Jenshiye

RNG + combat next priorities, please.

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I think most veterans and newbies alike get annoyed with the RNG, the "50% chance" is not 50%.

Combat mechanics are basically Progress Quest, which affects both PVP and PVE enjoyment of the game.

 

My two friends have joined Wurm and they both enjoy PVP in other games, we play Counter Strike, EVE and such together but when they realised what the combat is like in Wurm, they immediately went, "Meh, re-rolling to a PVE server."

 

P.S. After that - please make it so that Rare flash only happens if you succeed.

 

Edit: To add to the RNG thing. It is really annoying to keep getting really low enchantments when you have 90+ channelling or keep making QL1 items. If you have 90 skill that should at least let you start off with 50-60 QL items.

(Imagine a great artist has to draw a kids drawing of a house before they can keep on painting over it until they achieve their house on the prairies enchanting piece. It is absurd to have a 1%-25% roll when you have put so much into grinding a skill.)

 

Edit 2: While we are fundamental changes; how about parcelling land? That way you can give permission to a village for an area of tiles and then there would be less drama and probably more people sharing a village. Larger deeds with more people on them.

 

Edit3: This old thread has some stuff that might make combat a little deeper at least.

Edited by Jenshiye

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i can only dream that a combat rework would happen in my lifetime

 

and im 20

Edited by Propheteer

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40 minutes ago, Propheteer said:

i can only dream that a combat rework would happen in my lifetime

 

and im 20

I have little hope. I am only back because one of my friends wanted to buy Wurm Unlimited then realised they would have hosting problems for us. (All of us have terrible upload speeds)

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The loading onto carts and ships thing ... it makes starting interesting.

They have to get a house nailed down just to store their forge and oven. :lol:

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How do you improve RNG? 50% IS 50%, it's just human nature to focus on the negatives (it's a survival thing)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias

 

Love to see some changes to combat, but i don't think it'll be twitch style combat anytime soon, what would improve it in general? I'm thinking the current system of auto regular swings with keybinds for heavier slower swings, and faster weaker swings, sort of like how MMO's work with cooldowns on attack skills

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It's something that should be considered in a future update, I'm sure the devs are aware. The system is dated and I think most will agree, but combat reworks need to be done carefully because they can totally make people annoyed or happy.

 

Going to use Runescape as an example here, they've went through a ton of iterations and decided to just have all sorts of combat modes available, balance wise that might be a impossible feat in Wurm.

 

It's funny also more people play Old School Runescape to Runescape 3 because, well that game was fun and Rs3 combat system is kind of to blame for a lot of people quitting.

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45 minutes ago, Sunstrike said:

How do you improve RNG? 50% IS 50%, it's just human nature to focus on the negatives (it's a survival thing)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias

 

Love to see some changes to combat, but i don't think it'll be twitch style combat anytime soon, what would improve it in general? I'm thinking the current system of auto regular swings with keybinds for heavier slower swings, and faster weaker swings, sort of like how MMO's work with cooldowns on attack skills

 

Wurm RNG Doesn't work. You can achieve 100% Success rate and still fail. (A lot too)

 

Also, The calculations don't work properly. 50% Isn't 50% in wurm, Its more like 30%/40% Success rate. All of it is this way, You can conduct several tests out of a 1000 actions with 50% Success rate and not even hit 300 success's. This is what is broken with wurm, Has been for a long time. 

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18 minutes ago, akaedis said:

 

Wurm RNG Doesn't work. You can achieve 100% Success rate and still fail. (A lot too)

 

Also, The calculations don't work properly. 50% Isn't 50% in wurm, Its more like 30%/40% Success rate. All of it is this way, You can conduct several tests out of a 1000 actions with 50% Success rate and not even hit 300 success's. This is what is broken with wurm, Has been for a long time. 

100% is actually 99.995, considering wurms rng rolls out very long decimals there's still a lot of failure, it's not integer based.

 

Is there a fault in the code or is it just "experience"

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Does anyone have a single verified test that calls out a broken random number generator process or are you all happy to continue saying it's broken based on rumors and your feelings? Data people, data!

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5 hours ago, Chakron said:

Does anyone have a single verified test that calls out a broken random number generator process or are you all happy to continue saying it's broken based on rumors and your feelings? Data people, data!

dunno if the % it displays is broken or something but when I was grinding locksmithing I had 95% chance to make lockpicks but was still constantly failing

 

I did a number of quick tests of creating a couple of hundred lockpicks (500-1000ish) and it was constantly sitting at around 60-70% chance to success

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Wurm's probability formulas draw their seeds from one of the renown and built-in random functions included in the Java library, and I find it hard to believe they've managed to fudge it up. I've done tests in the past of the probability vs. the outcome of the products and it's always been true to theory in those cases. I never did any detailed listing of the results but as I recall the deviation was never more than a percentage in either direction and the larger amount of items the less it deviated (a minimum sample of 30 is needed in order to get a statistically correct test).

 

Not sure of what to say about the combat to be honest... You stare at things, they die. You die. Seems to be the extent of it regardless of how many kneejerk changes they make. :/

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1. In my experience with fighting trolls it does seem RNG has a big effect on a fight. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to have less RNG. Image a system where all monsters are essentially a number and the player is another number. If the player's number is higher she always wins. A troll is an 8 and the player must have a 9 to win. Once the player has 9 he will never lose to a troll. Currently if your CR is vastly higher victory is pretty much assured. 

 

2. Make it less RNG doesn't turn Wurm into a twitch style game. Wurm, if you do this, please give us a way to keep fighting the old way! If someone thinks that players should be rewarded for superior button pushing, tell them their reward is the opportunity to play the game how they want. I suck at button pushing and don't want to play twitch style combat.

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15 minutes ago, joedobo said:

1. In my experience with fighting trolls it does seem RNG has a big effect on a fight. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to have less RNG. Image a system where all monsters are essentially a number and the player is another number. If the player's number is higher she always wins. A troll is an 8 and the player must have a 9 to win. Once the player has 9 he will never lose to a troll. Currently if your CR is vastly higher victory is pretty much assured. 

 

2. Make it less RNG doesn't turn Wurm into a twitch style game. Wurm, if you do this, please give us a way to keep fighting the old way! If someone thinks that players should be rewarded for superior button pushing, tell them their reward is the opportunity to play the game how they want. I suck at button pushing and don't want to play twitch style combat.

That also goes otherwise around, if player is 4, then (s)he can never win a fight with a troll, because troll is 8. Randomness is, what makes unexpected things happen.. both ways. And IMO it spices things up.

Edited by rixk

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there totally right go ahead and do something on your tries so often you'll have 50% odds of success yet it takes you three tries to get it..it should cover both angles the chance of each one and the chance out of three tries..or 4 or whatever it happens to be..

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59 minutes ago, Psalamon said:

there totally right go ahead and do something on your tries so often you'll have 50% odds of success yet it takes you three tries to get it..

 

How is this wrong? If you have a 50% chance of success, then there's a 25% chance you'll fail twice in a row. That's pretty common.

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On 04/11/2016 at 6:12 PM, Ostentatio said:

 

How is this wrong?

Perhaps because it was created over a decade ago and probably wasn't quantified using nonparametric statistics  and more specifically a X2 distribution?

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I honestly don't think combat is that bad. As a new player it's hard for sure to get used to but if you stick around it let my enough and when you are in your first real push and pull battle you come to realize that if the broken parts of combat were fixed that it would actually be a pretty great system. 

 

There seems to be a pretty large gap in armor types for newer players, while not impossible to get some good armor it looks to be plate being the only viable option. It's good for protection but the imbalances of speed vs other armor it seems it does not have a place for open world combat vs some rich players in dragon or drake. 

 

It it also looks like the veterans only use a 2 hander with very limited consequences. That being a huge axe but what about all the other weapons?

 

The combat after you give it a real try and part of a real fight has a certain spark and you can see that your actions can help change the tide but there seems to be more balance issues that hold back the full potential. 

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On 10/31/2016 at 0:00 AM, Jenshiye said:

Combat mechanics are basically Progress Quest

Please, watching the combat in Progress Quest is somewhat entertaining. I had to re-roll, and now my Talking Pony is a quarter towards level 74, and I'm currently working on the anvil delivery quest in act 26.

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I love Wurm, but the combat in this game is the most boring I've ever played in any other game I have played in the past 30 years.  This game needs to go from NES to SNES (or even N64 and go full 3d).  Rift is super boring, but I do it for mats.

 

I understand Wurm is a grind, but fighting should be the only Non-Grind thing in Wurm and bring a lot more enjoyment than just clicking attack and then focus.  Oh ya make sure you move a little above the other person/animal.  Hmmm...what else to do when fighting, but wait and hope they don't have more fighting or weapon skill than you.

 

I guess it's okay for PvE since everything else is a stand there and grind, but for PvP........ :( (sad)

Sucks to play PvP to know you will never ever ever ever beat certain people because of their skill level in game.

 

For example WoW PvP was about if someone has better gear than you then you will probably die.  But I've gotten so good at PvP in WoW (very long time ago) that I could beat advanced players while in weaker gear and the people feared my name not because of skill or gear, but because of what I could do to them in a fight regardless of their printed skill level.

 

Seems like you have to be a priest if you want to do something besides wait and slash during a fight or have high weapon skill to do some cheezy finishers.

Edited by nicedreams

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There is some argument for the combat on PVP servers being more about strategy, land control and such rather than hand to hand combat tactics.
 

Quote

 

[18:54:53] <Ecrir> probably. I'd likely be more interested in PvE combat if it was more interactive, even if it only played like combat in Morrowind (which isn't that much better to be honest)

[18:57:32] <Ecrir> to be honest I don't think formations are the problem. It's more that combat is hardly interactive. No active attacking and active blocking, movement doesn't affect what kind of attacks you do, etc

[19:01:04] <Ecrir> I'm hoping they will go with something in the middle. Morrowind had a nice system, just lacking active block

[19:01:43] <Ecrir> the main annoyance for many in morrowind was that hits were decided by rng. So when you swing at an enemy and it's close enough that it can hit then rng decides if it is actually a hit

[19:02:28] <Ecrir> visually it looked like your swing hit, even when it missed. The lack of blood and the hit sound effect was the main way to know that you missed

[19:03:20] <Ecrir> so in essence it was a system based on the skills of your character, with some active control mixed in. Moving sideways would also give different attacks then moving forward or backward

[19:03:57] <Ecrir> last time I played that game I just installed a mod which made it so you always hit (same for enemies of course), and instead the damage was based on character skill

[19:04:22] <Ecrir> worked well enough, but made it a lot easier to get yourself killed

 

 

Edited by Jenshiye

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Quote

[19:05:06] <Kurgan> i like how combat works in wurm
[19:05:11] <Jenshae> Even CS:GO has some spray RNG but the RNG is much lower than Wurm
[19:06:04] <Jenshae> Wurm was conceptualised as a PVP game. It hasn't materialised and Rolf might push something forward that would bring that to fruition.
[19:07:18] <Kurgan> i don't see pvp ever catching on in wurm without some major changes, not just to combat
[19:07:41] <Jenshae> Examples?
[19:08:49] <Kurgan> for starters i would make the pvp servers at least the size of xanadu. chaos is way too small, especially if you get more players in the world
[19:09:28] <Jenshae> Slower logistics so that scout homes can warn main villages?
[19:10:58] <Kurgan> it is about slower logistics but also massive kingdom crushing raids would actually require an investment of time and planning, not just have enough people online
[19:13:36] <Kurgan> there are also major loopholes in attacking deeds without combat. i have spent whole days catapulting deeds to rubble with absolutely no reproccussions because catapult damage doesnt set off alarms
[19:15:38] <Jenshae> Would an IRC addon be good?
[19:16:01] <Jenshae> So like a channel ping if walls are attacked? Then people can not play the game but know when action is happening?
[19:17:34] <Kurgan> u used to have my deed linked to twitter. stepping foot on the deed raises alarms that show up on twitter. catapulting a deed to dust does not
[19:17:48] <Kurgan> i used to*
[19:18:20] <Jenshae> IRC used right is more social and the chat already integrates into the game.

 

More from the discussion.


 

Quote

 

[19:23:36] <Jenshae> Felled trees should be able to be added to build menu

[19:23:46] <Jenshae> Hewing a mast on the ground should be possible.

[19:27:32] <Kurgan> i agree, that would be nice

[19:27:59] <Kurgan> carrying a whole tree seems odd to me

[19:30:44] <Jenshae> The tree thing should be as easy as some copy and pasting then altering the code to fit, since adding world objects to the build menu already happens

 

 

Edited by Jenshiye

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Have all the people who get annoyed by the fundamental flaws quit already?

 

There is not much dissent or agreement. Seems only apathy or complacency remain?

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