Posted April 26, 2017 Just now, Nadroj said: While it would be nice to have another way to regen fatigue this still feels to me like the same issue of punishing players for playing the game a lot. Hitting a fatigue wall shouldn't be happening all that often until it's a shared account. Sustaining the effort to hit the fatigue cap and consistently hit it over even a few days pretty much beggars belief unless 1. It's a shared account 2. The person is macroing 3. The person plays a mega-crap ton AND is having whatever resources he needs (food, mats, etc.) supplied to him via alts or other players. Even then, sustaining this sort of gameplay is rough unless there's a medical reason the person needs to play that much. So it shouldn't be used all that much is legitimate (IE case 3) situations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 (edited) As stated above, i feel a big part of this issue is how many people seem to be in complete disbelief that players can legitimately hit the fatigue cap. It's a lot easier to do than people seem to think and it certainly does not require account sharing or macroing, playing a lot sure but why punish players for playing the game they pay premium for the right to play without restrictions on their account? I've experienced hitting the cap several times before and atm a good friend of mine basically hits it every single day and is stuck in foreverfatigue all because he happens to be working hard on grinding his account atm, which just seems realy silly. He logs in every day and has to set skillgain goals not that he is trying to achieve, but that he hopes to achieve before fatigue forces him to log out of wurm. Edited April 26, 2017 by Nadroj 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 I'm no stranger to grinding, but I've never gotten close to hitting the cap (maybe 4 hours left?) For someone consistently hitting the fatigue cap, there's just not that many skills to skill up unless you're aiming for 99 or something absurd in most of the skills. If you're grinding efficiently, hitting 90 in a crafting skill won't take more than a couple of weeks, tops. Another couple weeks to 99. In a few years you're out of skills to grind. Maybe increasing the fatigue cap (but keeping the same rate) be a better solution. Boost it to 40 hours (as opposed to 24). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 52 minutes ago, Hailene said: I'm no stranger to grinding, but I've never gotten close to hitting the cap (maybe 4 hours left?) For someone consistently hitting the fatigue cap, there's just not that many skills to skill up unless you're aiming for 99 or something absurd in most of the skills. If you're grinding efficiently, hitting 90 in a crafting skill won't take more than a couple of weeks, tops. Another couple weeks to 99. In a few years you're out of skills to grind. Maybe increasing the fatigue cap (but keeping the same rate) be a better solution. Boost it to 40 hours (as opposed to 24). You say you know how to grind, yet you are unaware of the time required to take a skill to 99 and beyond, or even believe how people can actually grind harder than you. There is no way anyone will run out of skills to grind in a few years, again your lack of knowledge is showing. You also accuse people of cheating (botting/shared accounts) and having no life, etc etc in which case you are just making assumptions based on your own poor gaming playstyle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 Just now, JakeRivers said: You say you know how to grind, yet you are unaware of the time required to take a skill to 99 and beyond, or even believe how people can actually grind harder than you. I hit 100 blacksmithing on my own. That should answer your questions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 2 minutes ago, Hailene said: I hit 100 blacksmithing on my own. That should answer your questions. Grats, it does not answer any questions at all, since you can't understand how someone can hit the fatigue wall, obviously you are a inefficient skill grinder. Just because you can't do it hit the fatigue cap does not mean other people can't hit it. Take your 100 bs and crawl back under your rock. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, JakeRivers said: Just because you can't do it hit the fatigue cap does not mean other people can't hit it. Boohoo. Just because you don't know how to efficiently set up your game time doesn't mean the system is broken. Learn to play and stop complaining. Edit: On a side note, if you don't understand the difficulty of hitting 100 skill as opposed to something easy to grab like 99, then you really do need to shape up. Edited April 26, 2017 by Hailene Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 I would argue that efficiently setting up your game time is precisely what fatigue punishes people for Hailene. Efficiency is what uses up all your fatigue. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 Now i was actually thinking about posting this on the suggestion forums but since we already do have a discussion going on about the fatigue system as a whole in this thread i might aswell just post it here, and possibly do a smaller post in the suggestion forums later. So first off for everyone who's not really familiar with the system and claims stuff like "even after playing for 18 hours straight i havent gotten to that point. it's actually impossible to reach it and if you do then you must be macroing or doing something complerely wrong" or something similar to this. The fatigue system is a system that has a specific timer that can be anywhere between 0 seconds and 12 hours and counts down from 12 hours. one hour of fatigue is restored every three hours of real time. this timer is reduced only by actual ingame action timers. so if you mainly watch a movie or show while semi-afk playing wurm with rather fast actions, such as imping, digging, creating, speed mining or similar with a limited action queue, you're unlikely to reach it. this however changes if you swap this around and mainly play wurm while watching tv in the background. now if you're also someone who cares about efficiency and getting the most out of your time, you will try to have as little idle time in the game as possible. this is of course a lot easier with very slow actions like grinding mining, but it is also possible with shorter actions. sure, it still requires you to reach over 8 hours of ingame time per day to actually run completely out of fatigue but the free time you have or the ways you play wurm differ from person to person. some people can do it while working, some do not work due to health issues, and some also change the skills they grind depending on circumstances. the rules do allow us certain freedom on longer actions after all. (please read http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/123123-wurm-rules/ for reference and, in case of questions, try to contact the GMs or other staff who will most likely go out of their way to explain specific rules to you. do not try to act first and use "but this guy on forums said i would be allowed to" as an excuse after something bad happens. you, and only you, are responsible for your account) However, there's two main problems this system brings in its current state. The first is the insane inconsistency of the system. What do i mean by inconsistency? Well, first, let's take a look at all the fatigue using actions compared to those that do not actually require fatigue. (please note that these actions were taken from WU, they might not be 100% correct in WO but from experience and some testing about the weirder sounding ones i can claim that these are pretty accurate for actions actually available to players) Using fatigue: Spoiler Sell Tame Plan building Remove plan here Finalize build plan Destroy Cut down Chop up Track Teach Build Mend Stealth Pray Desecrate Dig Mine Mine upwards Mine downwards Create Flatten Farm Harvest Sow Pack Prospect Fish Attach lock Repair Build low wall Build tall wall Build wooden palisade Build wooden fence Build wooden palisade gate Build wooden fence gate Continue building Plant naturally Pick sprout Destroy pavement Improve Repair Practice Preach Forage Botanize Fillet Tunnel Reinforce Cultivate Milk Dredge Build mine door Prune Trap Disarm Breed Build iron fence Build woven fence Build iron fence gate Roof Floor above Floor below Build hatch floor above Build ladder Build wooden parapet Build stone parapet Raise corner Build crude wooden fence Build stone and iron parapet Build low roundpole fence Build high roundpole fence Build crude wooden fence gate Build roundpole fence gate Add to building Remove from building Level Flatten Analyse Build stone fence Build curb Build low rope fence Build high rope fence Build high iron fence Build high iron fence gate Plant flowerbed Plant flower Water plant Vegetables Resources Berries Seeds Herbs Plants Resource Build chain fence Build wooden wall Build wooden window Build wooden door Build wooden double door Build wooden arched wall Build stone wall Build stone window Build stone door Build stone double door Build stone arched wall Build timber framed wall Build timber framed window Build timber framed door Build timber framed double door Build timber framed arched wall Plan bridge Drain Survey Rummage Trim Gather Shear Build plain stone wall Build plain stone window Build plain narrow stone window Build plain stone door Build plain stone double door Build plain stone arched wall Build portcullis Build plain stone portcullis Build plain stone barred wall Build stone portcullis Build wood portcullis Build staircase Plant in center Build timber framed balcony Build timber framed jetty Build decorated stone oriel Build wooden canopy Build wooden wide window Build plain stone oriel Rotate wall Build wide staircase Build right staircase Build left staircase Build clockwise spiral staircase Build counter clockwise spiral staircase Build clockwise spiral staircase with banisters Build counter clockwise spiral staircase with banisters Build wide staircase with right banister Build wide staircase with left banister Build wide staircase with both banisters Spices Build wood left arch Build wood right arch Build wood T arch Build stone left arch Build stone right arch Build stone T arch Build timber framed left arch Build timber framed right arch Build timber framed T arch Build plain stone left arch Build plain stone right arch Build plain stone T arch Build slate brick wall Build slate brick window Build slate brick narrow window Build slate brick door Build slate brick double door Build slate brick arched wall Build slate brick portcullis Build slate brick barred wall Build slate brick oriel Build slate brick left arch Build slate brick right arch Build slate brick T arch Build rounded stone wall Build rounded stone window Build rounded stone narrow window Build rounded stone door Build rounded stone double door Build rounded stone arched wall Build rounded stone portcullis Build rounded stone barred wall Build rounded stone oriel Build rounded stone left arch Build rounded stone right arch Build rounded stone T arch Build pottery brick wall Build pottery brick window Build pottery brick narrow window Build pottery brick door Build pottery brick double door Build pottery brick arched wall Build pottery brick portcullis Build pottery brick barred wall Build pottery brick oriel Build pottery brick left arch Build pottery brick right arch Build pottery brick T arch Build sandstone brick wall Build sandstone brick window Build sandstone brick narrow window Build sandstone brick door Build sandstone brick double door Build sandstone brick arched wall Build sandstone brick portcullis Build sandstone brick barred wall Build sandstone brick oriel Build sandstone brick left arch Build sandstone brick right arch Build sandstone brick T arch Build marble brick wall Build marble brick window Build marble brick narrow window Build marble brick door Build marble brick double door Build marble brick arched wall Build marble brick portcullis Build marble brick barred wall Build marble brick oriel Build marble brick left arch Build marble brick right arch Build marble brick T arch Build slate fence Build slate iron fence Build slate iron fence gate Build rounded stone fence Build rounded stone iron fence Build rounded stone iron fence gate Build pottery fence Build pottery iron fence Build pottery iron fence gate Build sandstone fence Build sandstone iron fence Build sandstone iron fence gate Build marble fence Build marble iron fence Build marble iron fence gate Render wall Swap arch side not using fatigue: Spoiler None Examine Open Wave Drop Disengage Ride Buy Call Read Knock Taste Quit Tell Quaff Dismount Abandon Uncover Cover Unsaddle Lock Saddle Wake Wear Wizkill Find path Legal mode Faith mode Drop dirt Climb Stop climbing Go here Clear orders Attack Stay online Go offline Give Follow Group Ungroup Pour Sip Snuff Crush Pick seeds Rename Add Remove Manage Trade Get coordinates Found settlement Manage citizens Manage guards Manage settings Manage reputations Manage gates Settlement history Area history Invite to join Drag Stop dragging Resize Info Replace No spoon Manage politics Form alliance Destroy structure Spam mode Set price Get price Set data Change kingdom Poll Ask for refreshment Learn Combine Set teleport marker Teleport Protect Push Steal Pick lock Unlock Taunt Learn Shieldbash Lead Stop leading Backstab Recite Rest Kick Attack Listen Burn Butcher Cast Scalp Shoot Shoot quickly Aim at head Aim at face Aim at torso Aim at left arm Aim at right arm Aim at legs String Unstring Shoot Arrow Hide Hang Sit Sleep Sacrifice Stop Pave Fight aggressively Fight normally Defend Destroy fence Disassemble fence Destroy wall Disassemble wall Turn item clockwise Turn item counterclockwise Summon Destroy Pull Eat Drink Shutdown Server Get info Grow Fill Manage player payments Manage player powers Firstaid move move move move move move move move move move move Magranon's shield Vynora's hand Libila's shielding Human's demise Selfhealer's demise Animal's demise Dragon's demise Locate artifact Vessel Rebirth Dominate Charm Circle of cunning Flaming aura Aura of shared pain Wind of ages Opulence Rotting touch Morning fog Mix Treat Lore Become a priest Left Hard Left Normal Left quick Left Hard Left Normal Left Quick Left Hard Left Normal Left Quick Hard Normal Quick Hard Normal Quick Hard Normal Quick Right Hard Right Normal Right Quick Right Hard Right Normal Right Quick Right Hard Right Normal Right Quick High Left Low Right Rent 1 copper Rent 10 copper Rent 1 silver Rent 10 silver No rent Rent Sleep Target Freeze Suck Egg Spy Hatch Embark - commander Embark - passenger Disembark Reimbursements Change terrain Check Send Courier Dark messenger Focus No target Throw Duel Spar Heal Absorb Disband settlement Stop disband Drain coffers Receive instructions Log Take the test Appoint Kingdoms Kingdom history Announce Abdicate Manage Vehicle Moor Raise anchor Manage mine door Rent 10 iron Rent 25 iron Rent 50 iron Sculpt Recharge Economics Manage perimeter Sixth Sense Unhitch Wish Protect Remove protection Count items Meditate Leave path Path leaders Light path Enchant Love effect Increase attack damage Increase structure damage Fear effect Elemental immunity Trap immunity Clean Fill Puppeteer Groom Link Holy Crop Ritual of the Sun Rite of Death Rite of Spring Bearpaws Humiddrizzle Genesis Lifetransfer Frogleap Venom Tornado Ice Pillar Mind Stealer Nimbleness Frost Brand Tentacles Locate Soul Fire Pillar Goat Shape Fire Heart Mass Stamina Phantasms Rotting Gut Weakness Worm Brains Zombie Infestation Pain Rain Fungus Trap Land of the Dead Wild growth Ward Mole Senses Strongwall Excel Reveal Settlement Reveal Creatures Wisdom of Vynora Dispel Spell list Dirt Bloodthirst Web armour Blessings of the dark Lurker in the deep Lurker in the woods Lurker in the dark Wrap Toggle Limit Insert Remove ten Remove fifty Refund GM interface Team up Remove from team Manage team Manage missions Talk Show Step on Get log events Found kingdom Twitter settings Test terrain Brand Shard of Ice Test Vote for ruler removal Challenge ruler Recall home Final Breath Kill Cut down Voice chat options Last gasp Ritual of faith Ritual of rain Ritual of fog Ritual of sun Ritual of healing Ritual of death Ritual of plague Create focus zone Conquer Inscribe Read inscription Manage achievements Karma Weave wall Summon guards Climb up Climb down Destroy floor Destroy roof GM tool Feature Management Threaten Traits Enchants Manage roles Karma Disease Rust Monster Fireball Karma Bolt Karma Missile Karma Continuum Stone skin Karma Slow True Strike Wall of Ice Wall of Fire Wall of Stone Summon Forecast Lightning Mirrored Self Profile Add group Open Pave nearest corner Turn invisible Turn visible Invulnerable Vulnerable Decay Remove View/Update Ticket... Cancel... Respond Resolve... GM... Arch... Dev... On Hold... Take Ticket CM... Ticket Survey... Create recruitment ad ReOpen... Discard Look for village Delete recruitment ad Edit recruitment ad Paint terrain Load cargo Unload cargo Add to crafting window Switch deity Voting Setup Commune Rough cobblestone Round cobblestone Summon Worg Summon Wraith Summon Skeleton Transfer rarity Imbue Sprout trees Setup CA Help Groups Hold As Pile Tangleweave Remove Brand Modify Friends InsideOut Manage Animal Manage Building Manage Large Cart Manage Door Manage Gate Manage Ship Manage Wagon Add to Upkeep Haul up Haul down Manage All Doors Tag Item Summon Tagged Item Use Manage Restrictions Pickup planted item Incinerate Manage Small Cart Manage Item Show Village Plan Search Permissions History of Building History of Door Skip Tutorial Rough in nearest corner Round in nearest corner Push gently Pull gently Toggle CA Status Toggle CM status Player info Sit Sit on the left Sit on the right Stand up Target hostile Plot course Default action Kingdom members Meditation Path Change Path Throw Increase angle Reduce angle Ram First category: crafting. As we can see, basically all crafting related actions are fatigue actions. This includes creating items, improving items, repairing items. Second category: terraforming / resource gathering. The same for these, all fatigue related. digging, mining, tunneling, packing, cultivating, farming related activities and similar. Third category: building. Again, these are all fatigue related actions. building fences, walls, floors as well as repairing them. Fourth category: combat. Any and all combat related actions, both meele combat as well as archery, are non-fatigue actions. Fifth category: priest actions. The only priest related skill that actually uses fatigue is praying. Other than that, be it sacrificing or actually casting spells, they do not require any fatigue and will not lower it. Sixth category: siege mechanics. Using war machines does not require any fatigue either, no matter the machine. same goes for destroying walls, fences, floors by bashing. Seventh category: instantanous actions. These make up pretty much the remaining non-fatigue action list. It contains a variety of actions that you use every day. since they don't have an actual action timer it wouldn't make sense for these to use fatigue, so i will be paying little attention to this category further on. So out of seven, or rather six, different action categories we have three, which most people would probably refer to as PvE/Crafting actions, that are bound to fatigue. Yet on the other hand we have three which are not bound to fatigue. However, there are still some very weird things which do not fit into any of these categories so i will be listing them here. Butchering - you can actually butcher animals for meat even without fatigue. yet you can not fillet meat without fatigue or acquire fish, which i would consider another kind of meat, without fatigue. paving - packing tiles requires fatigue but paving a tile does not. you could cover a whole server in gravel without having to care about fatigue at all, as long as the whole server would consist of packed dirt. grooming - both grooming and shearing sheep work for grinding animal husbandry. yet how come grooming does not require fatigue while shearing sheep does? These weird cases do show quite a bit of inconsistency in the system, at least to me. The second problem i see with the system is that it is outdated. However, i will come back to this in a bit. Next, let's talk about the GOALS of the fatigue system. During my last inquiry if a suggestion about certain changes to the fatigue system would even have a chance i was told that "it works in its current format. It achieves the goals it sets out to do, people just disagree on those goals". So, what even IS the actual goal of the fatigue system. So far i've heard about two main things, but im not sure either of these has ever been official, or if it was it is probably long lost. 1. fatigue is meant as an anti-macro system. 2. it is used to prevent "nolifers" from getting too far ahead of the crowd. And after looking at the differences between the categories of things that actually require fatigue i have come up with a third theory: 3. fatigue was meant to promote pvp. Now let's look at each of these theories a bit closer. The first theory, that fatigue is an anti-macro system. Now this i think is quite plausible. After all it prevents someone from spamming the same actions over and over again for hours, days or even weeks. However, this is also the first theory where i come back to the problem of the fatigue system being outdated. I'm pretty certain that there are more things in the background than just the fatigue system, and i certainly also do hope so. However, a cheat prevention system should not go as far as actually impacting gameplay for human players in a big way, and im pretty sure people will agree with me here. Second theory. It might be a possibility, but if that is one of the actual goals i also have to say that it is outdated. The game has been running for quite a few years and if that might have been working in the past, nowadays it only serves to open up an unbridgable gap between old and new players. They both can spend the same time in the game Third theory. Combat, archery, priest spells and siege weapons do not require fatigue. However, would this be a viable theory just because of that? i'm not too sure considering that you can not mine ammunition or dig down dirtwalls without fatigue and stealthing also actually does require fatigue. Also, the priest spells were not split into pve and pvp spells, or rather offensive and supportive spells. This might have been an oversight, or it might just not be the actual goal we are looking for. However, all of these are after all just THEORIES. So take them with a grain of salt. Now let's instead see if theres any actual problems or advantages that can come from any of these aspects. -One of the first and biggest problems i see is that, if the main purpose is actually to hinder macroing, why do priests require absolute no fatigue for any of their priest-only actions? as long as they would have enough sacrifice materials they could keep going all day, every day. i could understand if the spells would have been split into pve and pvp spells here, where offensive spells do not require fatigue to prevent bad accidents in actual pvp battles, yet pve spells would require fatigue. However, this obviously didnt happen. - Priest-Fighters following specific gods having quite an advantage is another thing i'd like to point out. currently, due to neither combat nor priest activities needing fatigue you can spend all day casting "wisdom of vynora" on yourself and burning down all your fatigue, effectively giving you completely free SB that any person who actually needs said fatigue to keep going can not get. - Priest is often better suited for long grinds of non-improve skills. Due to the reason that after their characteristic nerf has been removed and if you really stick to one grind, you still have the possibility to either cast spells when you run out of fatigue or use their deity-specific bonuses for hunting or others, or burn through your remaining fatigue with "wisdom of vynora" for more efficient fatigue usage and free sb, as long as their priest penalties do not forbid the skill you actually want to grind. So far, so good. However, we are after all asking for the fatigue system to be review and changed in some ways to not hinder those of us who currently are affected by its current state. For this i currently see three easy possibilities to still make use of the current system. Two of which are rather extremes and need a longer time to actually be implemented and one that would probably be a lot faster to bring into the game but have less of an impact too. First, the negative extreme. Change ALL non-instantanous actions to require fatigue. For combat-related actions, have the game substract the time spent in actual combat from the fatigue, for archery the shooting timer along with a slight bonus due to not having to ride up to the enemy, for priests the time they actually spend casting, for siege machinery the time spent using it, be it winching or swinging the ram. BUT THIS SOUNDS CRAZY! yes, it certainly does. however, sometimes consistency comes at a price. currently people claim that it's impossible to even reach the fatigue time. well, i am hopeful that this kind of change would bring more people to support changes to the fatigue system, not in such a negative way, but a positive one instead. Next up, the positive extreme. "Remove" fatigue. And by this i do not mean actually removing the whole system but rather removing the fact that no fatigue disables so many actions. The system can still do all the things it currently does in the background, possibly even still count down the fatigue, yet it just disables the lockout from playing. However, introducing this in a way that still counts down fatigue and just removes the lockout would still impact the "Wisdom of Vynora" spell, since it would still be actively affecting fatigue, and would likely lead to every person using priests to spam the spell on themselves before grinding for free sleep bonus. A better possibility would probably be to remove the actual checks of fatigue along with its reduction so that fatigue remains, yet as a pure ressource for "wisdom of vynora" casts, and at the same time the conversion rate for the spell is rebalanced. Last but not least, the quicker change. Increase the fatigue regeneration while offline (or only when logged out in a bed?) to 1 hour of fatigue every 2 real hours. This would allow people who are currently running out of fatigue or are edging very close on a regular basis to not have to worry about it anymore for the time being. A change to the "Wisdom of Vynora" fatigue:sleep bonus rate should come along with this change. From its current 5 to 1 ratio to 6.5 or 7 to 1 to balance out with the fatigue increase. Looking at these three possible changes that could be made to the system the first one looks pretty bad from a player perspective at least. make life of priests AND fighters/pvpers worse without improving the current situation for those already having trouble with how it currently is at all? However, you can also pair that change with the third possibility which will effectively expand the fatigue system to all skills yet will probably make it unlikely for a human player to encounter trouble with the fatigue cap again, at least on a regular basis. The cap would still remain in place for incredibly long single grind session, however out of those who have complained about the system barely anyone ever encountered it due to this scenario. The second, extreme positive would probably not bring any change to how the current fatigue system works in the background, yet would remove any impact it has on actual gameplay experience. So as you can see, theres a bunch of things in the current fatigue system that i, personally, find very confusing and inconsistent. However, there certainly is a very easy change that could be done to the system that would likely remove most of the problems of those people stuck hitting the cap often, while making absolutely no difference to anyone who never had a problem with it, and would even minimize the chance of them ever experiencing it themselves. There also are more extreme approaches that could be taken, which likely would take more time to be worked out in detail. However, the final decision about which of these solutions could work out the best lies with the developers in the end. TLDR; current system seems to have forgotten all about war machines, being priests and has some very wonky special cases. three suggested changes: either make fatigue affect everyone equally by affecting every single action. remove fatigue check and allow people to continue even without remaining fatigue. increase fatigue regeneration while offline/logged out in a bed. on another note, keep it clean guys, theres no need to devolve into biting each other every other page. i can understand that people claim that they havent encountered the fatigue cap during their time in the game and theres no need to get mad at them, neither is it of any help for them to think they need to babysit those who do encounter it. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 I thoroughly support a boosted regen to fatigue while logged off and/or in a bed. It just makes sense. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 2 minutes ago, Nadroj said: I would argue that efficiently setting up your game time is precisely what fatigue punishes people for Hailene. Efficiency is what uses up all your fatigue. Sort of. It depends on what you're doing exactly (you can't really mix up your time if you want to dig 50,000 clay) but for other things you divide up your time in an equally efficient manner. Say you want to build an underground water way system through a mountain. You could try doing all the things completely in sequence (gather all the sprouts, then cut down all the trees, cut up all the trees...to make support beams, then go ahead and mine out the entire canal at once), but if you break up the sequence of actions between fatigue intensive actions and non-fatigue intensive actions you can stretch your fatigue much further. So you mine for a couple of days and find yourself low on fatigue. So instead of spending 7 hours mining the third day and running out of fatigue, you can do something related to the task but isn't as fatigue intensive...like gathering sprouts, cutting down trees, replanting, etc. Hammering out the mats and building the support beams (or sowing and harvesting crops if you go that way) also is relatively less fatigue intense. This isn't a perfect solution for the player that players 16+ hours every day, but if you're going to be that committed to the game, then having several alts running at the same time should increase your productivity and stretch your fatigue a bit. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` I will agree that the fatigue system isn't perfect. For me, to get rid of the fatigue system I'd need assurance of an anti-bot system that consistently works to weed out botters. Until then, the fatigue system works as a reasonable (if not perfect) way to keep extreme botters in check. Does it hurt some individuals? Yes. Undoubtedly. But these extreme individuals can mostly work around fatigue issues as long as they plan well. Though as a concession, I think boosting maximum fatigue from 24 hours to 40 hours would be a good compromise. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Hailene said: Though as a concession, I think boosting maximum fatigue from 24 hours to 40 hours would be a good compromise. It maxes at 12 hours atm not 24 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 26, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Nadroj said: It maxes at 12 hours atm not 24 Brain fart on my part. My bad. Yeah, 12 hours. With 40 hours, assuming 12 hours of actions a day, that gives you a week and a half of playtime. Bump it up to 14 hours of actions a day and you still have a week's worth of actions. I figure this ought to cover just about anyone. Even people who work two weeks and a get a week off should be okay and students on long breaks should be okay. Edited April 26, 2017 by Hailene Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 The problem seems to be that the fatigue timer doesn't regen fast enough for people who grind skills with long timers. Honestly, I don't think I've ever hit the fatigue timer, but I can see it being possible. You people that do hit the fatigue timer... just wow... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 Yeah that's basically it, anyone who is efficient with skills like digging and mining can easily hit the cap because the timers are so long. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 The question is whether or not the regen rate is too low or if the players are playing in bursts that overwhelm their stockpile of fatigue. Like some people work 2 weeks then have a week off. So those people can widdle down their fatigue over the course of 5-6 days (burning 10-11 hours of fatigue). Or people can also do 15 hours every day for a few days like over a weekend? If that's the case, it's just a matter of increasing the reserve. Or possibly people other people who have more time to play Wurm just do 10+ hours of actions every day? And then that's an issue of regen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 You can spend literally half of every day of your life doing fatigue draining actions in wurm. People are hitting this limit consistently. Spending 12 hours of every day doing actions only. This is a bad thing though to the wurm community. Not because spending 3/4s of your waking hours in wurm is unhealthy mentally and emotionally (likely physically as well) but because you can't spend 100% of your time in wurm. I bet this'll get decried as toxic but for once in my life I actually kind of feel sad for the wurm community. If I ever hit fatigue I'll probably go for a stroll and reconsider my life. Or if I have no operating legs Ill have my nurse wheel me to the porch so I can cry in the fresh air. I mean just hitting fatigue to begin with takes what, almost a full 24hrs of grinding? More if you sleep 8 hours? I only knew one guy who would hit fatigue consistently and people considered him a madman a decade ago for doing so 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 At the risk of repeating myself, the discussion isn't about whether or not you're capable of believing that players who hit this cap arn't all botters and macroers. Calling everyone that is pointless, insulting and demonstrably incorrect. It's not an opinion that people can and do hit the cap by just playing the game within the rules, it's fact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 I'm fairly sure "making players maintain a healthy game/life balance" was never a goal - can anyone point to an official post stating this was what the design intention was? I'd also say that the reason all the combat related skills are non-fatigue depenant is so that PvP'ers, getting raided, can still defend themselves even when they've ground away all their fatigue; it's a way to make fatigue not prevent PvP defence. The system is not 'insanely inconsistent' (unless you have a really low sanity bar) - there are a few cases where it's not quite right (butchering/filleting, shearing/grooming), which are probably bugs. Instead of a wall of text here, you should make a post with those specific points in the server bugs forum, so the devs can look at it. It would be interesting to have some official indication of what exactly fatigue is supposed to accomplish. So far, all there's been here is a bunch of player speculation, then argument about that speculation. Retrograde / Budda / Keenan / anyone else official, feel free to chime in here... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 (edited) Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words. I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say. Spoiler It is a game mechanic tho, and only 5-10 people(same names) feel the need for a change, that almost almost nobody of the rest of the players have ever hit, seen or often even heard about the mechanic. Should there be a change for nolifers to profit skilling and gaining advantage over the rest than? Wurm is a game.. and many use alts, and they hit the fatigue on their alts? W T *... We're not talking about fun play time... we're talking about work actions in the game.. a sandbox game... your actions reflect to the world around you, the economy, and other people. You having more time.. is cool... but putting too much power in that favorite character of yours should be limited IMO. How many of the game's day/night cycles go by.. during your grinding session? Wurm is somewhat... realistic + bunch of wogic unexplainables.. how do you explain the way your character work for so long w/o the need for rest or time to recover strength? Edited June 3, 2017 by Finnn 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 I don't even know how to attempt to formulate an answer to the suggestion that we need to make our characters working abilities "realistic" while i'm walking around with 200kg of dirt in my pockets. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, Nadroj said: If the issue has to come down to insulting players who find issues with this by calling them nolifers. I would suggest perhaps you might want to rethink whether you're on the side of a fair discussion or not. The "Ad Hominem" fallacy... so classic even the Greeks considered it ancient. Personally I'm for keeping fatigue; however, as demonstrated in the past, its a limit that some can easily hit, especially fulltime miners and diggers. Perhaps extending the period longer, and/or increasing the regen. Even make both related to characteristics? Edited April 27, 2017 by Klaa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 I've looked a bit at the fatigue code in WU and found out something... It looks like the system consumes 1 second of fatigue right at the start of any action, then 1 second after each second that the action lasts. So even if your action fails right away (for actions that can fail mid-progress like attaching part) you already loose a second. Actions that are fast will also consume disproportionally more fatigue if you keep spamming them. For example, if you are doing something where each action takes exactly 10 seconds, you will loose 11 seconds of fatigue for each action. Your 8 hours of fatigue regenerated per day will only last 7.2 hours. Not that bad, right? But if you are spamming actions that last exactly 1 second you will lose 2 seconds of fatigue per action and suddenly those 8 hours will only last for 4 real hours. And 4 hours per day is nowhere near being a nolifer... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 (edited) Some of my posts in this and other topics were censored/or trimmed/ by mods without any indication for that, I do not stand behind the remaining words. I'll politely ask you to skip this post and not read it, as whatever words and thought have been spared are not what I had to say. Spoiler On 4/27/2017 at 0:43 PM, bdew said: For example, if you are doing something where each action takes exactly 10 seconds, you will loose 11 seconds of fatigue for each action. Your 8 hours of fatigue regenerated per day will only last 7.2 hours. Not that bad, right? @Finnn: yup But if you are spamming actions that last exactly 1 second you will lose 2 seconds of fatigue per action and suddenly those 8 hours will only last for 4 real hours. And 4 hours per day is nowhere near being a nolifer... Most people do not perform 2sec actions tho, and even if somebody pulls a supreme QL90+, 100woa pick/hatchet/shovel... second action, etc.. take more and more time. 1st second when starting an action is ok imo.. you did something.. even if it was by mistake.. you're paying for it with 1 second.. who cares for canceled actions costing 1sec fatigue. Normally a person wouldn't do that often.. and normal person wouldn't rage for that. Even if you do 2-3sec actions... you still have to deal with stamina recovery, drinking, eating, taking breaks.... it's never simply 4 hours. Time between keystrokes could be from miliseconds to several sec depending from what you're doing. Also irl after few hours irl-fatigue punches back and you start taking longer breaks or pauses here and there. Edited June 3, 2017 by Finnn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 27, 2017 57 minutes ago, bdew said: But if you are spamming actions that last exactly 1 second you will lose 2 seconds of fatigue per action and suddenly those 8 hours will only last for 4 real hours. And 4 hours per day is nowhere near being a nolifer... You are able to spam 1 sec actions constantly by 4 hours? ok 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites