Weekly News #39 Measuring Up

[joedobo 1,187]

The measuring thing is another bad idea. It adds tedium and no fun content. It would be a better idea to use shift drag and let folk specify how much liquid they want to move.

 

Thank goodness for WU. Best thing you've ever done Rolf!

[Retrograde 12,013]

5 minutes ago, joedobo said:

The measuring thing is another bad idea. It adds tedium and no fun content. It would be a better idea to use shift drag and let folk specify how much liquid they want to move.

You may be a little confused.

 

This allows the player to set the amount and shift drag to fill it, meaning they don't have to specify how much they want each time they do so, having to specify the amount each time would add tedium and no fun content.

[rixk 830]

3 hours ago, SeeD said:

I'm sorry, are we making up fake complaints now because everyone benefits instead of just those with exploited items?

 

fountain pans are going, you've got your answers, pretty good trade in the end imo.

 

buy some magic chests

Buy some fountain pans. Despite coming to the game via a bug, they still were(currently are) available to everyone. Exactly like past xmas presents, low weight butchering knives, 50kg anvils and many other legacy items(which current players also have no way to get otherwise).

Funny thing is, the pans don't stop decay.. What next? Campaign about magic chests(the owners have clearly an advantage over those, who don't)? Just like traders(and pans).. people, who don't buy one, complain about those, who do.

Balance isn't about everyone having same features/items all the time. It is about giving everyone same options/chances. Whether they take it or not, is up to them.

[ShadowRonin 407]

The stuff you're doing to compensate for fountain pan removal are features that should have always been incorporated; don't pretend you're doing us any favors, it's insulting.

[Nappy 1,369]

On 01/10/2016 at 10:29 AM, SeeD said:

Hidden post content removed

 

Well let's discuss this a bit more in depth using an example. I don't own a fountain pan so it's not about the fountain pan (and while quoting your post to give context, this response is in no way directed at you personally).

 

I do own a trader and I paid the full 50 silver for the trader when I purchased it to explore trader mechanics (this was long after the time when people actually made money from traders, I certainly never made mine back or even close to it. I did like having the ability to purchase some transmutation rods and other trader items without a long trip to the starter deed).

 

When I decided to spend time on another CodeClub product, Wurm Unlimited, I shrunk my main deed and in the process my trader was now in a house outside deed boundaries. I wanted that land available to others so instead of using a house to block access I actually destroyed the house that was holding the trader making it available for anyone in the area who wanted to use it. Since I did not disband my deed the trader remained a citizen of my deed. Game mechanics prevent me from moving the trader from it's original location.

 

A bit of time passed and along came Jake Rivers to found a deed on top of the trader. He also built a house around the trader, blocking it from the owner of the trader and also from the community if they wanted to use it. He didn't pay anything for the trader etc.

 

When I decided to return to WO(PVE) for a bit I discovered my loss of access to the trader. When I filed a support ticket regarding access to my trader I was told that someone blocking me from something I paid for was in line with official game rules. I was also informed that rulings in WO are based on what causes the least impact to the support staff and not what is the right/moral etc thing to do. It probably doesn't hurt to add that it was over a week before initial response was made on the support ticket.

 

Net result - official ruling - It's ok for someone to steal something from you that you paid 50 silver for because even though the trader is still a member of my deed and therefore easy to trace ownership on, it's better to rule in favor of the thief because it's less work for the support team.

 

Coming back to the fountain pans, I've heard from enough people that years ago an official ruling was made that they were staying in the game to believe it existed. Based on that ruling people paid money out for these items, ruling disappears, new ruling comes out stating they are no longer staying in game. People lose money, people lose items, people lose the sense that WO is a place where they will be treated with the respect and the protection that customers deserve. 

 

What amazes me is that people are still surprised to learn that 42% of the premiums that were in Wurm a year ago no longer are.

 

What also amazes me is the whole argument being made about the level of service provided in WO. Think about the economics for a moment:

 

15 WO servers = 75 euros per month ($111 CDN) X 15 =  1,125 euros per month (the cost to host an equivalent set of servers that is likely more then capable of providing current WO server performance levels. Xanadu may require a slightly higher priced server)

1125/10 euros = 112.5 or 113 premiums needed to pay for monthly server costs

The only remaining costs are staff, promotion etc which are reputed to be low to non-existent.

 

If you have servers that constantly lag and a support policy that focuses on what causes least amount of impact to support team then what is your premium really going for?

 

Reality is that Wurm could lose a lot more premium population then they already have before they actually have to change their ways to provide better value for the money and much more support for their players.

 

In the meantime we have posts where players attack players on behalf of code club and the problem just continues. People lost money (not me in this case) with fountain pans and many other times before that. It's only a matter of time before you get impacted in a similar way no matter how good a member of the community you are. Perhaps consider that when you are in full on attack mode against other players whose only crime was spending some money to play the game with stuff they like using.

[Nappy 1,369]

5 minutes ago, SeeD said:

I'm not attacking players at all.

 

My belief is simple, we are gaining more as a whole from these changes than we are losing from their removal, including my 2 pans which I paid 60s for each when WU was announced.

 

Again, wasn't directing my reply to you in particular, just providing some room for thought. 

 

I think anytime people lose money unfairly in a game then it will leave them considering why they would ever spend money in the game again. Also applies to rulings that hurt players rather then the person who did the wrong act.

 

With time this leads to loss of players and loss of revenue. Both have happened, hard to deny fewer people on servers and way less market then there used to be.

 

While you may be ok with the compensation offered thus far, this doesn't mean that others can't feel they haven't received a fair compensation for what they are losing. That, quite simply, is the right of everyone who plays this game. Some of those people leave each time something like this happens and they feel like they have lost something of importance to them.

I've said my piece and I will leave it at that.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Nappy

[ShadowRonin 407]

On 01/10/2016 at 2:48 PM, SeeD said:

Hidden post content removed

 

 

This game is full of items that can no longer be obtained without direct purchase, either you're too inexperienced, or too willfully stupid to acknowledge that.  So should we get rid of everything no new player can gain through their own effort?  Sure, at this point it's hard to care much about decisions that dictate the way this game is going.  They've allowed an economy to grow for years off of this unintentional exploit, and did nothing, until it became a political move to do so.  Yes, it is political, somehow scores of people think they're robbed by not having a fountain of capacity they payed out the ass for sitting in a chest.  Of course I should've done the smart thing and just made an alt army, 1 month premium with a referral isn't bad, but of course that goes into CCAB's pocket, not the private owner.  They're squeezing every last drop out of this game before is withers and dies.

[rixk 830]

10 minutes ago, Nappy said:

 

When I decided to return to WO(PVE) for a bit I discovered my loss of access to the trader. When I filed a support ticket regarding access to my trader I was told that someone blocking me from something I paid for was in line with official game rules. I was also informed that rulings in WO are based on what causes the least impact to the support staff and not what is the right/moral etc thing to do. It probably doesn't hurt to add that it was over a week before initial response was made on the support ticket.

 

Net result - official ruling - It's ok for someone to steal something from you that you paid 50 silver for because even though the trader is still a member of my deed and therefore easy to trace ownership on, it's better to rule in favor of the thief because it's less work for the support team.

 

I'm going bit offtopic here, but I simply can't help it.. In other topic it was asked, how WO stands out from WU.. Retro gave 4 points, one was that "WO is moderated". Reality is, that the support has been taken to the minimum(because it is apparently a lot of work), that people actually are leaving WO to WU just to escape such things you desribed.

 

Anyway.. back to pans

[bdew 2,462]

14 hours ago, Retrograde said:

I'm pleased to announce what is most likely the final change brought into the game

 

Wording man... Sounds like after that's implemented everybody just packs up and goes home.

 

[Retrograde 12,013]

3 minutes ago, bdew said:

 

Wording man... Sounds like after that's implemented everybody just packs up and goes home.

 

Whoops! No time for going home, far too much coming!

[ShadowRonin 407]

If all of these changes are supposed to account for the loss of my fountain pans, then why can't I just keep my fountain pans anyways?

[Niki 2,278]

good job

 

i still want my fountain pans...

Edited October 1, 2016 by Niki

[Propheteer 7,139]

at this rate, 12 more months and wurm will be sub 500 players.

 

 

lets make the most of it guys. (game really needs like a reset, a merge, a new map, a server, something to get life back in.)

 

Edited October 1, 2016 by Propheteer

[Huntar 1,692]

measuring cups? count me in, paying for 12 more months of prem RIGHT NOW

[Pandalet 1,848]

Can't wait for cooking to come in!  Time for a deed remodel to fit a proper kitchen...

[Pingpong 1,070]

2 hours ago, Pandalet said:

Can't wait for cooking to come in!  Time for a deed remodel to fit a proper kitchen...

1 oven, 1 frypan.....sounds about right.

[Tsetse 87]

does this mean magical chests no longer decay on deed?

[Cerberus 247]

5 hours ago, Propheteer said:

at this rate, 12 more months and wurm will be sub 500 players.

 

 

lets make the most of it guys. (game really needs like a reset, a merge, a new map, a server, something to get life back in.)

 

Something along the lines of Rolf actually making a short and long term plan and goals for Wurm instead of just..... not sure what to call this cluster ....  ? Either way I'd like to know what Rolf has as a vision for Wurm if he still has one. Rolf let us know what you intend for the direction of Wurm please. If you don't know how to set up a good business model, use the income from WU and hire someone with good business sense and direction to help you pull your game out of the decline before as Propheteer said, 12 months and 500 premiums. I enjoy the game, but I don't see it recovering from the WU release and loss of players without some serious planning and execution. I'd go as far as getting rid of the tutorial system, make a capital city there instead, take volunteers from the Community Assistants group to be in charge of helping any new players who join providing them direct support and answers while they all live there, then once they gain the knowledge have them choose what server to live on after a few weeks.

[Reylaark 1,100]

9 hours ago, joedobo said:

The measuring thing is another bad idea. It adds tedium and no fun content. It would be a better idea to use shift drag and let folk specify how much liquid they want to move.

 

Thank goodness for WU. Best thing you've ever done Rolf!

 

Wurm Unlimited is indeed a lot of fun as well.  I do find it hard to get used to the timers in WO after time in WU.  I don't know that I would suggest changing them though, there's something nostalgic about the slower pace of life in WO, but that may be rather selfish of me in the long run.  Devs have to do what they themselves feel is best for their product regardless of my own personal motivations.

That said, I cannot agree with you about the measuring jug.  Creating the tool I need to get something done has always been a part of Wurm as I know it.  I love that part.  There are some shortcuts that may seem to remove tedium when, in fact, they simply remove something special about Wurm.  Want to build a fence?  You'll need nails, which means you'll need a small anvil, a pickaxe to mine, etc.  It's the granular nature of manufacturing in Wurm that I've always loved (among many other things).

People have been using flasks to measure out smaller bits of liquid.  Or they'll stuff something of a set volume in a jar to specify how much they need (or some such, the details escape me.)

Now, there's a precise tool I can build myself using materials I've gathered.

That's quintessential Wurm right there.

3 hours ago, Pingpong said:

1 oven, 1 frypan.....sounds about right.

I'm pretty sure one of the things incoming with the new cooking system is more variety... well, the variety of tools has been there, but there was little reason to use them.  The new cooking system (I think) will make sauce pans, clay pots, etc. more relevant to cooking.  It should also help justify overflowing FSBs ready to burst at the joints.

 

If 1 oven, 1 frypan sounds rather simplistic for a system worthy of Wurm, I'm with ya 100%.  I'm excited for the new cooking system.  I've been hoping for a long, long time having all these ingredients available.  I spent a bit of time in Black Desert Online (before the community made me wish their parents had not had children), and I liked the cooking system in there a lot.  Many ingredients could be grown and gathered, but unlike wurm currently, the end-products I cooked each had various useful buffs.  There was a good motivation to make use of the variety available.  I think Wurm deserves a robust system, and hopefully the incoming system will bring the requisite complexity. 

 

What some see as tedium, I see as a more engaging system, particularly regarding cooking.  I do hope we have the ability to sell our meals some day, or maybe a refreshing lemonade with a quick sandwich halfway up that mountain.

[JakeRivers 2,921]

13 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Pelts will be adjusted to fit in other containers, are there many other items that wont fit in a large chest? (barring the usual oversized fishing rods and polearms)

 

While you are making the size adjustment how about removing the mail limit on items, kill 2 birds with one stone.

 

Seriously fishing rods, flags, polearms, longbows, lamps should all be able to fit inside a mailbox. The mail system is magical after all.

Edited October 1, 2016 by JakeRivers

[Ostentatio 1,970]

Just now, JakeRivers said:

 

While you are making the size adjustment how about removing the mail limit on items, kill 2 birds with one stone.

 

"While you're doing that, do this other, completely unrelated thing."

[JakeRivers 2,921]

Just now, Ostentatio said:

 

"While you're doing that, do this other, completely unrelated thing."

 

Unrelated maybe, needs to be done yes. These people largely ignore the suggestion thread, there are so many made I can understand it, but mail limits is a issue that needs to be addressed, then I will be able to sell my rare spare huge axe and use the one I have with better enchants.

[Retrograde 12,013]

27 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

 

Unrelated maybe, needs to be done yes. These people largely ignore the suggestion thread, there are so many made I can understand it, but mail limits is a issue that needs to be addressed, then I will be able to sell my rare spare huge axe and use the one I have with better enchants.

The suggestion thread is not ignored, but many suggestions do not take into account time, focus, or any realistic approach.

 

a lot of suggestions actually wind up in game and in future projects.

 

As I stated previously, mail limitations are a completely seperate area and are not the current focus.

[Pingpong 1,070]

5 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

The suggestion thread is not ignored, but many suggestions do not take into account time, focus, or any realistic approach.

 

a lot of suggestions actually wind up in game and in future projects.

 

As I stated previously, mail limitations are a completely seperate area and are not the current focus.

Ok thx, hopefully soon though

[Ecrir 887]

WU certainly hasn't helped. WO has many QoL issues for which suggestions have been made plenty of times over the year but often nothing, or not enough, gets done about them. For WU people can just fix those issues themselves and then suddenly WO is in heavy competition with WU.

An example of a QoL issue is decay. Repairing items impedes fun gameplay. All the time you spend repairing your ###### is less time you can spend actually having fun. Not having to repair decorations is definetly a step in the right direction there, but yet it still falls short because there are so many other items which will still decay on deed after that change. Until now people who owned magic chests and fountain pans combined them in order to solve this QoL issue, yet that is being taken away because it should not be possible to store a huge amount of items in a chest. That reason for taking it away one the one hand makes sense as chests shouldn't work like that (so logic), but that reason also fails to properly recognise how negatively QoL will be affected for those players.

 

Staff has adressed this by saying that those players can buy more magic chests, but lets be honest here, those chests are rediculously overpriced, especially for players who like to hoard stuff. This is thus punishing towards hoarders and that is not the kind of behaviour which you should be punishing, as such players can often end up making goals for themselves to acquire item X or Y, and goals are what keep plenty of people playing and paying. The more stuff you have the more invested you might also feel in the game, which makes it harder to quit, thus again it keeps people playing and paying. Seems to me like magic chests are now impeding QoL. This actually makes the magic chests a part of the problem, not part of the solution.

 

I still hope that one day the devs realise that decay on all repairable items on deed should be removed (excluding items which can fit in bulk storage). Dropping magic chest prices would probably also be a good idea, especially when compared to a storage alt, which cost only around 10s (less if considering referal, etc) and is mobile. It would probably also need some kind of right click refund option to compensate current owners of said chests.

As long as such decay continues to exist on deed then it will continue to impede players from having fun, this will make alternatives like WU, or even completely different games, more and more attractive. Worse yet, the longer people are playing WO the more stuff they tend to gather and thus the more decay will impede their fun.

 

It thus doesn't suprise me at all that the player base has been shrinking since WU, since WU has fixed these issues and WO hasn't (and is even making it worse for some players).

* I personally do not own magic chests, so I will not be negatively affected from the removal of fountain pans. I store all my stuff on much cheaper alts. I'm really happy to see the change for decorations, but at the same time sad that they are only half fixing the issue.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Ecrir