Animal husbandry annoyances

[Rathgar 959]

41 minutes ago, rixk said:

40 seconds mating timer... roughly once during week per female is needlessly tedious? Come on..

And for the record, I suggested her to find a less tedious activity, something which gives her positive emotions, instead of frustration, which AH obviously does give her.

But yeah, if there isn't any activity in game, which can entertain her.. it is time to move on(in many cases it is simply caused by burnout).. Or what would you suggest? Let devs redesign whole game, just so burned out person would feel enjoyment again(nothing personal here)?

 Actually yes, just like they are redesigning cooking, and they oftenly focus on different parts of the game to make them more engaging, I think animal Husbandry and animal related activities could use an overhaul to make it a bit more interactive and iron out a bunch of incosistencies and problems that have acumulated from just doing emergency fixes to the system for so long, without a proper in depth analysis of the activities as a whole.

 

Breeding and keeping animals is a huge atraction factor for many games, including Wurm, instead of asking people to do something else, or move on, why not take a good look at it, and see how it could be made less of a punishment, and more of a game.

[rixk 830]

There are plenty of people, who actually do enjoy current mechanic. For me it makes sense:

You want to have new animals, you go out and breed the animals. You want the skill, you groom the animals. You want to breed aggressive animals, you also need to tame first. If you don't want to get beat up, you need good armor and/or some fighting skill too.

 

Which part do you consider as punishment here? 40 second breeding timer? That you have to wait until animal gives birth? Or that you have to actually wait, until the animal grows up?

[Mordraug 2,542]

"I enjoy the random gestation times on mammals" said no breeder ever.

 

Standardizing them per species to a much smaller range would be a start, and not exactly a game-wide recode.

 

The average gestation length in the mare ranges from 320 to 362 days; most mares will foal within 330-345 days of successful breeding.  Meaning (minimumtime) up to (minimumtime + 12%).  So "6-10 (irl) days" is a much wider range than that... 6 day min, 8 day max would make more sense for horses, for example.

 

(((Since cooking's getting boosted, incidentally)))

Chickens SHOULD lay every (ingame) day .. would reduce the need to have tons, and if bred with a rooster then lay the next 2-4 eggs as "fertile egg" instead with say... a 50% chance of hatching.

 

Pigs tend to produce large litters in a relatively short period of time. A sow stays pregnant an average of 114 days, although it's not uncommon for pigs to lose their babies before they are born, or have one or more stillborn piglets.  This makes way for pigs to have multiple piglets with a gestation time of 2-3 irl days and room to RNG the amount of piglets from 2-8.  No need to keep millions, breed 'em as you need 'em.

 

Cows are about 10 months with a +/- 10 day difference according to cow age, so about an irl day less than horses in terms of WO.

 

Code in the stuff I mentioned and tie it to cooking, the 40 second breeding timers become an issue quickly.

 

By the way, being able to better plan birthing times in one's herd does ultimately reduce the need for hoarding them by the million.  Incidentally the traits' RNG could be softened a bit, you'd see horse herds shrinking too I'm sure.

 

Edited October 18, 2016 by Mordraug

[Rathgar 959]

32 minutes ago, rixk said:

There are plenty of people, who actually do enjoy current mechanic. For me it makes sense:

You want to have new animals, you go out and breed the animals. You want the skill, you groom the animals. You want to breed aggressive animals, you also need to tame first. If you don't want to get beat up, you need good armor and/or some fighting skill too.

 

Which part do you consider as punishment here? 40 second breeding timer? That you have to wait until animal gives birth? Or that you have to actually wait, until the animal grows up?

You try to reduce the issue to "40 seconds breeding timer", while several of us have pointed out that there are several aspects of the AH system that could be improved, Id name them all, but you can simply re-read the thread and you will find some of the few things that could be improved.

 

And also yes, 40 seconds of standing idle for no purpose could be made more engaging, or more complex if we could handle more variables to get better outcomes.  The issue is that the AH system has huge room for improvement, but right now its just all bones, with a bunch of long timers and artificial penalties to discourage people from having a huge ammount of stock, or breeding animals altogether.

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

There are many annoyances like this in wurm (my big ones are the courier, humid drizzle and genesis cooldowns which no-one wants fixed).

 

+1 to make some changes (maybe link cooldown to AH skill so a more skilled player has lower cooldowns) but don't remove them completely.

 

The long timers are part of wurm really, I don't think I'd want to see those removed since removing them from breeding would set the argument to remove them from everything.

 

Preventing huge amounts of stock is a good thing, I remember when you never saw wild horses on release because of all the mega-ranches.  Though I will confess there may be personal bias in this opinion since my first home was decimated by mega-ranchers eating up the land.

[rixk 830]

5 minutes ago, Rathgar said:

You try to reduce the issue to "40 seconds breeding timer", while several of us have pointed out that there are several aspects of the AH system that could be improved, Id name them all, but you can simply re-read the thread and you will find some of the few things that could be improved.

 

And also yes, 40 seconds of standing idle for no purpose could be made more engaging, or more complex if we could handle more variables to get better outcomes.  The issue is that the AH system has huge room for improvement, but right now its just all bones, with a bunch of long timers and artificial penalties to discourage people from having a huge ammount of stock, or breeding animals altogether.

Read the OP and you see it is all about timers.. If that would be solution to everything, devs could give us all GM wands and it would be ultimate game.

 

And if you want feedback on your bit of feedback. You suggested to put the animals in the same pen and let nature take its course. Uncontrollable breeding, wouldn't be fun to go away for a week for example, your horses have hit the deed ratio and miscarriages have killed your main breeding females. Thats why it is good to have a mechanic, so you would be the one, who initiates breeding process, so you are in control of it. Second reason of course is.. what use would AH actually have then, right now it determines basically everything about the horse, what then?

 

Basically I am not against changes, there are rarely things, that can't be improved. But just because someone can't stand 40 second timers, nope(yes I still bring up that 40 second timer).

[Jarisleif 24]

responding to original post:

Generally, tedium is part of Wurm, b/c it makes you enjoy the results more. If breeding was fast and easy, everybody would have seven 5-speed horses (in different colors to match days of the week or their mood), and there would not nothing special about it.

More specifically on your points:
- find a human male (aged above Adolescent), and ask them how much of cooldown they need between breeding acts.
- find a human female (age at least Adolescent), and ask them how would they feel about 20 second breeding act.
:)

[SmeJack 5,801]

6 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

There are many annoyances like this in wurm (my big ones are the courier, humid drizzle and genesis cooldowns which no-one wants fixed).

 

Honestly it makes no sense that courier still has a cool down after all the other enchanting ones were removed, there are certainly people who want it 'fixed'

[MrGARY 12,421]

I'd definitely like courier cooldown removed, humid drizzle makes sense in a way for certain reasons to have a cooldown, genesis I don't see why can't be a 5 minute cooldown, much better than 30 minutes per cast and 5 minutes stops the alleged potential spam to kill zombies that literally never happens.  Since we can't zombie op pets like nogumps anymore it makes even more sense to just remove the cooldown entirely

[LorraineJ 1,099]

18 hours ago, SmeJack said:

For someone that doesn't like long boring things you sure are grinding AH the hard way, try shearing and hey you get rares too...

 

I ground up the AH before there was shearing. When I did shear I didn't notice my skill going up any faster... Lots of sheep running around frantically and hard to keep track of which ones were done... But I'm done grinding the AH because it actually becomes harder to get five speeds when you get out of the 70s. The rewards go down in AH.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

16 hours ago, rixk said:

Heh, why don't you focus on the parts, which you enjoy in the game? It is quite obvious, that AH isn't one of the things you enjoy in the game. Yet you keep banging your head against the wall and keep crying, that it hurts. It is your own choice, if you do have a good time or not.

 

And if the whole game has stopped offering good time, then it simply is time for a break or move on, as harsh it sounds.

 

I like having the animals, I don't like the boring long timers that add nothing to my skill or enjoyment or enhance the game. I am saying that 40 seconds of doing nothing with no payoff for having spent that much time bored is not good for entertainment. I am giving feedback to a business. I know I like for customers to give me feedback. There are industries centered around gathering customer feedback.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

11 hours ago, rixk said:

40 seconds mating timer... roughly once during week per female is needlessly tedious? Come on..

And for the record, I suggested her to find a less tedious activity, something which gives her positive emotions, instead of frustration, which AH obviously does give her.

But yeah, if there isn't any activity in game, which can entertain her.. it is time to move on(in many cases it is simply caused by burnout).. Or what would you suggest? Let devs redesign whole game, just so burned out person would feel enjoyment again(nothing personal here)?

 

It's not 40 seconds mating once per week. It's so boring to me that I breed the herd(s) when stuff starts dropping dead, so I can keep five-speed stock. So it's a bunch at once. Very damn boring. But I DO want the five speeds on hand. That does give me enjoyment.

 

The devs do not have to "redesign the whole game" for me. They can just quickly change the max timers for breeding. If they can't do that within a minute, then IDK what to say.

 

And I'm not taking it personal when you say to leave. I SHOULD leave, and will. If WU was already ported to Macs, I'd be gone. When I think of leaving I have a hard time planning out just how to do it. What do I sell, how do I handle certain situations. But yes, you are absolutely correct that I should stop playing.

 

 

 

[LorraineJ 1,099]

10 hours ago, rixk said:

Which part do you consider as punishment here? 40 second breeding timer? YES.

 

That you have to wait until animal gives birth? NO, THAT THE ANIMALS HAVE GIGANTIC PERCENTAGES OF DIFFERENCE OF WHEN THEY DO GIVE BIRTH, WHEN BRED ON THE SAME DAY.

 

Or that you have to actually wait, until the animal grows up? NO, THAT CAN TAKE A LONG TIME SO LESS TIMES I NEED TO BREED.

 

[LorraineJ 1,099]

9 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

There are many annoyances like this in wurm (my big ones are the courier, humid drizzle and genesis cooldowns which no-one wants fixed). WHAT?? I WANT THEM FIXED. WHO WOULDN'T?

 

The long timers are part of wurm really, I don't think I'd want to see those removed since removing them from breeding would set the argument to remove them from everything.

 

(Sorry for the crappy quoting; every time I try to have several sections it goes crazy and I give up.)

 

I am not saying to get rid of ALL the long timers. (I think it but I'm not saying it here.) I know people attach a feeling of accomplishment to it for some reason. I am saying to get rid of long timers on stuff that gives no skill or reward. Like bashing stumps or burying corpses. Or breeding animals. The game is grindy enough. And don't say breeding gives skill. Since I stopped grinding AH to 70 I have not gotten a single extra point skill, despite dealing with animals every single time I log into wurm.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

9 hours ago, rixk said:

But just because someone can't stand 40 second timers, nope(yes I still bring up that 40 second timer).

 

Please do, so maybe it will get through someone's head. 40 seconds is TOO LONG. There is no reward for it. I don't get extra skill because my timer was longer. I don't get skill PERIOD from the breeding. It's just wasting my time. Notice I didn't ###### about the mind numbing boring long timers when I walked up hills with climb left on, or ran into thorn bushes to kill myself half way so the timer would last long when I was BRUSHING the animals for skill gain. I hated it, but I did not complain about it because that's the way the grind works on this game. 40 seconds to breed is just sickening.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

9 hours ago, Jarisleif said:

Generally, tedium is part of Wurm, b/c it makes you enjoy the results more.

 

I honestly don't feel this way. But to each his own.

 

 

Quote

If breeding was fast and easy, everybody would have seven 5-speed horses (in different colors to match days of the week or their mood), and there would not nothing special about it.

 

NO THEY WOULDN'T, BECAUSE THEY'D ALSO HAVE TO PAY FOR THE OUTSIZED DEED. A PERSON KEEPS HORSES BECAUSE THEY SPECIFICALLY LIKE TO. AND NOTE THAT I SAID THE *BREEDING* SHOULD BE FASTER - NOT THE ENTIRE AH GRIND. (Sorry for spazz quote.)

 

More specifically on your points:
- find a human male (aged above Adolescent), and ask them how much of cooldown they need between breeding acts.

 

Ok, here:

http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Wurm_time

 

One RL minute equals 8 wurm minutes. So with the wurm cooldown of 45 minutes to an hour, more likely the full hour or more, you're saying that a guy needs a cooldown of 8 hours. I guess you're speaking for yourself and you should, but presumably these creatures are in the prime of their lives, the male is being used for stud... I don't know what to say.

 

 

Quote

- find a human female (age at least Adolescent), and ask them how would they feel about 20 second breeding act.

 

These are not bonobos. Or humans. I wonder if a female cat could even SURVIVE the actual mating act for over 20 seconds. And again, with the RL to wurm time translation, we're talking 2.64 minutes. Animals are not romantic; also Google  --   average time sex  --  and weep.

Edited October 19, 2016 by LorraineJ

[Mordraug 2,542]

Did horse and human mating rituals just get compared?

 

Lemme hook a generator up to Darwin's spinning corpse, I just discovered infinite energy! =P

 

Now if I could find a way to hook up a Keeper of the Twelve Doctrines of Wurm to a fridge, I'd have food that remains unchaged forever... though the fridge would probably rust to dust in a week because "it's more fun that way".

[Klaa 4,872]

If the cool down timer has to stay in, then at least have some kind of indicator that the horse(s) can be bred again. Something weird in events, mouseover flag, anything...

 

Perhaps even something readable at a variable tile distance correlating to one's husbandry skill: akin to forestry, woodcutting, digging, etc.

 

Unsure if the "gleam in the eye" trait has a use... perhaps add faster cooldown?

[NeeNee 855]

23 hours ago, Mordraug said:

"I enjoy the random gestation times on mammals" said no breeder ever.

 

Standardizing them per species to a much smaller range would be a start, and not exactly a game-wide recode.

 

The average gestation length in the mare ranges from 320 to 362 days; most mares will foal within 330-345 days of successful breeding.  Meaning (minimumtime) up to (minimumtime + 12%).  So "6-10 (irl) days" is a much wider range than that... 6 day min, 8 day max would make more sense for horses, for example.

 

(((Since cooking's getting boosted, incidentally)))

Chickens SHOULD lay every (ingame) day .. would reduce the need to have tons, and if bred with a rooster then lay the next 2-4 eggs as "fertile egg" instead with say... a 50% chance of hatching.

 

Pigs tend to produce large litters in a relatively short period of time. A sow stays pregnant an average of 114 days, although it's not uncommon for pigs to lose their babies before they are born, or have one or more stillborn piglets.  This makes way for pigs to have multiple piglets with a gestation time of 2-3 irl days and room to RNG the amount of piglets from 2-8.  No need to keep millions, breed 'em as you need 'em.

 

Cows are about 10 months with a +/- 10 day difference according to cow age, so about an irl day less than horses in terms of WO.

 

 

More realistic gestation periods would certainly cut down on the amount of horse hoarding, though 6-8 days sound more reasonable than a whole Wurm year. And I would love chickens to lay like that. It makes roosters useful and would keep up stocked on eggs. As you said, less chicken hoarding as well. 

[Finnn 3,303]

23 hours ago, rixk said:

There are plenty of people, who actually do enjoy current mechanic. For me it makes sense:

You want to have new animals, you go out and breed the animals. You want the skill, you groom the animals. You want to breed aggressive animals, you also need to tame first. If you don't want to get beat up, you need good armor and/or some fighting skill too.

 

Which part do you consider as punishment here? 40 second breeding timer? That you have to wait until animal gives birth? Or that you have to actually wait, until the animal grows up?

It's a bit odd to need a 2nd person when breeding aggressive animals, if you do it alone.. you tame one.. and as tamed.. now it's a magnet for any aggressive mob.. at random.. the other animal wont care about you or your tamed one.. and you could breed them without breaking a sweat.

 

AH is (easy with 90coc/sbonus and big farm.. but) really really boring to skill up; we can't "improve traits" on these useless newborns that rng often gives us, bad traits could be fixed by priests, which is also a bit odd(like wheatstones/pelts being only 'repairable' by priests; alchemy needs a priest's touch.. same for animals with genesis for bad-traits and bless for corrupted animals); grinding AH to 50-60-70-80+ AH gives nothing but more rng to get more traits, and good chances for a few bad ones.. casts could fix some.. other not....

Except not all players with high AH are priests or the kind that could cast genesis.. main and only perk for high skill remains to care for .. (skill/10)+1 animals.

 

7 to 11 real life days are a loooooooooooooooooooo...ng time for a pregnancy and in the end, if the horse isn't cared for.. there's the chance for it to die before or during birth.. and to leave the player without one good horse, which isn't a problem, right? Horses now do spawn in the open.. but... getting 5speed from breeding wilds.. could take a month or few..; a new player's just better to buy horses than play 2+months to get his/her first 5speed.

[Aeris 3,752]

+1 for removing the timer after breeding attempts.

 

I don't see the reasoning behind keeping the timer since you always have a chance at succeeding even if you have bupkis skill, so skill restrictions can't be used as argument since someone with 0 skill might succeed at the first attempt while the one with 90 ends up in the time-out corner. The skill matters a great deal when it comes to how the foals turn out, which is how it should be, and pure breeding can't be abused for extra skillgain either. IMO you can't say it's to keep "overpopulation to a minimum" either since that's being restricted already by both deed figures and the off-deed constant risk of death. And the truth is that if you want a foal to be bred you'll keep breeding until you get it, a timer won't stop that from happening. And it's not like you can impregnate a horse multiple times just because the limitation would be removed - The timer really is just an annoyance.

[Meldichoir 242]

By removing the (invisible) cooldown timer after mating, an entire farm of females could be mated with just a single stud within a relatively short breeding session.  In this way, the deed's animal ratio can be utilized for total production with only a small bit attention actually needed to walk around with your 'breed' hotkey.  Basically, once animals begin to reach capacity, the males would be culled right along with the otherwise inadequate offspring.  With that note, the actual timer for the breeding action could certainly be shortened, considering the time needed for the young animal to be born and grow to useful age.

 

There is another factor to consider: those longer mating timers allow one of the two animals to wander away before the action completes; a difficulty when breeding wild animals that have a strong response to flee, and there was a recent update that prevents or limits 'domesticated' (bred in captivity) animals from this behavior, easing the effort needing when breeding more tempered animals from your own stock.

[Aeris 3,752]

You make a fair point about the possibility to breed all mares with one stallion in one go. I'm just not sure if I'm bothered by it, faster horse in-breeding for all - Woo!

[Finnn 3,303]

And than we get laggy servers, deeds packed with 1000 horses, 100k cooked meat in every fsb and so on, it's messing around several markets and possibly the amount of mobs on the server, along with other things.. that could be an amazing WU mod.. but, we're playing the real thing where things usually do not go wild.. well not wilder than pillowfighting pigs with a shield

[MrGARY 12,421]

2 hours ago, Finnn said:

And than we get laggy servers, deeds packed with 1000 horses, 100k cooked meat in every fsb and so on, it's messing around several markets and possibly the amount of mobs on the server, along with other things.. that could be an amazing WU mod.. but, we're playing the real thing where things usually do not go wild.. well not wilder than pillowfighting pigs with a shield

 

well i mean those horses would just die and miscarriage

 

but i dont see how removing a small timer would promote having 1000 horses and 100k cooked meat would mean you've killed probably over 8000 horses so that means you're keeping things in check sounds ok to me