PvP Changes discussion

[changer 459]

11 hours ago, Wonderer said:

I'm sure that if the devs combine proper pvp fixes with the proposed map reset/merge it would most likely be a great success, just my 10 cents pls no haterino.

i'd rather like a full reset than just map reset t b h

[Alexgopen 2,376]

15 hours ago, Budda said:

With the BS>DR curve proposals I'm still wary of how these will play out with basically every account getting a significant buff.

 

I suggest adding them in conjunction with a SOFT dr cap at around 90%.  This would result in accounts being able to reach a max effective health of about 10x the default health, but would also require all available DR methods to get to this point.  This would not be the same as a hard cap, where you are still scaling toward 100 but cut off at 90, because that would let you just swap out superior armor for faster armor when you hit the cap.  With a soft cap at 90, you are continually scaling toward 90 instead of 100, so at most players would have 1000% the health of a noob instead of the currently possible 90800% (when I fought nahjo he had 7900% the default health, and I had only 870%.  That's the power of DR stacking in the upper 90's).

 

A soft DR cap at 90 could be achieved by simply multiplying final DR by a factor of .9, as opposed to taking min(.9,DR).    If you want veterans to be more than 10x tankier than new players, then you could change the soft cap to 95% DR (20x health).  I wouldn't suggest going any higher than that, because the entire problem of DR stacking is that each little point of DR in the 90's has an extreme affect on your effective health. 

 

Added soft DR cap option to see how a soft cap would affect DR/health:

http://codehost.tumblr.com/

 

 

With the soft cap on DR being 100% (current method) health is scaling toward infinity.  This is most evident when players get in the upper 90s% of DR.

 

If we place the soft cap on DR instead at 90%, then health will be scaling toward 10x the default.

 

 

Try out Zeke's curve in conjunction with 90DR soft cap on my damage calculator and compare it to the current method.  I think it's looking pretty good.

 

Here's a comparison with armor and bs for a fairly average mid range fighter:

 

Standard BS curve + 100 Soft DR Cap

 

Zeke's BS curve + 90 Soft DR Cap

 

Additional comparisons hidden:

Spoiler

80ql 25str Standard

 

80ql 25str Zeke+90softcap

 

----------------------------------

 

80ql 70str lightly stacked Standard

 

80ql 70str lightly stacked Zeke+90softcap

 

----------------------------------

 

80ql 70str highly stacked Standard

 

80ql 70str highly stacked Zeke+90softcap

 

It appears this also closes the gap in armor type damage reduction somewhat, potentially giving lighter armors a place in PVP.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Alexgopen

[Zekezor 3,188]

Thats an excellent way to avoid overkill damage reduction.

[MaurizioAM 919]

Can you show a comparison of the soft cap calculations vs a 25 str account please

[Zekezor 3,188]

1 minute ago, MaurizioAM said:

Can you show a comparison of the soft cap calculations vs a 25 str account please

http://codehost.tumblr.com/

Go there.

[Alexgopen 2,376]

44 minutes ago, MaurizioAM said:

Can you show a comparison of the soft cap calculations vs a 25 str account please

 

added to spoiler

[Zekezor 3,188]

There is an important diffrense in how this affects SUPERlategame armour/buffstacking balance.

As seen in the example above by alex a regular 50 bs acc wearing 80ql steel wont notice almost any diffrense

However Endgame accs will.

 

Pretty alright fighter

70BS+90QL+Standard:

Steel vs Glim: 47.6% hp increase

Cloth vs Glim: 191.2% hp increase

70BS+90QL+My curve+90SC:

Steel vs Glim: 16.6% hp increase

Cloth vs Glim: 66.2% hp increase

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rek'em fighters

70BS+90QL+Standard+SOTG+Smoke+Tome+Continium+champ

Steel vs Glim: 47.7% hp increase

Cloth vs Glim: 190.9% hp increase

70BS+90QL+My curve+90SC+SOTG+Smoke+Tome+Continium:

Steel vs Glim: 6% hp increase

Cloth vs Glim: 24.4% hp increase

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Godtier accounts

90BS+90QL+Standard+SOTG+Smoke+Tome+Continium+champ:

Steel vs Glim: 47.7% hp increase

Cloth vs Glim: 190.8% hp increase

 

90BS+90QL+My curve+90SC+SOTG+Smoke+Tome+Continium:

Steel vs Glim: 4.9% hp increase

Cloth vs Glim: 20% hp increase

 

 

This also makes super highend accs a lot squishier at godtiers.

 

90BS+90QL+SOTG+Smoke+Tome+Continium+champ:

-Cloth-

Standard: 2006% effective hp

Zeke+90C: 746% effective hp

-Steel-

Standard: 3949% effective hp

Zeke+90SC: 853% effective hp

-Glim-

Zeke+90SC: 895% effective hp

Standard: 5833% effective hp

 

Regular 45 BS acc VS 90BS+90QL+SOTG+Smoke+Tome+Continium+champ:

-Cloth-

Standard: 807.6% extra hp

Zeke+90SC: 136.8% extra hp

-Steel-

Standard: 807.6% extra hp

Zeke+90SC: 79.57% extra hp

-Glim-

Standard: 807.6% extra hp

Zeke+90SC: 56.4% extra hp

 

So in general a person with 45BS (player after a year or so) will face someone 9 times stronger than themself currently, but with the softcap they will face someone 136% to 56% stronger dependant on armour.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Zekezor

[Hexproof 496]

Hell horses are to fast

 

an idea for hell horses to not make them useless is have a built in chain barding and move as fast as a normal horses top speed with barding

 

its almost impossible fighting on horse back with the amount of lag na players get

Edited August 10, 2016 by Hexproof

[Zekezor 3,188]

16 minutes ago, Hexproof said:

Hell horses are to fast

 

an idea for hell horses to not make them useless is have a built in chain barding and move as fast as a normal horses top speed with barding

You mean... the old tankhorses?

Did you forget about them and their OPness?

I agree HH's are too fast, but the old tankhorses were just as bad.

nvm, missread and didnt notice the "with barding".

Edited August 10, 2016 by Zekezor

[Alexgopen 2,376]

Correction: Hellhorses with oakshell are too fast.

[Hexproof 496]

4 minutes ago, Zekezor said:

You mean... the old tankhorses?

Did you forget about them and their OPness?

I agree HH's are too fast, but the old tankhorses were just as bad.

a normal horses top speed is like 25km/h 

 

the old "tank horses" were super fast and tanky.. im not asking to make them dragons.. just a normal barded hell horse's toughness now

3 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

Correction: Hellhorses with oakshell are too fast.

no i mean just hell horses in general.. even barded hell horses go over 40km/h

[Zekezor 3,188]

7 minutes ago, Hexproof said:

a normal horses top speed is like 25km/h

Wat.

HH got a 20% faster topspeed... We both know HH dont go 30km/h.

nvm, missread and didnt notice the "with barding".

Edited August 10, 2016 by Zekezor

[Alexgopen 2,376]

2 minutes ago, Hexproof said:

no i mean just hell horses in general.. even barded hell horses go over 40km/h

 

No they don't.

 

It's been a long time since you've had to deal with not having oakshell hasn't it.

 

Here in hots we've had to use bardings all along

[dingov 826]

nvm

Edited August 10, 2016 by dingov

[changer 459]

2 hours ago, Alexgopen said:

Correction: Hellhorses with oakshell are too fast.

correction: all hellhorses and any horse/animal/unidentified flying or walking object (UFOWO) that has a speed over 35kmh are too fast

[Redd 4,281]

Zeke with those changes, considering the DR difference between players with weaker armours being so small, wouldnt cloth become the new meta for movement speed?

[MrGARY 12,421]

Problem with hell horses and oakshell isn't just the fact they go full speed with armor, its that the armor is the highest dr armor in the game (80% dr) vs the toughest of three bardings (55% dr if it's like chain armor).  That difference alone is massive and not available to everyone equally unless you decide to go fo/paaw priest

 

Just remove oakshell from non-players, ez

[changer 459]

18 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

Problem with hell horses and oakshell isn't just the fact they go full speed with armor, its that the armor is the highest dr armor in the game (80% dr) vs the toughest of three bardings (55% dr if it's like chain armor).  That difference alone is massive and not available to everyone equally unless you decide to go fo/paaw priest

 

Just remove oakshell from non-players, ez

remove oakshell from fo and you got another core god that is useless outside from heal (which probably already useless now after they changed it)

 

player gods was a mistake, even more so when its built completely on whoever is the biggest freedomer and who's the luckiest

[Wargasm 1,928]

I am still failing to see how a map reset is going to fix PvP.

[Propheteer 7,139]

14 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

I am still failing to see how a map reset is going to fix PvP.

It doesn't fix things, however what it does do:

 

Breathes life into the server. A lot of people are excited for new maps and old players will return and new players will give it a shot, some who have never PvPed before. Most might not stay, some might.

The additional population for the coming months makes the overbearing balance issues not as obvious, which makes the game more fun.

The more PvP is self explanatory

 

Plus it gives everyone a fresh start, a lot of people try new kingdoms and new strategies on new maps.

 

If used without meaningful changes during or after its release, it will flop, like Epic.

If used before meaningful changes but during development, unlike how Epic was left alone, it will give life to the game until PvP changes can carry it the rest of the way and has a solid chance to be a success.

If it is used when a combat patch is released, it will likely be a success.

 

All of the above is with a very good mechanic change in its entirety in mind, currently you have to work 7-8x harder as an attacker to get anything done.

 

If the core mechanics of the game aren't changed, then, the only way to play would be with a reset every so often.

 

Edited August 10, 2016 by Propheteer

[changer 459]

13 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

I am still failing to see how a map reset is going to fix PvP.

it wont

 

full on reset every few years or so is the only viable pvp setting

[Wargasm 1,928]

14 minutes ago, changer said:

it wont

 

full on reset every few years or so is the only viable pvp setting

 

The majority of the changes discussed in this thread pertain to DR, direct PvP combat and boat fights.  There are very few legitimate suggestions contained in this thread (much less agreed upon) for raiding and defending deeds, it it seems to me that would be 80%+ of the justification for a map reset. 

 

 

[Zekezor 3,188]

7 hours ago, Redd said:

Zeke with those changes, considering the DR difference between players with weaker armours being so small, wouldnt cloth become the new meta for movement speed?

*ahem*

forgot to mention when champ status was active. ops

 

With "only" all of the valrei bonuses and SOTG the diffrense is 35% between cloth and glim @ 90BS. 42% @ 70BS. 51% @ 50BS.

Without all the valrei stuff and just SOTG its: 43% @ 90bs. 51% @ 70bs. 62% @ 50BS.

 

And uh.... actually no, cloth wouldnt be the meta i think.

Chain would probably open up. It has pretty sweet slash glance rates. decent DR and decent speed.

But then people may counter with crushing weapons in which case cloth would be ideal.

But at the same time people would desire heavier armor for ships and perhaps heavy mounted skirmishes... where plate would be sweet. (especially on ships due to the insane glance rate vs piercing)

Overall I think armour would need some tuning.

Armor atm isnt balanced at all to begin with. It's just Drake/Scale/glim/serryl atm and if the player lacks the special-resource armorsets then its regular steel. Leaving the other 4 sets unused.

 

But thats why I made the post.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Zekezor

[MrGARY 12,421]

8 hours ago, changer said:

remove oakshell from fo and you got another core god that is useless outside from heal (which probably already useless now after they changed it)

 

player gods was a mistake, even more so when its built completely on whoever is the biggest freedomer and who's the luckiest

 

Did I say remove oakshell from fo at all anywhere?  No, just removing from making an animal not a player ridiculously overpowered, I believe you guys even complained about it when a couple MR used it to escape from a stealth trap... 

 

Dunno how it's useless...  light of fo is always good, especially with the buff/nerf combo it's getting which sounds like it will be more reliable.  Heal will still be very strong.  Cure spells in general are incredibly handy to have around, no aggro from most mobs is super handy especially when you get hell horse+ champ pet combo

 

I agree player gods were a mistake, but it did open up one thing, that template gods desperately need some balancing on both wl/bl parts.  As I've said before, replace aosp on Mag with web armor, give Mag cure light and true hit, the ability to bash, and woodcut on top of mining.  Give Lib aosp along side web, and LT, and the ability to catapult.  Fo could maybe use some kind off aggressive spell rather than pure defensive (which often allows extra aggression..), and vyn is pretty well set off.  Basically encourage Mag being the same pvp based god as Lib/player gods are, with Fo a good supportive role, and Vyn a good balance between pvp support and enchanting.  Oh, on epic just let every god sac veggies for favor, who cares about making yoyos/locks/whatever anymore...

[Alexgopen 2,376]

8 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

Did I say remove oakshell from fo at all anywhere?  No, just removing from making an animal not a player ridiculously overpowered, I believe you guys even complained about it when a couple MR used it to escape from a stealth trap... 

 

Dunno how it's useless...  light of fo is always good, especially with the buff/nerf combo it's getting which sounds like it will be more reliable.  Heal will still be very strong.  Cure spells in general are incredibly handy to have around, no aggro from most mobs is super handy especially when you get hell horse+ champ pet combo

 

I agree player gods were a mistake, but it did open up one thing, that template gods desperately need some balancing on both wl/bl parts.  As I've said before, replace aosp on Mag with web armor, give Mag cure light and true hit, the ability to bash, and woodcut on top of mining.  Give Lib aosp along side web, and LT, and the ability to catapult.  Fo could maybe use some kind off aggressive spell rather than pure defensive (which often allows extra aggression..), and vyn is pretty well set off.  Basically encourage Mag being the same pvp based god as Lib/player gods are, with Fo a good supportive role, and Vyn a good balance between pvp support and enchanting.  Oh, on epic just let every god sac veggies for favor, who cares about making yoyos/locks/whatever anymore...

 

always made me sad that i could pick and bash but not catapult as lib

 

busting into stuff is my favorite thing