Should Refresh be Changed?

[Tallios 307]

It was posed in the latest update possibilities.  That Refresh should be changed from

 

Current: 

Once per 18 hours;  restore 100% food, 100% water, 100% stamina, 99.99% nutrition.

 

Suggested Change:

Once per 18 hours;  Restore 100% food, 100% water, 100% stamina, 

Nutrition restored 50% base + 5% per Path of Love level over 4.

 

These changes were suggested in conjunction with the major food buffs and cooking overhaul that is soon to be published.

 

Please feel free to comment as you see fit.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Tallios

[Wargasm 1,926]

-1.  As I stated in page (9?) of the Weekly News #35, this screws over new players.  90% of the people quit this game, quit because of how long it takes to have competitive skills (mining, woodcutting, digging, body str, etc).   Compounding the situation by nerfing their nutrition because they're not lvl 13 PoL is stupid.

 

I don't see how this is even debatable.

[Tallios 307]

2 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

-1.  As I stated in page (9?) of the Weekly News #35, this screws over new players.  90% of the people quit this game, quit because of how long it takes to have competitive skills (mining, woodcutting, digging, body str, etc).   Compounding the situation by nerfing their nutrition because they're not lvl 13 PoL is stupid.

 

I don't see how this is even debatable.

 

Well see that is your perspective, but this poll and discussion is because the previous post about this was closed because the coward "got his way".   The Dev's saw fit to consider a serious change, so why not discuss it?  

 

As for the "screws over new players"  I don't know how many "new players" i've helped over the years because I care.  Along with many other people in game.  This isn't a solo MMO.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Tallios

[Retrograde 12,013]

Based off that delightful thread, the proposed changes have been scrapped. Refresh will now give 99% nutrition.

 

There will be plenty of other reasons to use the cooking system

 

Cooking and food will benefit new players much more

[Tallios 307]

6 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Based off that delightful thread, the proposed changes have been scrapped. Refresh will now give 99% nutrition.

 

There will be plenty of other reasons to use the cooking system

 

Cooking and food will benefit new players much more

 

Well I'm sorry the Dev's felt the need to walk this back.  However, as I proposed.  Why don't they just make the PoL refresh only self applicable on the meditation rug at a Path meditation spot?

 

No matter what changes or doesn't people will whine, and many will include me in with the whiners.

 

Dev's I don't envy you your jobs, but keep at it.  Some of us actually appreciate what you try to do, even if we don't agree with it.

[Wargasm 1,926]

11 minutes ago, Tallios said:

 

Well see that is your perspective,

 

No, let me stop you there.  Again, people quit because of slow skill gain in this game.  That's not my opinion, that's the TRUTH.  You can't argue with TRUTH.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Tallios said:

but this poll and discussion is because the previous post about this was closed because the coward "got his way".   The Dev's saw fit to consider a serious change, so why not discuss it?  

 

No, not because of cowardice or "getting your way", but because the forum mods don't like to see 10 threads about the same thing. Until Budda's post, there was one here on the boards (before this pointless thread), one in town square, and of course countless replies on the news thread. 

 

11 minutes ago, Tallios said:

 

As for the "screws over new players"  I don't know how many "new players" i've helped over the years because I care.  Along with many other people in game.  This isn't a solo MMO.

 

This has nothing to do with a veteran player helping a new player.  How does my involvement (or lack thereof) suddenly make a 10 ql pile of dirt give a newbie 99% nutrition under your system?  Their refresh won't give 99% until after they've been PoL for a month or better, they probably won't be able to manufacture a 90 ql rare item of any kind for a significantly longer time either.

 

[Retrograde 12,013]

The new cooking system will provide time based skillgain boosts. It will be faster than refresh.

[Tallios 307]

1 minute ago, Wargasm said:

No, let me stop you there.  Again, people quit because of slow skill gain in this game.  That's not my opinion, that's the TRUTH.  You can't argue with TRUTH.

 

While yes, some people "quit" because of slow skill gain.  I'm almost certain more people quit over lack of content or "broken PvP"

2 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

No, not because of cowardice or "getting your way", but because the forum mods don't like to see 10 threads about the same thing. Until Budda's post, there was one here on the boards (before this pointless thread), one in town square, and of course countless replies on the news thread. 

 

This is under the "suggestions tab" for the whole point of its still a suggestion.  Period.  And many of the 10+ posts don't count because they are mostly knee-jerk crybaby reactions.  This thread isn't pointless, it is to discuss what merits there were to the change, what could be change or what different direction might be desired more.

 

5 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

This has nothing to do with a veteran player helping a new player.  How does my involvement (or lack thereof) suddenly make a 10 ql pile of dirt give a newbie 99% nutrition under your system?  Their refresh won't give 99% until after they've been PoL for a month or better, they probably won't be able to manufacture a 90 ql rare item of any kind for a significantly longer time either.

 

Actually it does, because it's the veterans who can supply the better foods, perhaps in exchange for work.  That's what happened when I first started.

 

The rare sac'ables under the new system provide a reward as was outlined by the dev's proposal.  So yeah it' doesn't give 99%, but it does give something.  And that something is a huge plus still to a new player.

 

As for the refresh changes it was an attempt to moderate the total results of the power, allowing for people who have spent God only knows how long meditating to have a true benefit and claim.

 

As for the crafting of a 90+ quality rare, very few people would sacrifice those kinds of rares.  The rares that are usually sac'ed are the rare rock shards, dirt, sprouts etc.  The generally useless items.

[Tallios 307]

6 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

The new cooking system will provide time based skillgain boosts. It will be faster than refresh.

 

Aye, but I gather by many of the comments.  That I was one of the few who actually read ALL of the post.  not just "OMG Refresh's are being nerfed!"

 

But this is off topic, I wanted this post to debate or discuss for anyone interested.  What if any changes to Refresh they would like to see, or not.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Tallios

[Wargasm 1,926]

Look, I'm not disagreeing about the entire overhaul of cooking.  I'm all for cooking special foods that restore stamina (currently sandwiches) or maybe a special meal that uses fetta cheese, troll gland and whatever else to give me a 10 minute buff to carpentry or imping or whatever. 

 

Actually it does, because it's the veterans who can supply the better foods, perhaps in exchange for work.  That's what happened when I first started.

 

And we can already do that.  My 75 QL meals give newbies 80%+ nutrition if they bother to heat them up in a forge and eat them.

 

As for the crafting of a 90+ quality rare, very few people would sacrifice those kinds of rares.  The rares that are usually sac'ed are the rare rock shards, dirt, sprouts etc.  The generally useless items.

 

All the more reason I shouldn't have to waste the 90 ql rare iron lumps for nutrition because it would be the only way to get high nutrition from saccing.  I don't know about you, but a 10 ql rare, even one that is useful for imping (a log, a lump, etc) is next to worthless for imping.

 

Your only argument here is creativity and originality.  Fine.  We have creativity and originality, such as the new colored cloth pants/sleeves/etc.  Doesn't mean I'm forced to wear them, and all players shouldn't be forced to endure less skill gain because of your "harmless suggestion".

 

 

 

 

 

[Etherdrifter 2,512]

I'm not quite seeing the logic in the arguments on this thread:

 

PoL Level 4 change => screwing over new players => bad idea

 

That second implication is valid, I'd challenge the first one. 

 

99% nutrition gives a 1% skillgain bonus (as cited here:

Spoiler

 

) which, at lower skill levels, is absolutely nothing since the existing skillgain is so immense already.  The potential argument that it hits their food supply is also ridiculous since food on wurm is insanely easy to find (even raw).

 

So the argument that it hurts new players appears invalid.

 

The argument that it harms existing players who worked so hard to get level 4 PoL also seems invalid since 20 meditation is easy to get.

 

The only people hurt are free players who would no longer be able to live on 99% nutrition for that 1% skillgain bonus they'll never use.

 

So the only remaining argument is "it will be a chore" and "I'll have to grind a new skill up"; but surely this is an argument put forward before for other changes that were shot down by the same players complaining now.

 

Fun hint: Logging on a free toon, moving them from where you left them to either dig out a tunnel block/cut down a rogue tree on your lawn/re-imp a statue is a HUGE chore for priests, lets remove that chore too

[Wargasm 1,926]

I refuse to believe that 99 nutrition only equates to 1% skill gain.  Even if that is the case, my argument is not invalid, it's just lessened.  Nutrition should matter more than 1%, especially if you get 10% for merely spending 5 days praying as a Vynora follower and never havnig to touch it ever again.

[Tallios 307]

18 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

 especially if you get 10% for merely spending 5 days praying as a Vynora follower and never havnig to touch it ever again.

personally I've always thought this should be in the Domain of Vynora and based on the strength of the domain.

[Retrograde 12,013]

23 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

I refuse to believe that 99 nutrition only equates to 1% skill gain.  Even if that is the case, my argument is not invalid, it's just lessened.  Nutrition should matter more than 1%, especially if you get 10% for merely spending 5 days praying as a Vynora follower and never havnig to touch it ever again.

1% for every 10 nutrition over 60, so 1% at 60 nut, 2% at 70, 3% at 80, 4% at 90, and 5% at 99.

 

With 70ish cooking skill 80-90 nutrition food is easily obtained.

 

It's simply another skill that has a reason to raise it, as opposed to path of love meaning you can get it and forget about it completely, or that it renders cooking absolutely useless as it's a less effective manner.

 

This system will mean that cooking is clearly the better option, with providing larger skill gain boosts and essentially equal nutrition % gains, while refresh will only offer the minimal 5% from being 99 nutrition.

 

It also rewards players who grind path of love beyond level 4, and means it improves as you go on.

 

From a development perspective, requiring 10 days from starting in order to render cooking utterly useless is not intended, and is simply the result of gaming the system.

 

While nutrition boosts itself will not be touched with the new cooking system, it's clear alternate ways to make cooking more rewarding will come in.

[Alexgopen 2,376]

1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

1% for every 10 nutrition over 60, so 1% at 60 nut, 2% at 70, 3% at 80, 4% at 90, and 5% at 99.

 

With 70ish cooking skill 80-90 nutrition food is easily obtained.

 

It's simply another skill that has a reason to raise it, as opposed to path of love meaning you can get it and forget about it completely, or that it renders cooking absolutely useless as it's a less effective manner.

 

This system will mean that cooking is clearly the better option, with providing larger skill gain boosts and essentially equal nutrition % gains, while refresh will only offer the minimal 5% from being 99 nutrition.

 

It also rewards players who grind path of love beyond level 4, and means it improves as you go on.

 

From a development perspective, requiring 10 days from starting in order to render cooking utterly useless is not intended, and is simply the result of gaming the system.

 

While nutrition boosts itself will not be touched with the new cooking system, it's clear alternate ways to make cooking more rewarding will come in.

 

How about stealing, which was rendered useless by the new permission system making you unable to even attempt to break the law on deeds whether they have a templar or not?

[Retrograde 12,013]

4 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

 

How about stealing, which was rendered useless by the new permission system making you unable to even attempt to break the law on deeds whether they have a templar or not?

Permissions issues are a bug and have been addressed in the new Pvp discussions, not really the topic here

[Pandalet 1,848]

I've always felt the PoL refresh was a bit overpowered - compared to the other paths, where the really useful abilities come at level 9 or 11, both the good PoL ones are available by level 7 (30 skill).  This feels unbalanced to me, so the idea of having some incentive to keep progressing on PoL seems good.  So, make refresh start at 50% at level 4 (which takes 15 skill and 10 days of question waiting), and let it improve by 10% per level after that - this means you're getting full benefit at level 9 (50 skill, about 4 months min total time), which compares nicely to how the PoK get info works. 

 

That way, naked newbies huddling under their rocks still get some benefit from getting the basic refresh, albeit not quite as much; those who use refresh as an alternative to cooking can still get that, albeit with a bit more work; and folks who have put lots of time and effort into PoL advancement are unaffected (assuming they're at or nearly at level 9).  PoL becomes more balanced and less front-loaded.

 

In short, the idea of the nerf is a good one, it's just nerfed a bit too hard - make refresh give full effect by level 9 (50 skill).

[Eobersig 1,004]

I voted with Yes here - yes, it should be changed - and the original design from Retro's News of the Week would have been a good starting point.

 

Sadly it turned out that a discussion was not possible because a number of players (not even that many different players when you count them) started complaining and got all worked up about it. With Buddha then waving the white flag pretty fast we'll never get a sensible discussion about it now.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

11 hours ago, Tallios said:

 

While yes, some people "quit" because of slow skill gain.  I'm almost certain more people quit over lack of content or "broken PvP"

 

I've tried to get people to play, and they quit either because EVERYTHING including skill gain goes so slow, or because authorities condoned griefing. I've never gone near PVP and don't feel the need for it. New content is nice to get now and again, as long as things I rely on aren't nerfed or I'm forced to waste more time because of the new content. You probably get your new-joining friends to try PVP right away so that seems to be the main reason they are quitting, it's central to their experience and too lacking.

Edited September 3, 2016 by LorraineJ

[LorraineJ 1,099]

4 hours ago, Pandalet said:

I've always felt the PoL refresh was a bit overpowered - compared to the other paths, where the really useful abilities come at level 9 or 11, both the good PoL ones are available by level 7 (30 skill).  This feels unbalanced to me, so the idea of having some incentive to keep progressing on PoL seems good.  So, make refresh start at 50% at level 4 (which takes 15 skill and 10 days of question waiting), and let it improve by 10% per level after that - this means you're getting full benefit at level 9 (50 skill, about 4 months min total time), which compares nicely to how the PoK get info works. 

 

If you could have argued this back when the game was originally being programmed, ok that might be a nice idea, but it's damn annoying to apply the change now once people have already invested a lot of time into meditating which is boring as hell and takes forever with all the long minutes spent with no gain. I've got four alts that did the PoL path. The magic grass they can make needs re-enchanting a few times each week. Now the refresh is going to suck too? I spent too much boring time grinding up that path. That's why people are complaining; plus, not everyone has all day to play, and they don't want to spend some of their precious time cooking now too.

Edited September 3, 2016 by LorraineJ

[Ostentatio 1,970]

1 hour ago, LorraineJ said:

 

If you could have argued this back when the game was originally being programmed, ok that might be a nice idea, but it's damn annoying to apply the change now once people have already invested a lot of time into meditating which is boring as hell and takes forever with all the long minutes spent with no gain. I've got four alts that did the PoL path. The magic grass they can make needs re-enchanting a few times each week. Now the refresh is going to suck too? I spent too much boring time grinding up that path. That's why people are complaining; plus, not everyone has all day to play, and they don't want to spend some of their precious time cooking now too.

 

This isn't the sort of game where "design everything right the first time" is a valid argument. This game has grown slowly and organically over the course of more than a decade, and there are bound to be changes that are disruptive in the short term. It's happened before, and it'll undoubtedly happen again. You just can't make the game better sometimes without that occurring, and all you can do is compensate people when possible, like for instance letting people switch meditation paths when changes are made to them... although that's a reason I'd prefer an overhaul to all of meditation at once, as opposed to piecemeal changes like we've been seeing.

 

I mean, keep in mind "when the game was originally being programmed" half of its current features didn't even exist. There was no nutrition in the first place.

[Kadore 926]

4 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

 

This isn't the sort of game where "design everything right the first time" is a valid argument. This game has grown slowly and organically over the course of more than a decade, and there are bound to be changes that are disruptive in the short term. It's happened before, and it'll undoubtedly happen again. You just can't make the game better sometimes without that occurring, and all you can do is compensate people when possible, like for instance letting people switch meditation paths when changes are made to them... although that's a reason I'd prefer an overhaul to all of meditation at once, as opposed to piecemeal changes like we've been seeing.

 

I mean, keep in mind "when the game was originally being programmed" half of its current features didn't even exist. There was no nutrition in the first place.

People that usually white knight so feverishly are newer to Wurm and haven't lived through much of the last decade of changes, all they have for reference is what they have read.

 

I can't help but always see you get on people opposed to change when you have no clue how ###### up things can get here, I've had deed tokens disappear, god knows how many locks and animals get loose, lost stuff crossing borders, characters stuck in the void etc.  

 

Trust is a 2 way street and given some bad things in the past it's not always easy to support every change at face value no matter how they choose to spin it.

[Neville 166]

I don't see any issue with buffs and nerfs so long as the skills that are affected by those buffs and nerfs don't end up being less useful than they were previously. For example, if cooking gave me X% skill bonus in a skill and refresh gave me 99% nutrition, why wouldn't I want to do both? Refresh wouldn't have to change and I'd have enough incentive to want to skill up cooking now because it gives me a separate bonus from Refresh.

 

Edit:

What if you ditch this: "High nutrition will give you a skill gain bonus. For every increase of 10% nutrition over 50%, there is an increase of 1% skill gain."

And make it a cooking only skill gain bonus. Refresh would still give 99% nutrition (just no skill bonus).

In this case, what you would do is eat first to get your skill bonus, then refresh to get you back up to 99% nutrition.

Don't flame me it's just an idea that came into my head at the moment.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Neville

[Tallios 307]

5 hours ago, LorraineJ said:

 

I've tried to get people to play, and they quit either because EVERYTHING including skill gain goes so slow, or because authorities condoned griefing. I've never gone near PVP and don't feel the need for it. New content is nice to get now and again, as long as things I rely on aren't nerfed or I'm forced to waste more time because of the new content. You probably get your new-joining friends to try PVP right away so that seems to be the main reason they are quitting, it's central to their experience and too lacking.

 

Well when I say new content, I'm not talking "new clothes" or a different way to cook.  I'm talking about things like developing Goblins and Trolls to have tribes.  Better tactics, maybe some salvageable gear?  Towers and spirit guards that could rely on logistics not coin.  Maybe this is what you would like, maybe not.  let me know.

[Cecci 1,609]

Troll tribes?

When people start thinking in a way that promotes an increase of players things will improve.

But all I see are people that think of their own gaming rather than the survival of this game.

The newbies with low stamina/nutrition can't even run away from ONE troll.