For the attention of the Devs (Metallurgy Test Results)

[joedobo 1,187]

70 coal making here, using 70's logs and 90's dirt, I believe I get around 50's ql piles. If it was working properly I'd expect to be getting some 70's ql piles.

[Wargasm 1,927]

That's normal for current formulas.

 

As a rule of thumb (and I say this for Retro and others that don't know much about coal making) the formula of output is generally something like this for a 70 coalmaker using 70 ql mats:

 

70 (skill)  X   70  (mats QL)   /   100 (for decimal form) =  49.

 

Your average QL coal will be 49 - 50 ql.

 

50 skill with 50 ql mats   /  100 =  25-30 ql piles.

 

90 skill with 90 ql mats / 100  =    81 ql piles.

 

Give or take 1-2 ql, this is the "rule of thumb" you can expect when you make coal piles.  I'm sure someone out there has tested 100 ql logs with 99.99 coal making on WU, I'd love to see what the output there looks like.

[Jonydowy 616]

4 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

That's normal for current formulas.

 

As a rule of thumb (and I say this for Retro and others that don't know much about coal making) the formula of output is generally something like this for a 70 coalmaker using 70 ql mats:

 

70 (skill)  X   70  (mats QL)   /   100 (for decimal form) =  49.

 

Your average QL coal will be 49 - 50 ql.

 

50 skill with 50 ql mats   /  100 =  25-30 ql piles.

 

90 skill with 90 ql mats / 100  =    81 ql piles.

 

Give or take 1-2 ql, this is the "rule of thumb" you can expect when you make coal piles.  I'm sure someone out there has tested 100 ql logs with 99.99 coal making on WU, I'd love to see what the output there looks like.

 

 

Yea.. now take that rule and put it in the RGN system now.. what's left? complete BS!!

 

Well,my foult,i should expect that the people who make profit right now would be against any changes.. becouse.. you know,more competition.

And they say I am the one not thinking of wurm as a whole and i want the change for my own gain..

 

I'm out!

[GoldFever 299]

10 minutes ago, Jonydowy said:

  ok,now you made me very curious,how many piles do you make to get 1k 80+ charcoal and what ql of the materials,and how often do you get 90ql charcoal becouse that is pretty much impossible.

 

Please let me know and also what skills

 

Skill level is 94.6 in coal making.  Don't really know the answer to your question--I just make them...However what I can say is that to make the 75ql coal that was ordered I was able to mix in a ton of much lower ql stuff I had lying around...

 

As a rough rule of thumb, walnut piles will give you around 50% of the ql of the pile in coal, oak around 66%.  This is not exact but close enough.  So, to get 80ql, you need 72.75 ql pile, that will give about 36 coal each.  to get 1000 coal is then 28 piles.  Would probably want to use 85ql mats and most piles would probably work.  Think the odds are good that mixed, it would work out ok.

 

 

[GoldFever 299]

12 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

That's normal for current formulas.

 

As a rule of thumb (and I say this for Retro and others that don't know much about coal making) the formula of output is generally something like this for a 70 coalmaker using 70 ql mats:

 

70 (skill)  X   70  (mats QL)   /   100 (for decimal form) =  49.

 

Your average QL coal will be 49 - 50 ql.

 

50 skill with 50 ql mats   /  100 =  25-30 ql piles.

 

90 skill with 90 ql mats / 100  =    81 ql piles.

 

Give or take 1-2 ql, this is the "rule of thumb" you can expect when you make coal piles.  I'm sure someone out there has tested 100 ql logs with 99.99 coal making on WU, I'd love to see what the output there looks like.

 

At my skill level of 94.6 and using high ql mats, apply a further 85% factor for average output.  I haven't tested at the lower ql mats, been meaning to get to that so I have no idea how that factor applies to lower ql stuff.

[Jonydowy 616]

7 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

 

Skill level is 94.6 in coal making.  Don't really know the answer to your question--I just make them...However what I can say is that to make the 75ql coal that was ordered I was able to mix in a ton of much lower ql stuff I had lying around...

 

As a rough rule of thumb, walnut piles will give you around 50% of the ql of the pile in coal, oak around 66%.  This is not exact but close enough.  So, to get 80ql, you need 72.75 ql pile, that will give about 36 coal each.  to get 1000 coal is then 28 piles.  Would probably want to use 85ql mats and most piles would probably work.  Think the odds are good that mixed, it would work out ok.

 

 

 

 

Either there was a change since i last made piles or you you are on something reaaaly good,28 piles to make 1k charoal of 80ql+???  i made 300 piles with 90skill, 90+ materials and didn't got even 1,5k... becouse when you create a pile there is a random ql you get the pile.. and then random ql added with every log and dirt you add.. there is no 100% chance to get 80ql+ pile even with 99skill and ql on everything..

[joedobo 1,187]

29 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

That's normal for current formulas.

 

I'm saying normal is broken. I could also say coal making has been broken for years.

 

again,

If I have 70's skill, and use 70's+ materials, I'd expect to see some 70 ql results. It doesn't matter what skill it is. It's just a general observation.

[Wargasm 1,927]

I'm not saying normal is good.  I'm saying that's currently the rate you'd get.  Yes, it needs to be looked at, I agree.

[Baddbob 7]

There's already been a suggestion for the enhancement of metallurgy through a refining process, details pending and being discussed of course. Link here,

 

[Gaeron 551]

1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

The point Retro is trying to make is that Metallurgy itself is fine.  I have 58 metallurgy myself, I have seen the curves of the QL of steel lumps at various skill levels in Metallurgy.

 

A couple points to note:

1.  If the devs made it "easier" to get high ql steel lumps, you would create less <40 ql lumps, and thus Metallurgy would be even harder to skill than it is now. 

2.  It is much easier to get 90 ql iron than it is 90 ql charcoal.  If anything needs to be looked at, it's coal making, NOT Metallurgy.

 

It's not as easy as sawing 90 ql planks folks, get over it.

 

There is also the matter of expectations, I get a skill into the 90's and put in a significant effort in doing so. My reward is tiny improve increments and on resource creation actions maybe 4% with ql at skill level. The former I understand and accept even if I don't actually like it. The latter is just a massive dis-incentive especially when you look at a chain of skills which have to be over 90 for the last to then suck.

[GoldFever 299]

45 minutes ago, Jonydowy said:

 

 

Either there was a change since i last made piles or you you are on something reaaaly good,28 piles to make 1k charoal of 80ql+???  i made 300 piles with 90skill, 90+ materials and didn't got even 1,5k... becouse when you create a pile there is a random ql you get the pile.. and then random ql added with every log and dirt you add.. there is no 100% chance to get 80ql+ pile even with 99skill and ql on everything..

 

I guess I'm just really really lucky then, but re the 28 piles, that is about how many 73ql piles you will need to get 1000 80ql coal.  Now, how many piles you need to make to get a 73ql one will depend on your skill and ql of the mats used.  Not a problem for me.

 

As a general rule of thumb I have noticed that using mats that are over my skill level doesn't really add anything, so I get the double benefit of the higher skill and the ability to make proper use of higher ql mats.  There are a lot of factors in play I'm sure.  I don't really care what they all are, have fun skilling up and use the best mats you can and see what comes out.  Do that enough and the results are ok.  If not fun for you, don't do it, do something else that is fun and buy what you need to do what is fun for you.  As for me, I'm insane enough to buy tons of low ql logs and make 10ql coal piles.  I could do it faster with coc kindling, but hey, I like creating a market now and again for low ql logs and helping people out that way.  Plus I get a small amount of low ql coal as well.

 

If devs want to boost coal making up a bit, fine by me, but I don't see that it needs it myself.

[zigozag 918]

Isn't it all about skillchecks on every action? Just get rid of them! It's the same mechanism that leaves me with a 25ql Knarr with all 60+ql mats and 75 skill, but in that case it doesn't matter because you can improve. And here you cannot. Clearly an oversight, in my opinion.

[GoldFever 299]

4 minutes ago, Gaeron said:

 

There is also the matter of expectations, I get a skill into the 90's and put in a significant effort in doing so. My reward is tiny improve increments and on resource creation actions maybe 4% with ql at skill level. The former I understand and accept even if I don't actually like it. The latter is just a massive dis-incentive especially when you look at a chain of skills which have to be over 90 for the last to then suck.

 

I would venture the expectation for steel is that it takes a team. I think it is great that there are certain crafts that really require a team to work together on to get the best results in a "reasonable" amount of time. 

[Gaeron 551]

20 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

 

I would venture the expectation for steel is that it takes a team. I think it is great that there are certain crafts that really require a team to work together on to get the best results in a "reasonable" amount of time. 

Yes and no.

 

Certainly earlier on coal-making and various other skills do benefit strongly from being a team endevour, specialisation and whatnot. Later on in an invested players life its quite reasonable to assume they can readily go it it alone, doesn't take that long either really.

 

For me though its the team aspect that makes it a disappointment. Thanks player A for the awesome ql logs, thanks player B for the awesome QL dirt, you both passed to player C and thanks player C for the excellent ql charcoal, thanks player D for the awesome QL iron. Now the bad news guys, all your hard work and that big pile of steel, thats all meh.... this handful here, this is the good stuff.

 

Makes you feel good about yourself....... At least once you can go it alone you don't feel like you are letting the side down.

[Ayes 3,715]

Mindboggling the results obtained from so much time and effort put forth to achieve all these high skill levels, plus in the end being able to produce high QL steel to improve plate/steel items. Typical time = tedium = achievement (but not too much result/reward) Wurm philosophy.

 

The solution? Stop making steel, plate and steel items. Stop buying these items. Go to high QL chain for PvE use. In the process players will save time to devote to other more profitable and enjoyable ventures. Also save silver = RL money by purchasing cheaper chain items. The problem is that players fall for these ruses in the hope of equitable results rather than learn not to bother with certain Wurm black holes of frustration.

 

=Ayes=

[Gumbo 1,563]

2 hours ago, Jonydowy said:

  ok, now you made me very curious, how many piles do you make...

 

Too many, faaaarr too many coal piles burning outside of my workshop day and night and day.   lols, only kidding Gold, you go nuts on them piles, for the greater good.

:)

Great discussion going on tho. awesome.

[GoldFever 299]

38 minutes ago, Gaeron said:

Yes and no.

 

Certainly earlier on coal-making and various other skills do benefit strongly from being a team endevour, specialisation and whatnot. Later on in an invested players life its quite reasonable to assume they can readily go it it alone, doesn't take that long either really.

 

For me though its the team aspect that makes it a disappointment. Thanks player A for the awesome ql logs, thanks player B for the awesome QL dirt, you both passed to player C and thanks player C for the excellent ql charcoal, thanks player D for the awesome QL iron. Now the bad news guys, all your hard work and that big pile of steel, thats all meh.... this handful here, this is the good stuff.

 

Makes you feel good about yourself....... At least once you can go it alone you don't feel like you are letting the side down.

 

And the "good stuff" would be exactly what? 90ql steel?  What's wrong with 70ql steel?  Looking at the numbers, about 2/3 of the steel from the 90 met skill run came out over 70ql.  Not too bad for only using 75ql coal.  If I was part of that "team", doing the coal (which I kind of was since it was coal I sold to them) wouldn't feel let down at all by the steel result.  What else could reasonably be expected with only 75ql coal?  I'd say to the whole team, let's up our game here guys and get me better logs rather than that "junk" all the way down to 70ql stuff I was using.  The hard part for me is actually the woodcutting part, not the coal making.  Clearly it is too hard to get great logs so lets make that easier shall we?  Nah, you want good steel in volume, you have to have great skills in every step of the process, miss one and down you go.  Team effort.

 

Now as to the difficulty (or lack thereof) in skilling coal-making, not that hard really.  And I did it the hard way by actually making coal piles rather than just spamming starter piles with coc kindling.  Way easier than the WS grind I believe.  No idea how it compares to Met since I haven't skilled that.

 

Having said all of that, I'm in favor of a 5% bump in my average coal pile ql.  Anything more would be unreasonable though I believe.  I'll do some tests over the next few days and post the results here.

[Cerberus 247]

As it would be nice to get more 90ql steel however..... I would have to say having dominated the plate sales for years, I always had plenty of 90+ ql steel and profited high enough I did not even make my own coal for most of it, I started to buy coal from Goldfever as soon as we could no longer mass build and drop piles out from carts. Hell even mining iron with 99 skill, 95ql rare pick, I still only get about 30-40% at 90+ql at best. Wurm has always been a lower percent of high ql even with high skills.

 

I'm on the fence about it regarding higher percentage of more 90ql steel. I personally found it sufficient for my shop when I was running it. Though supplying an entire kingdom with plate is another matter.

[GoldFever 299]

As promised, some data.  Used some 97ql dirt and 93.5 kindling and logs and made 4 piles.  Quality level of the piles was as follows, 82.1, 75.9, 77.3 and 74.5.  Average was 77.5.  With the 10% bonus from walnut one will produce 90 ql coal (well would have IF I had remembered to use walnut).  Average would be 85 ql.  Not bad at all in my view for the ql of the mats being about 94.  Tomorrow I'll try again and see what happens.

[Belfesar 155]

Bump

[GoldFever 299]

Some more data.  Made a pile using all 97-99ql mats, came out 79.9 ql.  Clearly 90ql coal can be done but the odds of making a pile are probably between 1 in 5 to 1 in 10.  Also, I'd like to add again that using mats above your skill level does very little to help pile ql.

 

On the other hand, I'm very comfortable stating I can make 85ql coal all day long if I have the mats.  Think I'm done posting here for now.  Got the logs on order to raise my coal making up to 96 or higher, will retest and post at that time.

 

[Jonydowy 616]

34 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

Some more data.  Made a pile using all 97-99ql mats, came out 79.9 ql.  Clearly 90ql coal can be done but the odds of making a pile are probably between 1 in 5 to 1 in 10.  Also, I'd like to add again that using mats above your skill level does very little to help pile ql.

 

On the other hand, I'm very comfortable stating I can make 85ql coal all day long if I have the mats.  Think I'm done posting here for now.  Got the logs on order to raise my coal making up to 96 or higher, will retest and post at that time.

 

 

You do know those QL materials are something that you can't snap you fingers and get them.. do you forget how many trees you have to cut and chop up and get 90+ logs for 50-100 piles..? you make it sound like everyone can do it.. yes its possible maybe to get 90ql charcoal.. if you take a month of your life to do just that and even then you don't get much to last you for a while.

 

Its easy to talk when you are next to crazy but let's face it..coal making needs a boost,even  5/10 piles to be 90 will be very good! includin the walnut bonus.

And i get that some like you and Cerberus who are concerned about more competition but the grind of metallurgy is still a pain in the ass and not many will go grind it just becouse coal  will be a bit easier to make.

[rixk 830]

8 minutes ago, Jonydowy said:

 

You do know those QL materials are something that you can't snap you fingers and get them.. do you forget how many trees you have to cut and chop up and get 90+ logs for 50-100 piles..? you make it sound like everyone can do it.. yes its possible maybe to get 90ql charcoal.. if you take a month of your life to do just that and even then you don't get much to last you for a while.

 

Its easy to talk when you are next to crazy but let's face it..coal making needs a boost,even  5/10 piles to be 90 will be very good! includin the walnut bonus.

And i get that some like you and Cerberus who are concerned about more competition but the grind of metallurgy is still a pain in the ass and not many will go grind it just becouse coal  will be a bit easier to make.

You make it sound, like everyone can get to 90 coalmaking.. Let's face it, this topic affects (and will affect) only handful of people in wurm .. Average player won't even come close.. ever.

[Jonydowy 616]

2 minutes ago, rixk said:

You make it sound, like everyone can get to 90 coalmaking.. Let's face it, this topic affects (and will affect) only handful of people in wurm .. Average player won't even come close.. ever.

 

70 is pretty damn easy but with 70 you get 45ql coal.. if you make it possible to get 70ql coal at 70 skill..i bet more people will get in to it. 

 

Everyone was an average player once..just like me and others,there are more who probably like the whole process but its just a bit to hard for them or they simply don't have the time for so much work..

 

[yasgur 30]

Hello, average player here.  Only posting because someone was curious how it worked at lower levels.

My alt has 22 coalmaking, 45 woodcutting and 45 mining.

With 35ql logs and dirt, I can get about 13 avg ql on coal piles.  The best I have seen with 44-45ql logs has been around my skill level at 21-22. The 2 dirt for those piles may have been as high as 53.

 

I have 38ql steel stored, I believe I have produced 44-45ql steel from same ql iron.

Edited September 22, 2016 by yasgur