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Greyfox

Nerf to Hell Horse now?

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when everyone starts hitching only horses will we remove them and force everyone to use bison? and then bulls?  where does the madness end?

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1 minute ago, Xalorum said:

lately

 

Haha, good one!

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2 hours ago, Retrograde said:
The major issue here is the instant cries of "nerf!" without looking at the wide picture. currently Hell horses require zero additional skill to use vs regular horses <SNIP>

 

Let me stop you right there, Retro. A 100QL tool requires zero additional skills to use vs on that matches QL with your skill level, minus sourcing them from a skilled smith, and they offer significant advantages and outpace any other tool that's QL matches your skill.

 

Do you see where this is going? But is is better than the line about the server can't cope with the speed calculations.

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9 minutes ago, Audrel said:

server can't cope with the speed calculations

 

I'm not sure how much this has to do with anything. We have *VERY* fast mounts on many WU servers just fine.

 

Worst thing that happens if you go to fast is that the byte value for speed in the network protocol overflows and you start going backwards :P ... but that shouldn't be achievable in WO.

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Wrong game but.... so fitting and the timing so perfect (posted today, that comic)

 

cad-20160905-b0ff1.png

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Not sure if it makes a difference but since that update that was supposed to help streamline latency and server positioning I've only experienced the opposite. If the servers are having a hard time dealing with speed calculations maybe you should have a deeper look into that crap update.

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Somehow people keep posting but the number of posts in this thread never goes up. What kind of black sorcery is this?

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I feel like this game might already be hard enough and the little bug or unintended feature has been a great addition for some that have been using it. Normal horses need to have exreamly high ql and enchants to get anywhere near the speeds HH give and to be honest there are a lot of working players who do not have a ton of hours a day to spend and just like to get some things done. Fact is HH add quite a bit to help newer players with giving them a way to not have to worry about high ql and enchanted items. 5 speed HH which there have been many people I've come across willing to sell them much cheaper then you would pay for a high ql/enchanted horse gear set. 

 

Perhaps information such as being able to use HH could be added to a new player tutoriar by simply making a part of the tutorial where u have to jump on a cart with horses and then jump on a different cart with hh, would be an easy way of showing the difference without having to say much. 

 

New player experience in this game is not a strong suit. I have sat back and watched many good suggestions come from players and in response I have only seen nerfs to some things that have been in game for a long time according to many of the out cries that were never even deemed to be much of a problem. If it was not so critical to fix when it became known why is it any different now? 

 

 

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Personally this nerf would be a lot better if they boosted  unicorns to make them useful

 

Don't think i never seen unicorn being ridden 

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There's an "embark as passenger" option on unicorns that a friendly guy at a unique hunt offered up to me once, but when you use it it kicks off the rider so we didn't get very far.

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Spoiler
2 hours ago, Aeris said:

Hell horses have always been a poorly thought-out addition to the game, for many reasons, but fact is that a lot of players have become dependent on them because of other horrible decisions that followed. The devs can't just make kneejerks decisions left and right without considering how it affects the Quality of Life in the game. You can't introduce a new ice cream flavour that's tastier than the previous and worsen the QL of the cone so that the first ice cream flavour no longer fits in them only to remove the second ice cream flavour and say "YOLO".

 

Let's look at some facts here:

- Horses were bred to such an extent that the servers suffered from lag and less aggro spawns

- A separate aggro and non-aggro count was added to ensure horses would not ruin hunting

- Lots of creatures got buffed speed and buffed fighting skill, making them harder to kill

- Horses became increasingly important in order not to die

- Trading in bulks became a huge thing

- Aggressive horses, aka hell horses, were introduced and they started filling up the aggro spawn slots (seriously? First try to limit people's horse hoarding by separating the counts and then giving people aggro horses? Ok.)

- Creatures have continued to be buffed over and over to accomodate hunters, with the excuse "yolo swag u nag, u haev horses so u can outride it i u dont wanna fyte"

- Horses died left and right so people became used to using carts to protect them from wildlife

- Even after the horse killing was supposedly removed cart riding was still a vastly superior way of travelling because:
1) You can bring your alts or friends along with you and only one has to steer and
2) People figured out that since horses on carts are slow it's better to use hell horses

3) You can transport wares and bring as much cotton with you as you like when out hunting

- Horses are exposed to "accidental" disease outbursts so you may at any time lose a huge portion of your 5-speeders. Thus far this has never been a problem with hell horses

- Xanadu is still a thing, and I imagine that crossing Xanadu on a hell horse cart is a lot safer and faster than on a horse cart

 

Hell horses was never a thought-out feature, but a lot of players use them now to compensate for other poorly thought-out features. Not to mention the fact that people have spent a lot of time breeding speedy hell horses just to make cart travelling less painful and slow. I couldn't breed hell horses even if I wanted to, so those players that have bred them have spent a considerable amount of time on it I imagine.

 

It's obvious that the recent "nerfs" are part of a butt wiping that aims to remove the dangleberries that are left from old poop, so that the fresh pair of tighty whities won't become stained once they're put on. Appearance is important, but Quality of Life trumps a flashy outside every time and we as players would appreciate it if the focus was put on bugs that affect us in a bad way before non-gamebreaking things we can benefit from are removed. You may start dating someone because they are attractive but once you discover that they brush their teeth with the toilet water you're out of there, so players that come to the game for the clean appearance won't stay anyway once they're attacked by trolls when standing on the balcony of their house.

 

I put it in spoilers because logic does not work in a land of confusion and wogic. :lol:

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It doesn't help that all the easy and hard threats (PvE wise) are mixed together randomly. I probably would never have given this game a chance if my first experience was walking out of Greendog and getting 2 shot by a troll that then hangs out just outside the gate for the next few hours/days.

You'd think with multiple servers, they could have some that were set to "No hostile monsters" and others were "Hardcore murder town"

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Wish we saw more unicorns spawn in the wild :(

Personally I am more the type that want to learn to code my WU server so I can equip and hitch or ride even the dragons :P.

Way more fun than removing all the fantasy aspects of the game.

Edited by Cecci
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49 minutes ago, enoofu said:

Personally this nerf would be a lot better if they boosted  unicorns to make them useful

 

Don't think i never seen unicorn being ridden 

 

I tamed one in challenge. Yoloswaggins(I think) asked if he could be passenger. He in the end ended up tossing his huge axe? (Some heavy item) at it making it SUPER fu#king slow. Ended up killing the sweet sweet unicorn i worked hard for it all morning and got a generic 90ql weapon later on. 

 

Won't ever forget launching a dragon egg with a catapult, Good times. (Screenshots here if anyones interested. Just launching a dragon egg with a catapult: http://imgur.com/a/pJ13n#0)

Edited by akaedis

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Hi,

8 minutes ago, Cecci said:

Wish we saw more unicorns spawn in the wild :(

Be careful with what you wish!

 

I very well remember the time not this long ago (2 years?) when all of SW Indy was full of unicorns in all flavors, and nothing else! Then they suddenly stopped spawning, and since then no single unicorn has been seen anymore.

Btw., this would be a bug (the still borked spawn mechanics) that would earn praise and applause for the devs, would they finally fix it. But obviously such bugs aren't touched even with the long pole ...

 

Have fun!

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I do not believe for a moment there is some sort of 'wider picture' beyond ad-hoc fixes aimed at trying to associate 'progression' and in actuality promoting 'regression'. The reasons 'why' are jumping around and are not clear for likely a variety of reasons.

 

How simple would a 'skill check' on vehicles to see Animal_Type versus Animal_Husbandry_Skill (or Taming) be to indicate Allow:Commander/Hitch/Unhitch. This is done in a lot of places.

You leave the aggro, leave the ability to hitch-4-life and create some goofy lore backstory that old Hell Horses are too dangerous to handle and hitch.

 

Let's calculate the results:

Value(*ALL)  +  Skill Aimed Progression(1*Aligned) + Anger(0) + DevTime(-1)  = WINNINGS

 

 

See my other post if you dont understand this :

 

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2 hours ago, Darmalus said:

I probably would never have given this game a chance if my first experience was walking out of Greendog and getting 2 shot by a troll that then hangs out just outside the gate for the next few hours/days.

 

Funny thing is, that's exactly what was happening when deli opened. There was a raging troll spawner right outside GD, and spawning in just to instantly get a face full of raging troll club was pretty normal :P

 

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I have seen others mention this. But...

 

It takes what? 31 control to ride a hell horse? Why not project the skill needed to ride a mount to that exact same to command a cart pulled by them.

Yeah, it would be more work than just butchering a line of code but "if you want better, you need to work for it" to paraphrase you.

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12 minutes ago, Shazaam said:

I do not believe for a moment there is some sort of 'wider picture' beyond ad-hoc fixes aimed at trying to associate 'progression' and in actuality promoting 'regression'. The reasons 'why' are jumping around and are not clear for likely a variety of reasons.

 

How simple would a 'skill check' on vehicles to see Animal_Type versus Animal_Husbandry_Skill (or Taming) be to indicate Allow:Commander/Hitch/Unhitch. This is done in a lot of places.

You leave the aggro, leave the ability to hitch-4-life and create some goofy lore backstory that old Hell Horses are too dangerous to handle and hitch.

 

Let's calculate the results:

Value(*ALL)  +  Skill Aimed Progression(1*Aligned) + Anger(0) + DevTime(-1)  = WINNINGS

 

 

See my other post if you dont understand this :

 

 

I am out of likes so I just used words to back you up. 25 likes a day on hot topic days... too bad I can't get my likes back from removed posts. I would have 25 left still.

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12 hours ago, Retrograde said:
The major issue here is the instant cries of "nerf!" without looking at the wide picture. currently Hell horses require zero additional skill to use vs regular horses, minus sourcing them from an animal breeder, they offer significant advantages and outpace any other creature.
 
The issue with this is escalation, as time goes on it becomes the dominant strategy, and the obvious choice to the point where using regular horses is considered a waste of time, especially as hell horses become more prevalent.
 
Someone who breeds hell horses will be able to supply themselves easily, with horses lasting about 2-3 months before needing to be cycled out, their work in breeding will not be wasted, as they can easily replace the horses in this time frame.
 
As for why this bug at this time? We're in the process of moving from one bug tracker to another, as we do so, old bugs listed are raised, and we address many questions over them, some have already been allowed to remain as part of the mechanics (with neater coding) and others have been listed as bugs to be addressed. Some, like this, have been met halfway, with making allowances for it to continue as a feature, but also correcting and balancing the issue.
 

This isn't the only change coming with the update, but we're aware that this one was better to inform players of before the update to ensure that they were prepared, and continue in improving communication with changes and updates.

 

I think there are many many other bugs that would be actually older and more important to the player base than this one. Bugs that actually affect game play and cause real frustration.

 

I do not understand what you mean about hell horses requiring zero additional skill, if that is a problem then add a skill, like 1 more is going to be an issue compared to reducing quality of play time.  Once you put this fix in place....guess what they still require 0 additional skill W0AH UBER FIX IN DA HOUSE!  

Eh da shat do still stink in here...feed us some more please.

 

I understand that this game is supposed to be hard and time consuming but you (the devs) should understand you are walking a fine line between fun and pain in the rear. Once crossing over to pure pain people will go elsewhere and you will be stuck with just a pita game no one wants to pay to play. 

 

The hell cart is not a new thing and reaching for the nerf bat as soon as something does not go as "envisioned" once introduced is fine but waiting until after it has been adopted and built around is downright ludicrous. You (the devs) had plenty of time to change the mechanics, like...umm turning off the ability to be hitched and then addressing the issue rather that waiting until a large portion of your customers used something you (the devs) introduced and left as is.

 

Oh well it is your game and my money, continue down this path of making everything harder and less fun and it will still be your game but I will plan to give my money to someone else.

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So, aside from Retros non answer response.  Any one from the team gonna try to explain why It's actually necessary to nerf hell carts/wagons?

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14 hours ago, Retrograde said:
The issue with this is escalation, as time goes on it becomes the dominant strategy, and the obvious choice to the point where using regular horses is considered a waste of time, especially as hell horses become more prevalent.
 

 

God forbid that Rolf wake up one day with a newfound aversion for gatehouses.  You know, places of habitation repurposed into fence gates becoming the dominant strategy and whatnot.

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14 hours ago, Retrograde said:

It runs a check when it ages (there's many many sub ages, Old is actually aging 30 times)

 

This is the biggest problem with this new plan. If you went to a dealership and they told you they were going to attach your tires with hell lugnuts that made the car speedier, but they would come off and you would lose a tire at some random time, would you still be willing to drive the car? We as players have no clue what number stages of age these hellies are on, so we also have no way of predicting when one is going to come off and leave us stranded and possibly get us killed. The only indicator we have is the vague "mature", "aged" etc, which means that any hellie that is aged is a time bomb that can blow up in your face. So if you want to use them at all, the only safe way to do it is to immediately kill them as soon as the hit aged, and they age faster at lower ages so that time span is very short from birth to aged.

 

If you insist on doing this would it at least be possible to get a new timer on them once they hit aged? Right now I can look at a pregnancy timer so I know my horse is near delivery and shouldn't be used, it says "She will deliver in about 2 days". Maybe we could at least get "she will have a temper tantrum in about X days" timer? Then we could with SOME kind of accuracy know when they were not safe to use, which would make this entire thing a lot less ridiculous.

 

Or, if the issue is that you just don't want us to get anywhere reliably or quickly, you could also take a note from the old game Oregon Trail and just have wheels fall off the cart/wagon randomly and leave us stranded that way. At least we would have the ability to fix that while out on the road provided we are carrying tools and it is more realistic.

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Greyfox said:

So, aside from Retros non answer response.  Any one from the team gonna try to explain why It's actually necessary to nerf hell carts/wagons?

 

Retrograde's not making stuff up as he goes though, nor is he in charge of the decision making. It's his job to let us know what the team is up to so if someone from the team responds in the thread they're not doing it the right way since they're supposed to run it by the PR guy - That's the main point of the PR position, so if Retro's not communicating any solid facts it's most likely because the devs haven't revealed anything that he's allowed to mention in public forums.

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