed left arch
Build timber framed right arch
Build timber framed T arch
Build plain stone left arch
Build plain stone right arch
Build plain stone T arch
Build slate brick wall
Build slate brick window
Build slate brick narrow window
Build slate brick door
Build slate brick double door
Build slate brick arched wall
Build slate brick portcullis
Build slate brick barred wall
Build slate brick oriel
Build slate brick left arch
Build slate brick right arch
Build slate brick T arch
Build rounded stone wall
Build rounded stone window
Build rounded stone narrow window
Build rounded stone door
Build rounded stone double door
Build rounded stone arched wall
Build rounded stone portcullis
Build rounded stone barred wall
Build rounded stone oriel
Build rounded stone left arch
Build rounded stone right arch
Build rounded stone T arch
Build pottery brick wall
Build pottery brick window
Build pottery brick narrow window
Build pottery brick door
Build pottery brick double door
Build pottery brick arched wall
Build pottery brick portcullis
Build pottery brick barred wall
Build pottery brick oriel
Build pottery brick left arch
Build pottery brick right arch
Build pottery brick T arch
Build sandstone brick wall
Build sandstone brick window
Build sandstone brick narrow window
Build sandstone brick door
Build sandstone brick double door
Build sandstone brick arched wall
Build sandstone brick portcullis
Build sandstone brick barred wall
Build sandstone brick oriel
Build sandstone brick left arch
Build sandstone brick right arch
Build sandstone brick T arch
Build marble brick wall
Build marble brick window
Build marble brick narrow window
Build marble brick door
Build marble brick double door
Build marble brick arched wall
Build marble brick portcullis
Build marble brick barred wall
Build marble brick oriel
Build marble brick left arch
Build marble brick right arch
Build marble brick T arch
Build slate fence
Build slate iron fence
Build slate iron fence gate
Build rounded stone fence
Build rounded stone iron fence
Build rounded stone iron fence gate
Build pottery fence
Build pottery iron fence
Build pottery iron fence gate
Build sandstone fence
Build sandstone iron fence
Build sandstone iron fence gate
Build marble fence
Build marble iron fence
Build marble iron fence gate
Render wall
Swap arch side

not using fatigue:

Spoiler

None
Examine
Open
Wave
Drop
Disengage
Ride
Buy
Call
Read
Knock
Taste
Quit
Tell
Quaff
Dismount
Abandon
Uncover
Cover
Unsaddle
Lock
Saddle
Wake
Wear
Wizkill
Find path
Legal mode
Faith mode
Drop dirt
Climb
Stop climbing
Go here
Clear orders
Attack
Stay online
Go offline
Give
Follow
Group
Ungroup
Pour
Sip
Snuff
Crush
Pick seeds
Rename
Add
Remove
Manage
Trade
Get coordinates
Found settlement
Manage citizens
Manage guards
Manage settings
Manage reputations
Manage gates
Settlement history
Area history
Invite to join
Drag
Stop dragging
Resize
Info
Replace
No spoon
Manage politics
Form alliance
Destroy structure
Spam mode
Set price
Get price
Set data
Change kingdom
Poll
Ask for refreshment
Learn
Combine
Set teleport marker
Teleport
Protect
Push
Steal
Pick lock
Unlock
Taunt
Learn
Shieldbash
Lead
Stop leading
Backstab
Recite
Rest
Kick
Attack
Listen
Burn
Butcher
Cast
Scalp
Shoot
Shoot quickly
Aim at head
Aim at face
Aim at torso
Aim at left arm
Aim at right arm
Aim at legs
String
Unstring
Shoot Arrow
Hide
Hang
Sit
Sleep
Sacrifice
Stop
Pave
Fight aggressively
Fight normally
Defend
Destroy fence
Disassemble fence
Destroy wall
Disassemble wall
Turn item clockwise
Turn item counterclockwise
Summon
Destroy
Pull
Eat
Drink
Shutdown Server
Get info
Grow
Fill
Manage player payments
Manage player powers
Firstaid
move
move
move
move
move
move
move
move
move
move
move
Magranon's shield
Vynora's hand
Libila's shielding
Human's demise
Selfhealer's demise
Animal's demise
Dragon's demise
Locate artifact
Vessel
Rebirth
Dominate
Charm
Circle of cunning
Flaming aura
Aura of shared pain
Wind of ages
Opulence
Rotting touch
Morning fog
Mix
Treat
Lore
Become a priest
Left Hard
Left Normal
Left quick
Left Hard
Left Normal
Left Quick
Left Hard
Left Normal
Left Quick
Hard
Normal
Quick
Hard
Normal
Quick
Hard
Normal
Quick
Right Hard
Right Normal
Right Quick
Right Hard
Right Normal
Right Quick
Right Hard
Right Normal
Right Quick
High
Left
Low
Right
Rent 1 copper
Rent 10 copper
Rent 1 silver
Rent 10 silver
No rent
Rent
Sleep
Target
Freeze
Suck Egg
Spy
Hatch
Embark - commander
Embark - passenger
Disembark
Reimbursements
Change terrain
Check
Send
Courier
Dark messenger
Focus
No target
Throw
Duel
Spar
Heal
Absorb
Disband settlement
Stop disband
Drain coffers
Receive instructions
Log
Take the test
Appoint
Kingdoms
Kingdom history
Announce
Abdicate
Manage Vehicle
Moor
Raise anchor
Manage mine door
Rent 10 iron
Rent 25 iron
Rent 50 iron
Sculpt
Recharge
Economics
Manage perimeter
Sixth Sense
Unhitch
Wish
Protect
Remove protection
Count items
Meditate
Leave path
Path leaders
Light path
Enchant
Love effect
Increase attack damage
Increase structure damage
Fear effect
Elemental immunity
Trap immunity
Clean
Fill
Puppeteer
Groom
Link
Holy Crop
Ritual of the Sun
Rite of Death
Rite of Spring
Bearpaws
Humiddrizzle
Genesis
Lifetransfer
Frogleap
Venom
Tornado
Ice Pillar
Mind Stealer
Nimbleness
Frost Brand
Tentacles
Locate Soul
Fire Pillar
Goat Shape
Fire Heart
Mass Stamina
Phantasms
Rotting Gut
Weakness
Worm Brains
Zombie Infestation
Pain Rain
Fungus Trap
Land of the Dead
Wild growth
Ward
Mole Senses
Strongwall
Excel
Reveal Settlement
Reveal Creatures
Wisdom of Vynora
Dispel
Spell list
Dirt
Bloodthirst
Web armour
Blessings of the dark
Lurker in the deep
Lurker in the woods
Lurker in the dark
Wrap
Toggle Limit
Insert
Remove ten
Remove fifty
Refund
GM interface
Team up
Remove from team
Manage team
Manage missions
Talk
Show
Step on
Get log events
Found kingdom
Twitter settings
Test terrain
Brand
Shard of Ice
Test
Vote for ruler removal
Challenge ruler
Recall home
Final Breath
Kill
Cut down
Voice chat options
Last gasp
Ritual of faith
Ritual of rain
Ritual of fog
Ritual of sun
Ritual of healing
Ritual of death
Ritual of plague
Create focus zone
Conquer
Inscribe
Read inscription
Manage achievements
Karma
Weave wall
Summon guards
Climb up
Climb down
Destroy floor
Destroy roof
GM tool
Feature Management
Threaten
Traits
Enchants
Manage roles
Karma Disease
Rust Monster
Fireball
Karma Bolt
Karma Missile
Karma Continuum
Stone skin
Karma Slow
True Strike
Wall of Ice
Wall of Fire
Wall of Stone
Summon
Forecast
Lightning
Mirrored Self
Profile
Add group
Open
Pave nearest corner
Turn invisible
Turn visible
Invulnerable
Vulnerable
Decay
Remove
View/Update Ticket...
Cancel...
Respond
Resolve...
GM...
Arch...
Dev...
On Hold...
Take Ticket
CM...
Ticket Survey...
Create recruitment ad
ReOpen...
Discard
Look for village
Delete recruitment ad
Edit recruitment ad
Paint terrain
Load cargo
Unload cargo
Add to crafting window
Switch deity
Voting Setup
Commune
Rough cobblestone
Round cobblestone
Summon Worg
Summon Wraith
Summon Skeleton
Transfer rarity
Imbue
Sprout trees
Setup CA Help Groups
Hold
As Pile
Tangleweave
Remove Brand
Modify
Friends
InsideOut
Manage Animal
Manage Building
Manage Large Cart
Manage Door
Manage Gate
Manage Ship
Manage Wagon
Add to Upkeep
Haul up
Haul down
Manage All Doors
Tag Item
Summon Tagged Item
Use
Manage Restrictions
Pickup planted item
Incinerate
Manage Small Cart
Manage Item
Show Village Plan
Search Permissions
History of Building
History of Door
Skip Tutorial
Rough in nearest corner
Round in nearest corner
Push gently
Pull gently
Toggle CA Status
Toggle CM status
Player info
Sit
Sit on the left
Sit on the right
Stand up
Target hostile
Plot course
Default action
Kingdom members
Meditation Path
Change Path
Throw
Increase angle
Reduce angle
Ram

First category: crafting.
As we can see, basically all crafting related actions are fatigue actions. This includes creating items, improving items, repairing items.
Second category: terraforming / resource gathering.
The same for these, all fatigue related. digging, mining, tunneling, packing, cultivating, farming related activities and similar.
Third category: building.
Again, these are all fatigue related actions. building fences, walls, floors as well as repairing them.
Fourth category: combat.
Any and all combat related actions, both meele combat as well as archery, are non-fatigue actions.
Fifth category: priest actions.
The only priest related skill that actually uses fatigue is praying. Other than that, be it sacrificing or actually casting spells, they do not require any fatigue and will not lower it.
Sixth category: siege mechanics.
Using war machines does not require any fatigue either, no matter the machine. same goes for destroying walls, fences, floors by bashing.
Seventh category: instantanous actions.
These make up pretty much the remaining non-fatigue action list. It contains a variety of actions that you use every day. since they don't have an actual action timer it wouldn't make sense for these to use fatigue, so i will be paying little attention to this category further on.


So out of seven, or rather six, different action categories we have three, which most people would probably refer to as PvE/Crafting actions, that are bound to fatigue.
Yet on the other hand we have three which are not bound to fatigue.

However, there are still some very weird things which do not fit into any of these categories so i will be listing them here.
Butchering - you can actually butcher animals for meat even without fatigue. yet you can not fillet meat without fatigue or acquire fish, which i would consider another kind of meat, without fatigue.
paving - packing tiles requires fatigue but paving a tile does not. you could cover a whole server in gravel without having to care about fatigue at all, as long as the whole server would consist of packed dirt.
grooming - both grooming and shearing sheep work for grinding animal husbandry. yet how come grooming does not require fatigue while shearing sheep does?

These weird cases do show quite a bit of inconsistency in the system, at least to me.

The second problem i see with the system is that it is outdated. However, i will come back to this in a bit.

 

Next, let's talk about the GOALS of the fatigue system.
During my last inquiry if a suggestion about certain changes to the fatigue system would even have a chance i was told that "it works in its current format. It achieves the goals it sets out to do, people just disagree on those goals".
So, what even IS the actual goal of the fatigue system.
So far i've heard about two main things, but im not sure either of these has ever been official, or if it was it is probably long lost.
1. fatigue is meant as an anti-macro system.
2. it is used to prevent "nolifers" from getting too far ahead of the crowd.
And after looking at the differences between the categories of things that actually require fatigue i have come up with a third theory:
3. fatigue was meant to promote pvp.

 

Now let's look at each of these theories a bit closer.
The first theory, that fatigue is an anti-macro system.
Now this i think is quite plausible. After all it prevents someone from spamming the same actions over and over again for hours, days or even weeks.
However, this is also the first theory where i come back to the problem of the fatigue system being outdated.
I'm pretty certain that there are more things in the background than just the fatigue system, and i certainly also do hope so.
However, a cheat prevention system should not go as far as actually impacting gameplay for human players in a big way, and im pretty sure people will agree with me here.

Second theory.
It might be a possibility, but if that is one of the actual goals i also have to say that it is outdated. The game has been running for quite a few years and if that might have been working in the past, nowadays it only serves to open up an unbridgable gap between old and new players. They both can spend the same time in the game

Third theory.
Combat, archery, priest spells and siege weapons do not require fatigue. However, would this be a viable theory just because of that?
i'm not too sure considering that you can not mine ammunition or dig down dirtwalls without fatigue and stealthing also actually does require fatigue. Also, the priest spells were not split into pve and pvp spells, or rather offensive and supportive spells. This might have been an oversight, or it might just not be the actual goal we are looking for.


However, all of these are after all just THEORIES. So take them with a grain of salt.

 

Now let's instead see if theres any actual problems or advantages that can come from any of these aspects.

 

-One of the first and biggest problems i see is that, if the main purpose is actually to hinder macroing, why do priests require absolute no fatigue for any of their priest-only actions?
as long as they would have enough sacrifice materials they could keep going all day, every day.
i could understand if the spells would have been split into pve and pvp spells here, where offensive spells do not require fatigue to prevent bad accidents in actual pvp battles, yet pve spells would require fatigue. However, this obviously didnt happen.

- Priest-Fighters following specific gods having quite an advantage is another thing i'd like to point out. currently, due to neither combat nor priest activities needing fatigue you can spend all day casting "wisdom of vynora" on yourself and burning down all your fatigue, effectively giving you completely free SB that any person who actually needs said fatigue to keep going can not get.

- Priest is often better suited for long grinds of non-improve skills. Due to the reason that after their characteristic nerf has been removed and if you really stick to one grind, you still have the possibility to either cast spells when you run out of fatigue or use their deity-specific bonuses for hunting or others, or burn through your remaining fatigue with "wisdom of vynora" for more efficient fatigue usage and free sb, as long as their priest penalties do not forbid the skill you actually want to grind.

 

So far, so good. However, we are after all asking for the fatigue system to be review and changed in some ways to not hinder those of us who currently are affected by its current state.

For this i currently see three easy possibilities to still make use of the current system. Two of which are rather extremes and need a longer time to actually be implemented and one that would probably be a lot faster to bring into the game but have less of an impact too.

First, the negative extreme.
Change ALL non-instantanous actions to require fatigue.
For combat-related actions, have the game substract the time spent in actual combat from the fatigue, for archery the shooting timer along with a slight bonus due to not having to ride up to the enemy, for priests the time they actually spend casting, for siege machinery the time spent using it, be it winching or swinging the ram.
BUT THIS SOUNDS CRAZY!
yes, it certainly does. however, sometimes consistency comes at a price.  currently people claim that it's impossible to even reach the fatigue time. well, i am hopeful that this kind of change would bring more people to support changes to the fatigue system, not in such a negative way, but a positive one instead.

Next up, the positive extreme.
"Remove" fatigue. And by this i do not mean actually removing the whole system but rather removing the fact that no fatigue disables so many actions. The system can still do all the things it currently does in the background, possibly even still count down the fatigue, yet it just disables the lockout from playing.
However, introducing this in a way that still counts down fatigue and just removes the lockout would still impact the "Wisdom of Vynora" spell, since it would still be actively affecting fatigue, and would likely lead to every person using priests to spam the spell on themselves before grinding for free sleep bonus.
A better possibility would probably be to remove the actual checks of fatigue along with its reduction so that fatigue remains, yet as a pure ressource for "wisdom of vynora" casts, and at the same time the conversion rate for the spell is rebalanced.

Last but not least, the quicker change.
Increase the fatigue regeneration while offline (or only when logged out in a bed?) to 1 hour of fatigue every 2 real hours.
This would allow people who are currently running out of fatigue or are edging very close on a regular basis to not have to worry about it anymore for the time being.
A change to the "Wisdom of Vynora" fatigue:sleep bonus rate should come along with this change. From its current 5 to 1 ratio to 6.5 or 7 to 1 to balance out with the fatigue increase.

 

Looking at these three possible changes that could be made to the system the first one looks pretty bad from a player perspective at least. make life of priests AND fighters/pvpers worse without improving the current situation for those already having trouble with how it currently is at all?
However, you can also pair that change with the third possibility which will effectively expand the fatigue system to all skills yet will probably make it unlikely for a human player to encounter trouble with the fatigue cap again, at least on a regular basis. The cap would still remain in place for incredibly long single grind session, however out of those who have complained about the system barely anyone ever encountered it due to this scenario.

The second, extreme positive would probably not bring any change to how the current fatigue system works in the background, yet would remove any impact it has on actual gameplay experience.

 

So as you can see, theres a bunch of things in the current fatigue system that i, personally, find very confusing and inconsistent. However, there certainly is a very easy change that could be done to the system that would likely remove most of the problems of those people stuck hitting the cap often, while making absolutely no difference to anyone who never had a problem with it, and would even minimize the chance of them ever experiencing it themselves.
There also are more extreme approaches that could be taken, which likely would take more time to be worked out in detail.
However, the final decision about which of these solutions could work out the best lies with the developers in the end.

 

TLDR;

current system seems to have forgotten all about war machines, being priests and has some very wonky special cases.

three suggested changes:

either make fatigue affect everyone equally by affecting every single action.

remove fatigue check and allow people to continue even without remaining fatigue.

increase fatigue regeneration while offline/logged out in a bed.

 

 

on another note, keep it clean guys, theres no need to devolve into biting each other every other page. i can understand that people claim that they havent encountered the fatigue cap during their time in the game and theres no need to get mad at them, neither is it of any help for them to think they need to babysit those who do encounter it.

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I thoroughly support a boosted regen to fatigue while logged off and/or in a bed. It just makes sense.

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2 minutes ago, Nadroj said:

I would argue that efficiently setting up your game time is precisely what fatigue punishes people for Hailene. Efficiency is what uses up all your fatigue.

 

Sort of. It depends on what you're doing exactly (you can't really mix up your time if you want to dig 50,000 clay) but for other things you divide up your time in an equally efficient manner.

 

Say you want to build an underground water way system through a mountain.

 

You could try doing all the things completely in sequence (gather all the sprouts, then cut down all the trees, cut up all the trees...to make support  beams, then go ahead and mine out the entire canal at once), but if you break up the sequence of actions between fatigue intensive actions and non-fatigue intensive actions you can stretch your fatigue much further.

 

So you mine for a couple of days and find yourself low on fatigue. So instead of spending 7 hours mining the third day and running out of fatigue, you can do something related to the task but isn't as fatigue intensive...like gathering sprouts, cutting down trees, replanting, etc.

 

Hammering out the mats and building the support beams (or sowing and harvesting crops if you go that way) also is relatively less fatigue intense.

 

This isn't a perfect solution for the player that players 16+ hours every day, but if you're going to be that  committed to the game, then having several alts running at the same time should increase your productivity and stretch your fatigue a bit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

 

I will agree that the fatigue system isn't perfect. For me, to get rid of the fatigue system I'd need assurance of an anti-bot system that consistently works to weed out botters.

 

Until then, the fatigue system works as a reasonable (if not perfect) way to keep extreme botters in check.

 

Does it hurt some individuals? Yes. Undoubtedly. But these extreme individuals can mostly work around fatigue issues as long as they plan well.

 

Though as a concession, I think boosting maximum fatigue from 24 hours to 40 hours would be a good compromise.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Hailene said:

 

 

Though as a concession, I think boosting maximum fatigue from 24 hours to 40 hours would be a good compromise.

 

 

 

It maxes at 12 hours atm not 24 :(

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4 minutes ago, Nadroj said:

 

 

It maxes at 12 hours atm not 24 :(

 

Brain fart on my part. My bad.

 

Yeah, 12 hours.

 

With 40 hours, assuming 12 hours of actions a day, that gives you a week and a half of playtime.

 

Bump it up to 14 hours of actions a day and you still have a week's worth of actions.

 

I figure this ought to cover just about anyone. Even people who work two weeks and a get a week off should be okay and students on long breaks should be okay.

Edited by Hailene

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The problem seems to be that the fatigue timer doesn't regen fast enough for people who grind skills with long timers. Honestly, I don't think I've ever hit the fatigue timer, but I can see it being possible.

 

You people that do hit the fatigue timer... just wow...

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Yeah that's basically it, anyone who is efficient with skills like digging and mining can easily hit the cap because the timers are so long.

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The question is whether or not the regen rate is too low or if the players are playing in bursts that overwhelm their stockpile of fatigue.

 

Like some people work 2 weeks then have a week off. So those people can widdle down their fatigue over the course of 5-6 days (burning 10-11 hours of fatigue). Or people can also do 15 hours every day for a few days like over a weekend? If that's the case, it's just a matter of increasing the reserve.

 

Or possibly people other people who have more time to play Wurm just do 10+ hours of actions every day? And then that's an issue of regen.

 

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You can spend literally half of every day of your life doing fatigue draining actions in wurm. People are hitting this limit consistently. Spending 12 hours of every day doing actions only. This is a bad thing though to the wurm community. Not because spending 3/4s of your waking hours in wurm is unhealthy mentally and emotionally (likely physically as well) but because you can't spend 100% of your time in wurm.

 

I bet this'll get decried as toxic but for once in my life I actually kind of feel sad for the wurm community. If I ever hit fatigue I'll probably go for a stroll and reconsider my life. Or if I have no operating legs Ill have my nurse wheel me to the porch so I can cry in the fresh air. I mean just hitting fatigue to begin with takes what, almost a full 24hrs of grinding? More if you sleep 8 hours? I only knew one guy who would hit fatigue consistently and people considered him a madman a decade ago for doing so

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At the risk of repeating myself, the discussion isn't about whether or not you're capable of believing that players who hit this cap arn't all botters and macroers. Calling everyone that is pointless, insulting and demonstrably incorrect. It's not an opinion that people can and do hit the cap by just playing the game within the rules, it's fact.

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I'm fairly sure "making players maintain a healthy game/life balance" was never a goal - can anyone point to an official post stating this was what the design intention was?  I'd also say that the reason all the combat related skills are non-fatigue depenant is so that PvP'ers, getting raided, can still defend themselves even when they've ground away all their fatigue; it's a way to make fatigue not prevent PvP defence.  The system is not 'insanely inconsistent' (unless you have a really low sanity bar) - there are a few cases where it's not quite right (butchering/filleting, shearing/grooming), which are probably bugs.  Instead of a wall of text here, you should make a post with those specific points in the server bugs forum, so the devs can look at it.

 

It would be interesting to have some official indication of what exactly fatigue is supposed to accomplish.  So far, all there's been here is a bunch of player speculation, then argument about that speculation.  Retrograde / Budda / Keenan / anyone else official, feel free to chime in here...

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Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words.
I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say.

Spoiler

It is a game mechanic tho, and only 5-10 people(same names) feel the need for a change, that almost almost nobody of the rest of the players have ever hit, seen or often even heard about the mechanic. Should there be a change for nolifers to profit skilling and gaining advantage over the rest than?

 

Wurm is a game.. and many use alts, and they hit the fatigue on their alts? W T *...

 

We're not talking about fun play time... we're talking about work actions in the game.. a sandbox game... your actions reflect to the world around you, the economy, and other people. You having more time.. is cool... but putting too much power in that favorite character of yours should be limited IMO. 

 

How many of the game's day/night cycles go by.. during your grinding session? Wurm is somewhat... realistic + bunch of wogic unexplainables..  how do you explain the way your character work for so long w/o the need for rest or time to recover strength?

 

Edited by Finnn
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I don't even know how to attempt to formulate an answer to the suggestion that we need to make our characters working abilities "realistic" while i'm walking around with 200kg of dirt in my pockets.

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18 hours ago, Nadroj said:

If the issue has to come down to insulting players who find issues with this by calling them nolifers. I would suggest perhaps you might want to rethink whether you're on the side of a fair discussion or not.

 

The "Ad Hominem" fallacy... so classic even the Greeks considered it ancient.

 

Personally I'm for keeping fatigue; however, as demonstrated in the past, its a limit that some can easily hit, especially fulltime miners and diggers. Perhaps extending the period longer, and/or increasing the regen.

 

Even make both related to characteristics?

Edited by Klaa

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I've looked a bit at the fatigue code in WU and found out something...

 

It looks like the system consumes 1 second of fatigue right at the start of any action, then 1 second after each second that the action lasts. So even if your action fails right away (for actions that can fail mid-progress like attaching part) you already loose a second. Actions that are fast will also consume disproportionally more fatigue if you keep spamming them.

 

For example, if you are doing something where each action takes exactly 10 seconds, you will loose 11 seconds of fatigue for each action. Your 8 hours of fatigue regenerated per day will only last 7.2 hours. Not that bad, right?

But if you are spamming actions that last exactly 1 second you will lose 2 seconds of fatigue per action and suddenly those 8 hours will only last for 4 real hours. And 4 hours per day is nowhere near being a nolifer...

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Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words.
I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say.

Spoiler
On 4/27/2017 at 0:43 PM, bdew said:

For example, if you are doing something where each action takes exactly 10 seconds, you will loose 11 seconds of fatigue for each action. Your 8 hours of fatigue regenerated per day will only last 7.2 hours. Not that bad, right? @Finnn: yup

But if you are spamming actions that last exactly 1 second you will lose 2 seconds of fatigue per action and suddenly those 8 hours will only last for 4 real hours. And 4 hours per day is nowhere near being a nolifer...

Most people do not perform 2sec actions tho, and even if somebody pulls a supreme QL90+, 100woa pick/hatchet/shovel... second action, etc.. take more and more time.

1st second when starting an action is ok imo.. you did something.. even if it was by mistake.. you're paying for it with 1 second.. who cares for canceled actions costing 1sec fatigue. Normally a person wouldn't do that often.. and normal person wouldn't rage for that.

 

Even if you do 2-3sec actions... you still have to deal with stamina recovery, drinking, eating, taking breaks.... it's never simply 4 hours. Time between keystrokes could be from miliseconds to several sec depending from what you're doing. Also irl after few hours irl-fatigue punches back and you start taking longer breaks or pauses here and there.

 

Edited by Finnn

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57 minutes ago, bdew said:

But if you are spamming actions that last exactly 1 second you will lose 2 seconds of fatigue per action and suddenly those 8 hours will only last for 4 real hours. And 4 hours per day is nowhere near being a nolifer...

You are able to spam 1 sec actions constantly by 4 hours? ok

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