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skyefox

Some Thoughts on Bridges

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First off I think bridges are a wonderful addition to the game.  I have made use of many that make getting from point A to point B much quicker and it is nice that the Devs decided to lower decay rates and base it on usage, however, I have run into a couple of serious issues with off deed bridges. 

 

Although not all builders do this, some make use of buildings for the support structure between the arches of multi-span bridges or as the foundation for the start/end of a bridge.  I have in my travels I have come across bridges designed this way that have suffered decay on the floor/ceiling of the buildings that are incorporated into the bridge structure.  This essentially renders the bridge useless once it decays completely.  Unlike the rest of the bridge, buildings can't be repaired by just anybody.

 

I'm not trying to suggest how bridges should be built, these are just my observations as I travel throughout Wurm.

 

Skyefox

Mayor: Albia Estates

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This is a major reason I recently replaced the bridge structure going to my deed with a single arched bridge instead of what I had previously, which consisted of straight 20-slope bridges on either side going up to 1x1 support buildings, with an arched bridge in the middle. It looked nice and worked well, but not only did someone accidentally put perimeter over one building support and then vanish forever, it also prevented the bridge from properly acting as a highway terminus.

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I believe there is a rule in place in regards to highways that do no permit buildings to block access, so if someone adds a bridge using buildings for support to a highway they are violating the rule, or if they build a highway incorporating buildings they do not meet highway standards. What people do for there 1x wide roads and on there deeds is there own business.

 

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If you could set repair building for kingdom in manage building would be nice .

As is don't think there is separate option for just repair alone.

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One thing I have noticed, some folks, not all, put in nice 60 or 70 QL stone buildings, but when they put in the "Floor Above" to make the connecting roadway between two pieces of bridging, they forget to imp up the Floor Above to the same QL as the rest of the building.

 

I have observed that Floor Above QL is always much lower then the rest of the building when installed, as Roofs and Floors are related to the Paving skill at the time of installation.

 

Thus, a 60 QL Stone building will take decay really slowly, whilst the Floor Above which usually "install build's" at a very low QL by comparison (between 10 and 30) , will take decay faster then the walls, which is why they are usually the first parts to fail in an Off Deed building.

 

As mention in previous posts above, someone builds a bridge with buildings for abutments and then quits Wurm, rendering the Highway Bridge inoperable when the Floor Above decays to 99 dmg and goes away.

 

There is a very tragic example in the case of the Eminence Island bridge on Indy.

 

The builder was killed in an RL accident by a drunk driver.  After the avatar concerned was six weeks AFF, the off deed connector buildings went into rapid onset decay, which took out their Floor Above connecting roadways in a matter of a few weeks.

 

His RL widow has since sold the accounts and the new owner says he will be fixing the problem pieces soon....

 

..... but if this bridge had had sloped dirt ramps on is approaches, with flat raise ground as interconnectors, there would not be a problem.

 

So folks.... IF your going to make a Multi Span Bridge that will be an integral part of the of the Highway system on completion, perhaps it would be worth the extra bit of effort to use flat rises as your interconnecting sections instead of buildings.  A good example of this is the Black Dog Island Bridge the OTG folks built across the central Inner Sea.

 

Food for thought!

Cheers! Hughmongus

Co-Administrator, the Albia Roads Map of Indy

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It's worth noting that bridge height requirements were relaxed somewhat recently, so you no longer need 80(?) slope to start a long arched bridge. I believe bridges only need to be 10 above water now no matter what, but don't quote me on that. I know it's true of my 29-ish tile arched stone bridge to my deed.

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Yeah the height has been relaxed, but low bridges are a bad idea if you intend boats to pass under, a low bridge requires being in the middle to pass or you get stuck on structure.

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4 hours ago, JakeRivers said:

I believe there is a rule in place in regards to highways that do no permit buildings to block access, so if someone adds a bridge using buildings for support to a highway they are violating the rule, or if they build a highway incorporating buildings they do not meet highway standards. What people do for there 1x wide roads and on there deeds is there own business.

 

 

Keep in mind in some circumstance, such as extra long bridges, the most time and resource effective method is to chain them on top of houses.

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7 minutes ago, Propheteer said:

 

Keep in mind in some circumstance, such as extra long bridges, the most time and resource effective method is to chain them on top of houses.

 

No doubt about that, but for regular highways its a bad idea, one building goes one or more bridges poof and all that work is lost. Better to spend the time to build up a dirt pyramid, if the bridge is that large you have already committed a huge amount of time to building it.

 

As for imping the floors, higher quality would mean lower decay rates, but I have still seen good ql floors decay at a faster rate than walls, so that is not really a viable solution. Best to avoid buildings all together when doing off deed bridges. 

 

Making attached buildings have the same rule for decay as roads and bridges would just lead to abuse of off deed buildings, tired of upkeep on your source spring building? No problem, just add a ramp, for one example.

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26 minutes ago, Propheteer said:

 

Keep in mind in some circumstance, such as extra long bridges, the most time and resource effective method is to chain them on top of houses.

 

Should that be the most time and resource effective method? Sounds to me like the formula behind bridges could use some tweaking to balance things out.

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Or there could be a code change that essentially says if the bridge is 2+ tiles wide (meaning highway) and it's attached to a building then that building experiences decay at the same rate as the bridge. Seems like that would cover this nicely.

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3 minutes ago, Nappy said:

Or there could be a code change that essentially says if the bridge is 2+ tiles wide (meaning highway) and it's attached to a building then that building experiences decay at the same rate as the bridge. Seems like that would cover this nicely.

 

Then I could build any building 2wide and protect it off deed with a simple 2wide wood bridge that takes minutes to build.

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14 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

 

Should that be the most time and resource effective method? Sounds to me like the formula behind bridges could use some tweaking to balance things out.

 

The other option is to use like 15k dirt to raise huge dirt spikes in the middle of the water.

Edited by Propheteer

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5 minutes ago, Propheteer said:

 

The other option is to use like 15k dirt to raise huge dirt spikes in the middle of the water.

 

Lots of work, but totally ;) doable.

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11 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

 

Then I could build any building 2wide and protect it off deed with a simple 2wide wood bridge that takes minutes to build.

 

As long as it doesn't increase support impact then that should be fine.

 

Obviously the coding could be more specific around how to identify if it's a bridge or not. Would be a shame to see a direction shift to outlaw buildings as being part of design, some really creative bridges have occurred because of the inclusion of buildings in the design.

 

~Nappy

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If someone wants to get rid of a land bridge for there spiffy new bridge on a highway they better ensure the bridge will last as long as the pavement, or leave the landbridge in place and build there creative bridge next to it if that is what they wish to do.

 

There is nothing wrong with outlaw buildings as there is code in place to make the maintenance on them a regular thing. If you want that outlaw building, you have to work to keep it going.

 

Creating more rules for the staff to babysit on whether this is a building or a highway is not needed.

Edited by JakeRivers

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I did have an idea a while back for those massive dirt spikes those bridges require, but a structure that could be created as a platform to replace it could lead to more abuse, the heavy requirement for dirt pyramids means the general player base will not spend the time to block off the very deep water ways.

Edited by JakeRivers

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8 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

If someone wants to get rid of a land bridge for there spiffy new bridge on a highway they better ensure the bridge will last as long as the pavement, or leave the landbridge in place and build there creative bridge next to it if that is what they wish to do.

 

There is nothing wrong with outlaw buildings as there is code in place to make the maintenance on them a regular thing. If you want that outlaw building, you have to work to keep it going.

 

Creating more rules for the staff to babysit on whether this is a building or a highway is not needed.

 

If it's coded properly then no babysitting required so no staff impact. The support impact comes when buildings collapse destroying bridges. Easiest solution that respects player creativity is to continue to allow buildings to be part of the building process, therefore extend building protection.

 

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1 hour ago, Nappy said:

If it's coded properly

 

That is fine once the other bugs with bridges is addressed.

 

Still see big loop holes in your idea for off deed never decay buildings, no matter how you code it.

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8 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

This is a major reason I recently replaced the bridge structure going to my deed with a single arched bridge instead of what I had previously, which consisted of straight 20-slope bridges on either side going up to 1x1 support buildings, with an arched bridge in the middle. It looked nice and worked well, but not only did someone accidentally put perimeter over one building support and then vanish forever, it also prevented the bridge from properly acting as a highway terminus.

 

Yeah, I destroyed every bridge I had that used a support building. Then, on many of them, I used 5 tile long, low arched bridges vs piling up 80 tall dirt mounds. Everything goes through them as well as they would under them and they don't block the view. They also don't cover anything that goes anywhere - just into bays that completely on the deed with no outlet or passage past them. I wouldn't use them for a canal or anything.

 

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When I built Whoem on Xanadu I put the extra effort into making the dirt spires. I new some mean person would sooner or later come along and put perimeter over the 1x1 support houses to destroy the bridge. I think the spire was at least 500 high and at the top it's a 2x2.

 

My solution would be to make this possible:

1. build bridge from ground to building and have the last bridge tile next to the building be a support.

2. Destroy the house and the bridge doesn't decay. I guess if the bridge tile next to the house is a support that is the case where the bridge doesn't destroy. It might be nessiecary to rework the acceptable bridge tile combinations.

3. Let players build a new bridge from the the end of the existent one. If needed a person could repeat the process of building up to a house and destroying.

 

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7 hours ago, JakeRivers said:

 

Lots of work, but totally ;) doable.

 

Not impossible or difficult by any mean, just inefficient, ugly, and kills the general aesthetic of having a stone or marble bridge to begin with.

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30 minutes ago, Propheteer said:

 

Not impossible or difficult by any mean, just inefficient, ugly, and kills the general aesthetic of having a stone or marble bridge to begin with.

 

If most of it is underwater not so bad, but above ground yeah, pure ugly.

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Could be as simple as passing writs to a gm team alt who leaves it open to the universe and all its denizens, a quick action for moderation team to handle.

They can block decay right? Once owned by a gm, it never decays and that bridge support is both highway protected and will not decay under normal circumstances.

Bridge is now as permanent as the highway.

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Would've been great, if at the same time as bridges came, there were also buildable bridge supports, which would've replaced the muiltistory houses. Only function would be support bridges, decay also similar as bridges currently have, that when it is actively used, it doesn't decay, no matter who owns it.

Right now the buildings are weakest link of bridge system. Once the owner goes on a break/quits, the buildings start to get massive damage and whole bridge system collapses without having a chance to rescue it. Raised land of course can help at times, but not always,. when you want to aim for the heights and/or the bridge goes through someones deed, then those dirtspikes aren't very pretty.

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