For the attention of the Devs (Metallurgy Test Results)

[Belfesar 155]

I have just recently finished running a comparison test between myself (58 skill metallurgy) and Jonydowy (90 Skill Metallurgy) using slightly over 1k  75Ql Charcoal each and 99Ql Iron. Bear in mind, This Ql charc is about the best you can get and results from lower Ql charcoal will be a lot worse.

 

Results are below:

 

Spoiler

I would like to ask the Devs to look into Metallurgy and coal-making, The Metallurgy % of higher Ql steel is too low and coal piles do not scale correctly to skill level or Ql of mats used.

 

To put this into perspective, To make 75Ql charc you have to put a lot of effort in to gain atleast 80-90 Coal-making, 90+ Woodcutting and 90+ Digging. Plus 90+ Mining is also required to get as high Ql Iron as possible to maximise your results. Then after all that effort you are then required to grind Metallurgy to 90 to receive what is very poor results.

 

Also have to take into account  that even at 99 Plate smithing with the 30% Passive armour smith bonus, A single set of plate takes between 50-70, 90+Ql steel lumps to Imp from 85Ql- 90+Ql and you can see from my results for the effort of making and running through 1k charcoal i would get enough for maybe 4 Plate Imps at my current Metallurgy level.

 

I will be conducting one further test using 50ql Charcoal to highlight how poor the results are from Metallurgy and will add to this thread once completed.

[Baloo 709]

+1

If a manufacturer in RL got less than 10% top quality material with professional workers, he would be out of business pretty fast!

 

This definitely needs urgent and proper attention.

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Baloo

[Jonydowy 616]

Huh,where to begin,I am few of the people in this game who are crazy enough to get in to this whole thing and grind all the skills above to 90.I very much love the whole process of making steel.While grinding them i still had hope in mind that when i will have them all that high levels,life would  get easier.. but very big disappointment for me when i realised its not possible.

-Coal-making.. this one is weird one.. i even complained about it on the forums once.. it is literally impossible to get 90ql charcoal even at 99ql materials as i tested it on WU. This needs a rework!!!

I get about 40charcoal per pile IF is 70ql+.. but from 100 piles(not many could stand building so many in one round) with all meterials over 90.. only 30%(or even less) of them will be 70+ becouse the QL at creation is random so do the math and see how hard is to get high ql charcoal to do the steel i did during the test.

-Metallurgy this is one of the hardest skills to grind in wurm and very boring.. but i did it..and let me tell you,it wasnt fun!! i still can't say anything more about it as i can't get the chance to work with 90ql charcoal.. but as Belfesar said.. i think the % of getting higher ql steel is very needed so even decent skilled people can get a modest ammount of steel for their use.

 

Itotally agree with what Belfesar said,this needs to be looked at!!

 

[Retrograde 12,013]

the percentage results from the actual metallurgy look to be fine, the curve leans further towards the skill.

 

Even someone with 90+ mining wont produce 90+ ore all the time with a 75ql tool.

 

Coalmaking could do with looking at, and I'll see about getting some attention to it and whether it can be improved

[Jonydowy 616]

3 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

the percentage results from the actual metallurgy look to be fine, the curve leans further towards the skill.

 

Even someone with 90+ mining wont produce 90+ ore all the time with a 75ql tool.

 

Coalmaking could do with looking at, and I'll see about getting some attention to it and whether it can be improved

 

 

SEEM to be fine.. but they arent.. that is 21% from 2.7k steel over 90ql BUT that steel was made with 98QL iron..can the avereage wurmian get that iron so easy? I can repepeat the test with 91ql iron and you will see it wont SEEM fine then.

 

Coalmaking  it has to be improved.. this one its allways been broke and many complained about it.

[Retrograde 12,013]

3 minutes ago, Jonydowy said:

 

 

SEEM to be fine.. but they arent.. that is 21% from 2.7k steel over 90ql BUT that steel was made with 98QL iron..can the avereage wurmian get that iron so easy? I can repepeat the test with 91ql iron and you will see it wont SEEM fine then.

 

Coalmaking  it has to be improved.. this one its allways been broke and many complained about it.

the ql of the iron has no impact on the result, it's skill and "tool"(charcoal) ql

 

with 90 metallurgy skill and 75ql tools, you produced almost 50% of your actions over 80ql, pushing towards your skill. with half of those results over your skill

[Belfesar 155]

6 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

the percentage results from the actual metallurgy look to be fine, the curve leans further towards the skill.

 

Even someone with 90+ mining wont produce 90+ ore all the time with a 75ql tool.

 

Coalmaking could do with looking at, and I'll see about getting some attention to it and whether it can be improved

 

Have you gone through the effort of grinding these skills? or Have to deal with the daily struggle of maintaining high Ql Steel?, I am going to guess and say you have not.

 

The Ql of the charcoal used to conduct this test is about the highest Ql you can achieve at the moment and out of all the years of doing Plate smithing and the associated skills I have found 2 people in the whole of wurm who make and sell it very rarely because of the difficulty. If I used 50ql Charc which I will struggle myself to make the results would be far worse. I would not be able to maintain any sort of business because from past experience it would take 1-3k 50ql Charc to get enough 90+ steel to Imp just one set of plate to 90+Ql which would require 100s of coal-piles.

[Baloo 709]

15 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

The percentage results from the actual metallurgy look to be fine, the curve leans further towards the skill.

 

No, Retro - the percentage results from metallurgy are NOT fine - this is v.broken, as all who do this work will attest to.

[Retrograde 12,013]

Thus why I stated that I'll be raising coalmaking with the dev team to see if we can add means to improve production of higher quality charcoal.

 

the spread shows us that the metallurgy skill works fairly well, the issue is struggling to get higher than 70ish quality charcoal.

 

With higher quality charcoal the curve will improve further towards 90+ results

 

(and yes, I have over 85 coalmaking!)

[Belfesar 155]

Just now, Retrograde said:

Thus why I stated that I'll be raising coalmaking with the dev team to see if we can add means to improve production of higher quality charcoal.

 

the spread shows us that the metallurgy skill works fairly well, the issue is struggling to get higher than 70ish quality charcoal.

 

With higher quality charcoal the curve will improve further towards 90+ results

 

That is fair enough but still the % of higher Ql steel could do with some tweaking considering the amount of skills required in the whole process of it and like Baloo said for a supposed master metallurgist you can still only achieve 593 90+ steel lumps from a total of 2707 lumps or 21.9% and you think that is fine?

[Retrograde 12,013]

That is in line with other skills and a 75ql tool

 

improving the ql of the tool will improve the result.

[Belfesar 155]

30 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

That is in line with other skills and a 75ql tool

 

improving the ql of the tool will improve the result.

 

Charcoal at the moment can not even be put into the same context as other 75ql Mats, Even an increase of 5% at 90 Metallurgy to higher Ql steel would go a long way to Improve things.

[Retrograde 12,013]

2 minutes ago, Belfesar said:

 

Charcoal at the moment can not even be put into the same context as other 75ql Mats, Even an increase of 5% at 90 Metallurgy to higher Ql steel would go a long way to Improve things.

Charcoal works as the tool in this case.

 

Thus, improving tool ql by improving how coalmaking works will lead to a higher proportion of higher quality steel.

 

Boosting metallurgy results does not fix the issue, it simply masks the issue, the issue is that coalmaking is prooducing disproportionate results compared to skill and materials. Fixing that will improve this all round.

[griper 537]

Some "refinement process (ql increasing)" for coal and/or alloys could make things more fun for material producers.

Just saying.

[Aum 771]

i dont have coal making but i have 72 butchering and usually got all my 90ql coal from kills, so yeah i would say coal making needs a helping hand as i would rather hunt than make coal piles for my steel

[Cerberus 247]

What are you talking about? Getting 90+ metallurgy was extremely fun! *goes back to his room in insane asylum*

[MaurizioAM 919]

3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

the ql of the iron has no impact on the result, it's skill and "tool"(charcoal) ql

 

with 90 metallurgy skill and 75ql tools, you produced almost 50% of your actions over 80ql, pushing towards your skill. with half of those results over your skill

Huh? The ql of the iron has no impact on the creation ql?

[Cerberus 247]

Well, ql of iron really only effects what the top ql steel can come out to. It plays no part in %, that is for coal/tool, and skill/metallurgy. But I for one am glad the average wurmian has no idea how to get metallurgy up. It is the last skill that is still profitable. As for them being able to mine the high ql iron.... well those silly game wrecking potions.

[Noizhead 622]

The reason why things like this happen is that all rolls lower than -100 and higher than 100 are discarded and rerolled, instead of capping the result.  This is why someone with extremely high skills and item QLs still gets lousy results--for example, a miner with 99 skills and a QL95 supreme max-imbued pick only gets an average shard QL of ~85.  A player with 99 smithing, 99 metallurgy, QL95 coal, and QL99 iron to work with would only wind up with an average output of ~QL83 steel.

 

While it keeps the game from being flooded with max-QL resources, it sure is frustrating to get such lackluster returns after all that grinding.

[Gaeron 551]

I dunno, I see these kind of results with all sorts of skills, rope-making was another one where I felt I was wasting my time, rare 88ql tool 85 skill 99 materials, median point for crafted cordage was about 43 I think Bell curve was situated far too far to the left. I've given up arguing now though, creation actions give whatever they give and I just suck it up and carry on.

 

I'd say a possible re-think of the process may be in order but.... better the devil you know..

[Jonydowy 616]

15 minutes ago, Noizhead said:

The reason why things like this happen is that all rolls lower than -100 and higher than 100 are discarded and rerolled, instead of capping the result.  This is why someone with extremely high skills and item QLs still gets lousy results--for example, a miner with 99 skills and a QL95 supreme max-imbued pick only gets an average shard QL of ~85.  A player with 99 smithing, 99 metallurgy, QL95 coal, and QL99 iron to work with would only wind up with an average output of ~QL83 steel.

 

While it keeps the game from being flooded with max-QL resources, it sure is frustrating to get such lackluster returns after all that grinding.

 

 

Yeah i get all that and i understand that it doesnt have to be really easy.. but still the ammount of time we have to put in all of those skills work.. its really sad to see the final product..I'm all for hard stuff to be for dedicated people but still.. this is almost not worth the time if you wanna get in the bussines like  Belfesar,your better off diggin dirt to be honest.

 

Just some rework on coal making and a little check on metallurgy would be just fine.And if you check it closely his 58 skill result aint so far from my 90..whats the point for 90skill then.

[GoldFever 299]

What fun!  As the maker of the coal in question let me make a few observations.

 

1. I can make well over 75ql coal--by no means is it the top end of the scale for me.  My customer asked for 75ql so that is what they got.  Ask for higher ql and that is available as well, just need to discuss the price; 

2. Coal ql was already given a big boost with walnut wood adding 10% to the ql and the pile not reducing ql of the coal as it burned down--both were huge.  That doesn't really mean much for a 20ql pile but it means an 82ql walnut pile will produce 90 ql coal;

3. I haven't bothered to do the testing but it feels to me that at my skill level a simplistic approximation of the average pile ql is something along the lines of this, (average QL mats * skill/100) * 0.85.  Close enough anyway.  Where the 0.85 comes from I have no idea, I guess from what Noizhead wrote about the high end rolls being tossed.

 

At any rate, I'm perfectly fine with coal production results as they are, I don't feel frustrated at all in my coal ql vs. skill.  Here is what I do find frustrating:

A. How much easier it seems to be able to hunt for 90ql coal than it is to make it. Why can you even loot coal in the first place?  I assume since the good stuff couldn't be made at the time?

B. The walnut 10% boost to ql.  That felt to me like a stopgap way of increasing ql rather than making it easier to produce in the first place.  Just get rid of whatever is causing that 0.85 multiplier and remove the walnut bonus at the same time is my view.  A random factor that results in a 0.95 multiplier on average feels about right to me and the average ql of the coal compared to walnut piles shouldn't change. This will result in an immediate increase in my ability to make high ql coal by about 25% as I shift to oak piles.

 

In summary, can always tinker with things, but not really seeing the issue here re coal ql.

[joedobo 1,187]

more skill = more work. And that "more work" tends to follow exponential growth.

 

I often ask myself if the extra work to get best is worth it. I'm not sure if making acquiring best easier would be good. I do know I'd appreciate not have to guess at whether it's worth the extra effort to achieve that better item.

[Jonydowy 616]

13 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

What fun!  As the maker of the coal in question let me make a few observations.

 

1. I can make well over 75ql coal--by no means is it the top end of the scale for me.  My customer asked for 75ql so that is what they got.  Ask for higher ql and that is available as well, just need to discuss the price; 

2. Coal ql was already given a big boost with walnut wood adding 10% to the ql and the pile not reducing ql of the coal as it burned down--both were huge.  That doesn't really mean much for a 20ql pile but it means an 82ql walnut pile will produce 90 ql coal;

3. I haven't bothered to do the testing but it feels to me that at my skill level a simplistic approximation of the average pile ql is something along the lines of this, (average QL mats * skill/100) * 0.85.  Close enough anyway.  Where the 0.85 comes from I have no idea, I guess from what Noizhead wrote about the high end rolls being tossed.

 

At any rate, I'm perfectly fine with coal production results as they are, I don't feel frustrated at all in my coal ql vs. skill.  Here is what I do find frustrating:

A. How much easier it seems to be able to hunt for 90ql coal than it is to make it. Why can you even loot coal in the first place?  I assume since the good stuff couldn't be made at the time?

B. The walnut 10% boost to ql.  That felt to me like a stopgap way of increasing ql rather than making it easier to produce in the first place.  Just get rid of whatever is causing that 0.85 multiplier and remove the walnut bonus at the same time is my view.  A random factor that results in a 0.95 multiplier on average feels about right to me and the average ql of the coal compared to walnut piles shouldn't change. This will result in an immediate increase in my ability to make high ql coal by about 25% as I shift to oak piles.

 

In summary, can always tinker with things, but not really seeing the issue here re coal ql.

  ok,now you made me very curious,how many piles do you make to get 1k 80+ charcoal and what ql of the materials,and how often do you get 90ql charcoal becouse that is pretty much impossible. 

 

Please let me know and also what skills

[Wargasm 1,927]

The point Retro is trying to make is that Metallurgy itself is fine.  I have 58 metallurgy myself, I have seen the curves of the QL of steel lumps at various skill levels in Metallurgy.

 

A couple points to note:

1.  If the devs made it "easier" to get high ql steel lumps, you would create less <40 ql lumps, and thus Metallurgy would be even harder to skill than it is now. 

2.  It is much easier to get 90 ql iron than it is 90 ql charcoal.  If anything needs to be looked at, it's coal making, NOT Metallurgy.

 

It's not as easy as sawing 90 ql planks folks, get over it.