DesolationV4 - Evolution - Epoch 3

[Scuffed 27]

   

[Hakameda 75]

2 minutes ago, JockII said:

[06:46:23] The venerable fat green dragon has been slain.

 

[06:46:23] Rokk mauls The venerable fat green dragon extremely hard in the stomach and irritates it.

 

[07:53:56] You are currently using the title  [Cheater].

 

 

[Scuffed 27]

too big pogchamp

[Zaramoth 66]

2 minutes ago, Hakameda said:

Seems awfully defensive for something that's legit and you want to keep secret cause it would probably get fixed

 

 

So...  what, if your town found out the best skill or method to grinding a certain characteristic or making a certain desired item, not an exploit just the best option available, you would freely share that information with everyone? I dont know if you've every actually played wurm online but that whole game was about getting ahead of everyone else. Just because we know something you don't doesn't mean we are hacking. Do you consider your superiors at the workplace cheaters because they have more experience or higher education?

[JockII 338]

2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Think you derped, wasnt intended by nappy sure,  "exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, gamesystem, rates, hit boxes, or speed"  

of which pushing a bsb isnt considered a exploit :S

 

 

your silly, GameSystem covers all aspects of the game bud

 

 

[Hakameda 75]

 

[JockII 338]

Maybe if you guys spent less time whining on the forums and rage quitting on a daily basis you could learn the game mechanics.

[Thunderstruck 55]

[Hakameda 75]

So it's intended that you can kill a dragon with a few people with 25 fs and studded armor. I guess those dragon slaying events are a sham

[JockII 338]

Just now, Hakameda said:

So it's intended that you can kill a dragon with a few people with 25 fs and studded armor. I guess those dragon slaying events are a sham

Please learn the differences between dragon strength on wurm U and Wurm O.

 

Just to point out we used large mauls but could easy to hit with medium mauls. Not something you can do in Wurm Online. Once again, less whining and complaining more learning the game mechanics.

[Iberis 856]

Guys let's not spam the forums, it's not good for the server. Best to bring forward any issues with Nappy via support tickets. Posting any more on here is just detrimental to the server and won't change anything.

[Propheteer 7,139]

honestly should revive the deso forums

 

its pretty annoying seeing individual kingdom recruitment threads advertised as servers

 

 

server is still pretty nice to play on and would recommend to anyone interested in WU

 

p.s. im still the best ever.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Propheteer

[Xyp 273]

First off I am not saying they exploited. I just want to give some insight due to it being said that WU dragons are different than WO dragons.

 

WU Green Dragon unmodified has a natural armour of 0.1F, lower numbers are more defensive. Fully tested 0.01F is virtually unhittable 0.001F is lady of the lake, which is unhittable for all intents and purposes. I had a group of 20 people and a couple of GM's attacking something I had made for an event once with 0.05F (half of 0.1F) and IF an attack did land, it either glanced or did insignificant damage to move the health bar. Most Uniques in WO (asside from troll king and goblin leader) have 0.1F natural armour. So hitting uniques of any kind with 40-50ql weapons, with no demise of the appropriate type, and 25FS seems a bit...odd. However I do not know everything about Wurm and will not pretend to.

After looking over the code one thing I thought at first was incorrect. Green Dragons do not have the type of 18 (C_TYPE_REGENERATING) so my first theory of it would regenerate faster than you could damage would be wrong.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Xyp

[JockII 338]

6 minutes ago, Xyp said:

First off I am not saying they exploited. I just want to give some insight due to it being said that WU dragons are different than WO dragons.

 

WU Green Dragon unmodified has a natural armour of 0.1F, lower numbers are more defensive. Fully tested 0.01F is virtually unhittable 0.001F is lady of the lake, which is unhittable for all intents and purposes. I had a group of 20 people and a couple of GM's attacking something I had made for an event once with 0.05F (half of 0.1F) and IF an attack did land, it either glanced or did insignificant damage to move the health bar. Most Uniques in WO (asside from troll king and goblin leader) have 0.1F natural armour. So hitting uniques of any kind with 40-50ql weapons, with no demise of the appropriate type, and 25FS seems a bit...odd. However I do not know everything about Wurm and will not pretend to.

After looking over the code one thing I thought at first was incorrect. Green Dragons do not have the type of 18 (C_TYPE_REGENERATING) so my first theory of it would regenerate faster than you could damage would be wrong.

6

Glad someone looked into numbers to look at how we actually did it. However, your numbers state that every Unique is just as tanky on WU as WO. I know for a fact this is not true, for 1 you can hit all but 1 of the dragons with medium weapons, something that is impossible on WO. We were hitting the dragon for 

 

[06:46:23] Rokk mauls The venerable fat green dragon extremely hard in the stomach and irritates it

[06:45:49] You maul The venerable fat green dragon extremely hard in the stomach and irritate it.

 

Often 0.5-1.5 damage a hit and yes the dragon does regen nearly insignificant late game but it really slowed us down. It took us 5 hours in total.

 

Later in the game you can easy SOLO dragons in WU with medium weapons and shield.

 

There are only 3 Uniques in WU I deem Impossible for a small group to do : kyclops, red dragon and troll king (they seem to have full reductions).

 

The first time we fought the black dragon on WU (me and zara) we pretty much accidently killed it.(sub 70fs and mediocre gear).

 

It would be more than easy for someone to SPAM(5-10) (zero fs)alts and shod club any of  the other Uniques to death. You are all more than welcome to try.

 

By no means was this slaying deathless or easy. I did state several times on ts and to nappy directly that it could be done, including with zero fs people and just shod clubs. i stated the minimum i would need is 5 (we did use 5 one was not recorded) for this early in the game. Many a time have me and Zaramoth duo and soloed dragons on other servers, patience, practice and understanding how the mechanics of the game works.

 

 

[Xyp 273]

Kyklops has a higher natural armour

 

CreatureTemplate temp = CreatureTemplateFactory.getInstance().createCreatureTemplate(id, name, longDesc,
                "model.creature.humanoid.kyklops", types, 5, skills, 20, 0, 570, 200, 80, "sound.death.giant",
                "sound.death.giant", "sound.combat.hit.giant", "sound.combat.hit.giant", 0.015F, 26.0F, 30.0F, 0.0F,
                0.0F, 0.0F, 1.8F, 1800, new int[] { 308, 310, 868, 867 }, 40, 99);
 

the 0.015F is the natural armour.

 

Trapping something inside a mine door and hopping is exploiting, the fact that WO doesn't enforce it does not mean other admins may not enforce this, just fair warning if that is the method you used.

[Nappy 1,369]

I will investigate it and as mentioned before, determine if there are things that need to be changed as a result.

 

Lots of times on DesV3 I would hear about an exploit, would investigate, and would find out that there was a problem in the WU code that lead to undesirable behaviour for a PVP server. Sometimes I would also find an exploit in use.

 

In the meantime, please get back to enjoying the server.

[Xyp 273]

Nappy I think a simple fix would be to increase the natural armour of dragons and give them type 18 (the time it takes to do damage like this it would regenerate faster).

[Nappy 1,369]

10 hours ago, Tauceti said:

In what ways do you think work on the home islands will be most useful?

 

Right now I feel like me and maybe other people that do stay and aren't actively pvping aren't really liked and considered dead weight and useless.

 

I know on normal wurm people that craft and such are more useful since they spend more time doing time consuming activities like making a ton of bricks or having really high crafting skills.

 

My worry is that with the skill level cap skill gain increase and increased action timer gathering things needed for pvp won't be a big deal at all and most of the people pvping will very easily be able to quickly provide everything for themselves, making them not even consider the help from people on the home islands.

 

I don't want to release the complete details now because things will be revealed as Epochs advance. An example that could be added to the game at some point (to give us the ability to discuss this here and now), would be the concept that well fed troops fight better. So suppose there was someway that a home island farmer could contribute their "crop" to the war effort. Perhaps the crop being added would give a short term buff to the kingdom's fighting strength, maybe with a very small CR buff or something of that nature. At the same time the crop would need to be farmed in the homeland and if it worked out there would have to be some way that the enemy could intercept or even "steal" the process.

 

Once we have the concept above it's not that much further to expand the process to potentially including weapons, tools etc that would traditionally be made much higher quality away from the stresses of the front line combat areas where things are perhaps created rough and dirty under war conditions. Perhaps better horses can be bred in the relative safely of the home islands when contrasted with the riskier front-line areas.

 

All of these things could lead to a decision by the enemy to raid the home islands (subject to the in-and-out raiding rule of course) while also force the combat forces to consider the importance of defending the home island as well. Instead of having the division in modern WO where the warrior class and the non-warrior classes are different/separate etc, you will have a kingdom where it really does matter how well the two groups in the kingdom work together. Only a foolish combat group would allow the home islands to be undefended.

 

Transporting the better weapons and tools to the front lines also means a definite risk of an enemy intercept so another bit of depth is added to the game. Don't forget, there is no way to mail stuff on Desolation, so you have to actually transport everything either in your inventory or inside a ship/cart/wagon.

 

Until the changes are more visible and more pronounced unfortunately people will continue to act like they would in WO where the home islands have little to no importance. Bear with it for now, rest assured the plan is to give the home islands a far greater purpose and importance.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Nappy

[Nappy 1,369]

6 hours ago, Hakameda said:

So it's intended that you can kill a dragon with a few people with 25 fs and studded armor. I guess those dragon slaying events are a sham

Was thinking about this on the drive in to work today. It sounds crazy but it might actually be true.

 

Setting goals for Epoch 1 advance was a challenge because of the unknown around how many would be playing on a server. Too few players and a target goal could seem impossible. Lots of players and the goal could seem like too easy.

 

Setting dragon intensity would be a similar problem for the WU developers. Think about it, on one hand they have to make it killable for people on single people servers because uniques spawn in on their own. On the other extreme they need to have some toughness to give a challenge for larger groups. If they believed servers would be relatively small in terms of population (and not big, as in rivalling WO server populations) then they would naturally have gone for easier to kill dragons.

 

If this is all it is (I will investigate I promise) then the solution is to make the uniques harder to kill, a mod in other words.

[Iberis 856]

I think that keeping uniques the way they are might actually be more beneficial to the server than making them stronger, I'll explain.

 

JK is currently the most dominant group on the server, but what about Hots or MR? Would they have the same strength in numbers compared to JK when fighting uniques? It's not just about fighting the uniques and slaying them. It is also about which team can locate or even trap a unique first. When a new unique spawns the various teams are likely to go out scouting and hunting for its location. What happens if a smaller kingdom like MR happens to find a Drake on their home island (just as an example) but you can buffed them to be stronger. Before the change the smaller team might have been able to kill it but now that it is stronger they cannot kill it before a larger team like JK arrives.

 

Making uniques stronger will only favour the strongest team. I personally feel that it should be more about the hunt and the race to find it first then the kill itself.

[Nappy 1,369]

@Iberis Excellent points and will need to be part of the design of the mod. To be honest my real concern is around the scale and other items they bring into the game when they die. For earlier epochs that could be a problem, something more to be considered when we design a solution.

 

The thing about strength is on a server where maximum possible fight skill is 25, body strength is capped at 25, huge axes cannot be crafted and weapons can only be imped to around 40 - 45 ql, the fact that four players can take down a dragon in five hours might be a little too easy. Then again we are talking about five hours of fighting, that's a lot of effort too.

 

Lots of thinking to do.

[Nappy 1,369]

http://mizments.com/the-slowest-boat-heist-in-history/

 

[Zaramoth 66]

Something I had mentioned to jock numerous times while we were doing this was, it's a good thing we don't have to worry about locate soul.  

 

We were there for 5 hours.  if at any point BL had priests locating us they could've done something about it by either contesting the dragon or setting up to fight us after.  they didn't have this opportunity because there's no way to tell where anyone is atm.

[Nappy 1,369]

59 minutes ago, Zaramoth said:

Something I had mentioned to jock numerous times while we were doing this was, it's a good thing we don't have to worry about locate soul.  

 

We were there for 5 hours.  if at any point BL had priests locating us they could've done something about it by either contesting the dragon or setting up to fight us after.  they didn't have this opportunity because there's no way to tell where anyone is atm.

Interesting point however I will give an alternative to consider.

 

If we are in the time before locate soul then we likely have to rely on the non-faith based alternatives that were used for centuries in real life to find the enemy. They called it "recon" and it involved actual search parties going out in advance of main forces to locate and shadow the enemy. Of course these recon troops had a dangerous job and it was very possible for them to be isolated, trapped and destroyed. Of course this recon concept would make the potential of surprise PVP a lot higher.

 

Alternatively while the enemy was preoccupied with fighting the dragon, there was also the opportunity to attack a main base and is so doing force them to make a decision to give up fighting the dragon or to not defend their base as efficiently with four main fighters missing.

 

Both rely on getting hidden eyes on the enemy so that you can use tactics accordingly. Stealth should now be available in Epoch 2 I believe. To have these options available requires kingdoms to decide to have recon or border patrols that keep an eye out, regularily, for enemy movements.

 

In DesolationV4 the absence of something we are used to having also opens up an opportunity to do something differently and in so doing the game changes.

[Hakameda 75]

Had an interesting idea, Deeds that could also be leveled up. Say you start with an Outpost, and with 3 houses and a few roads it becomes a hamlet. At each increase the max size of the deed increases, Number of guards, tax rate (upkeep) and the bash resistance of the deed increases with there being a max cap of the deed on the hota island but the home island can have up to a capitol class city, Perhaps bonuses that can be gained from working/being at the capitol city. Increased Creation rate of items,or reduced difficulty on imping, Increased improve timer, Better spell casts? But if you leave the capitol you lose your bonuses on crafting but get a fighting buff for a day or two while you are on hota island or something

 

Would also make smaller deeds easier to bash but give more strength to big deeds

Edited November 8, 2016 by Hakameda