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Retrograde

PvP Changes discussion

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

Or modify how arrows work against shields?

 

Would having arrows heavily damage/destroy shields just mean everyone carries around 10 shields?

 

You could just repair your shield constantly and still be invincible.

 

See@Alexgopenvideo from the pvp changes testing feedback thread

 

 

Edited by blayze

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5 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Or modify how arrows work against shields?

 

Would having arrows heavily damage/destroy shields just mean everyone carries around 10 shields?

 

Shields already take insane amounts of damage from normal combat, especially when a maul is involved (or troll)

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2 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Or modify how arrows work against shields?

 

Would having arrows heavily damage/destroy shields just mean everyone carries around 10 shields?

 

just adds to choresonline having to reimp your shield if you don't die/res works, is a buff to rare+ shields if they take less damage, and just means whoever doesn't beat the repairing game is now a sitting duck for slaughter with no shield

 

What if shields counted as an "armor" vs arrows?  You can block them 100%, or you can partially block but still take damage?  This way it's in the middle of being unhittable and guaranteed death.  Not as straight forward as 50% block means 50% dmg taken, just the general idea out there

 

Also have to realize buffing archery on boats puts it more in favor of requiring heal

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Just now, MrGARY said:

 

just adds to choresonline having to reimp your shield if you don't die/res works, is a buff to rare+ shields if they take less damage, and just means whoever doesn't beat the repairing game is now a sitting duck for slaughter with no shield

 

What if shields counted as an "armor" vs arrows?  You can block them 100%, or you can partially block but still take damage?  This way it's in the middle of being unhittable and guaranteed death.  Not as straight forward as 50% block means 50% dmg taken, just the general idea out there

 

Also have to realize buffing archery on boats puts it more in favor of requiring heal

 

Partially block will just encourage gatehops to an insane degree even more than they are now.

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On 8/8/2016 at 3:51 AM, Budda said:

Another possibility that was just brought up to me is having a hard cap on DR.

 

Would mean that all the stacking bonuses that are currently in the game would do nothing extra after a certain point, but if you're one of those people that has all of those stacked bonuses currently, it opens up options of using different armour types that are more rarely (or never) used, like leather etc without suffering with a lower DR than others with plate or scale.

 

Would likely need a fair bit of balancing and tweaking to get it right, but could be an option.

 

Newer players would be less reliant on getting all of the stacking bonuses to compete, and could focus on the few to get them to the acceptable mark.

Here is what i see wrong with a hard cap on DR...

 

If there is a hard cap that means there will be less of a reason to skill up things like str once you reach that cap. Yes yes many people will argue that u still can because it means you raise your ability to wear lower end armor and still have the same cap... But think about that for 1 min.... That just means that yet again vets greatly benefit over newer players... Newer players in order to reach that cap will have to make it up by using the best armor while vets can just toss on some cloth or leather because they might be stacked with sorcery items plus sotg along with high str.

This would be counter active to the curve adjustment you are tring to make with the DR which can be a good thing.

 

If the focus is how do we keep new players interested or how do we keep them in general, well then we have to do it in ways that makes them viable in a group situation. The changes to armor DR and an addition of DR curve would help this subject greatly. Honestly Wurm needs to also consider slightly faster skil gains to a level that does not hurt the game.  .5x the skill gain till 40 or 50.. 

 

The DR curve chart in my opinion is pretty decent on the lower end but its to restictive on the higher end. I do however feel that .8 reduction at 100 str is far to much but currently on that curve it looks to be at about .58... My opinion would be to raise that to a cap of around .62 -.65 and make the the taper off point at around 60 - 65 str.. This way it will help bridge a little bit more of a gap in the higher account ranges. The cross over would be around 75 -80 str vs the 70 it is shown now.

Edited by MaurizioAM

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35 minutes ago, MaurizioAM said:

Here is what i see wrong with a hard cap on DR...

 

If there is a hard cap that means there will be less of a reason to skill up things like str once you reach that cap. Yes yes many people will argue that u still can because it means you raise your ability to wear lower end armor and still have the same cap... But think about that for 1 min.... That just means that yet again vets greatly benefit over newer players... Newer players in order to reach that cap will have to make it up by using the best armor while vets can just toss on some cloth or leather because they might be stacked with sorcery items plus sotg along with high str.

This would be counter active to the curve adjustment you are tring to make with the DR which can be a good thing.

 

If the focus is how do we keep new players interested or how do we keep them in general, well then we have to do it in ways that makes them viable in a group situation. The changes to armor DR and an addition of DR curve would help this subject greatly. Honestly Wurm needs to also consider slightly faster skil gains to a level that does not hurt the game.  .5x the skill gain till 40 or 50.. 

 

The DR curve chart in my opinion is pretty decent on the lower end but its to restictive on the higher end. I do however feel that .8 reduction at 100 str is far to much but currently on that curve it looks to be at about .58... My opinion would be to raise that to a cap of around .62 -.65 and make the the taper off point at around 60 - 65 str.. This way it will help bridge a little bit more of a gap in the higher account ranges. The cross over would be around 75 -80 str vs the 70 it is shown now.

 

So something like this?

 

6df02d81d48b88dbaa24ab968b3b1ef5.png

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1 hour ago, Propheteer said:

 

Partially block will just encourage gatehops to an insane degree even more than they are now.

 

So will the severe nerf that was proposed in the testing thread, since it's the only way to prevent dying to something you can't do a thing about

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40 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

 

So will the severe nerf that was proposed in the testing thread, since it's the only way to prevent dying to something you can't do a thing about

 

 

And i disagreed with that one too...

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1 hour ago, MrGARY said:

 

So will the severe nerf that was proposed in the testing thread, since it's the only way to prevent dying to something you can't do a thing about

 

Except you can not stand in front of a deed with 15 people shooting at you without an excape rout or cotten. There are pleanty of way to counter archery. Out healing the extreamly low dps is easy even if your by your self. If your raiding then build a wall (takes literally 10 seconds with bricks). You can hide behind a hill and you will be out of sight. Jump into a building or mine. Run out of range. Run though trees (reduces the chance to get hit). Have the high ground. The list goes on. It makes sense that if you made a really bad move that you will have to pay for it.

 

Sure the nurf the I purposed is harsh but it would still take around 150 arrows (4 quivers) to kill a single person in person in plate with a shield. At that rate outhealing is still extreamly easy and if you are really in such a bad position where you dont have cotten or a friend to heal you or a way out, you should die. 

 

People are going to gate hop no matter what, its just a overpowered stragity in the game. But it should not be a justification to make archery compleatly useless by giving people invinsibility to archery.

Edited by blayze

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3 hours ago, Alexgopen said:

 

So something like this?

 

6df02d81d48b88dbaa24ab968b3b1ef5.png

Im thinking more like this.. And ive edited my max based on .6 so just .02 more then budda. I based that on thinking how many other benefits 100 str actually gives a player.. Dmg and so on.  Here is my graph. Sorry its hand drawn i didnt have time to mess on a comp.

 

My line is the black line. Basically its not just one straight curve. Str plays its own part with dmg as its benefactor. Its not perfect but im trying to think outside the box with seeing some comments of concerns. What i was trying to do there is bring the DR back a bit closer to wjat it is now with the 35 str range to 45 and then start to tapper upward a bit sharper to 60s and then start to level ot around 72.5 shown on my graph that can be tweaked to 75. I am just thinking with how the mulitplier works on the dmg end the greater benefit for higher str will be the dmg and slight dr over other high end accounts but not being superiour by both.

 

.eJwFwdFugjAUANB_4Z1CyAjTt1IFdRVh6SzwYkB

Edited by MaurizioAM

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I'm sure that if the devs combine proper pvp fixes with the proposed map reset/merge it would most likely be a great success, just my 10 cents pls no haterino.

Edited by Wonderer
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13 minutes ago, Wonderer said:

I'm sure that if the devs combine proper pvp fixes with the proposed map reset/merge it would most likely be a great success, just my 10 cents pls no haterino.

Yeh nothing will change if only one or the other is done. Both must happen if they want any results at all.

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2 hours ago, blayze said:

 

Except you can not stand in front of a deed with 15 people shooting at you without an excape rout or cotten. There are pleanty of way to counter archery. Out healing the extreamly low dps is easy even if your by your self. If your raiding then build a wall (takes literally 10 seconds with bricks). You can hide behind a hill and you will be out of sight. Jump into a building or mine. Run out of range. Run though trees (reduces the chance to get hit). Have the high ground. The list goes on. It makes sense that if you made a really bad move that you will have to pay for it.

 

Sure the nurf the I purposed is harsh but it would still take around 150 arrows (4 quivers) to kill a single person in person in plate with a shield. At that rate outhealing is still extreamly easy and if you are really in such a bad position where you dont have cotten or a friend to heal you or a way out, you should die. 

 

People are going to gate hop no matter what, its just a overpowered stragity in the game. But it should not be a justification to make archery compleatly useless by giving people invinsibility to archery.

 

It's not really low dps against a weaker account or crappy gear... people can and have died to <10 arrows in plate

 

But this is more about boats not gatehopping really.  In a boat while moving because you usually have tothe only heal you have is drain health or heal, which just enforces the horrible importance of being a priest and having priests.  It just means whoever can't priest heal will be guaranteed to die first especially when people with healers can avoid melee range until someone dies then now they have the advantage.  BL boat spam all over again, except there's no overheating

 

Edit:  Walls aren't even a safety net anymore ever since bridges update.  Tall walls can and have been shot over (or under...)

Edited by MrGARY

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With the BS>DR curve proposals I'm still wary of how these will play out with basically every account getting a significant buff.

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2 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

It's not really low dps against a weaker account or crappy gear... people can and have died to <10 arrows in plate

 

But this is more about boats not gatehopping really.  In a boat while moving because you usually have tothe only heal you have is drain health or heal, which just enforces the horrible importance of being a priest and having priests.  It just means whoever can't priest heal will be guaranteed to die first especially when people with healers can avoid melee range until someone dies then now they have the advantage.  BL boat spam all over again, except there's no overheating

 

Edit:  Walls aren't even a safety net anymore ever since bridges update.  Tall walls can and have been shot over (or under...)

 

You cant compare a person who just started the game to a person who has a really strong account. The weaker account will die in nearly every situation, weather its archery or not. Also it does not matter if you have armor. If you have a shield and you know how to use it, its a 98% block rate. The person who died in less than 10 hits must have not had a shield or not knew how to use it.

 

As for the dps, its not high at all. If it takes 150 arrows to kill a person, that is an average of 0.66% damage per arrow at 5.2 seconds per arrow (including stamina regeneration). If you put that together it 0.12% dps. It would take 8.3 seconds to do 1%. You would do more dps punching someone without a weapon than you would do with a bow. I also tested with a short bow which has the highest dps. The longbow, which is more often used, has a even lower dps rate. If your shooting at night time, good luck doing any damage.

 

There is also a limit to how many arrows people take out to fights. On average I see people with 1.5 quivers of arrows. If you have 5 people on a sail boat with 1.5 quivers of arrows each you get a total of 7.5. If it takes 2 quiver to kill a person who cant heal then you will only have a chance to kill 3.75 players. This means you would only need 3 full heals and the other boat would be out of arrows. Then if you also take into account the driver of the sail boat, usually out of stamina, their shoot timer would be around 15 seconds. Your looking at a max dps output of 0.52% for an entire sailboat.

 

Also with the new changes you have 5 minute resistance timers which I think affect healing from spells. Healing spells also got a nurf for how much it heals (based off of cast power) so they are not going to be overpowered as they were.

 

The bl boat spam was different. Rotting gut would do around 10 damage though armor with a cast time of 10 seconds. That about 1% dps per person, which is around 10 times less than what I suggested. The second part is that its not a one sided slaughter fight light it was with bl spell spam. Both sides can use archery.

 

I know your pain with the bl boat fights, it made me not want to ever go near a boat again. However the current situation is not much better. Archery does not work so you spend 3-4 hours sailing around the map, fail to kill someone 10 tiles away for 40 minutes and have to go home and make all of your arrows over again.

Edited by blayze

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you could try the changes and have a challeng/very long test server on it, nothing wrong with trying.

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17 minutes ago, Mclovin said:

you could try the changes and have a challeng/very long test server on it, nothing wrong with trying.

yeah a new challenge server would be great to test the changes in a proper pvp setting.

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7 minutes ago, Wonderer said:

yeah a new challenge server would be great to test the changes in a proper pvp setting.

 

And the best idea of the year goes to you

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1 minute ago, blayze said:

 

And the best idea of the year goes to you

ty c;

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1 hour ago, blayze said:

You cant compare a person who just started the game to a person who has a really strong account. The weaker account will die in nearly every situation, weather its archery or not. Also it does not matter if you have armor. If you have a shield and you know how to use it, its a 98% block rate. The person who died in less than 10 hits must have not had a shield or not knew how to use it.

 

I'm not.  There are plenty that used 2h weapons or don't know how to block or no stam to block suffering the fate of well, not blocking arrows.  Which is moot point if shield blocking arrows is nerfed heavily, the point is how much damage archery can do.  Not to 50-70+ body strength accounts with gone/champ/moon metal/etc, but the more reasonable expectations of well, a newer account, not a noob, but someone that is trying to get into the game.  Deskjet, someone that has played for years, was dropped to hurt by one arrow from Sme, that's over 15 damage so only 7 arrows at that rate to die.  Since we don't know what ql armor he had, so I just shot my own alt Mrgary with my usual pvp arrows.  Not a strong account, but more average, in 85ql~ plate. 


 

Spoiler

 

[23:59:53] You hit Mrgary extremely hard in the left hand and harm it.[23:59:53] Your weapon burns Mrgary.

9.37 dmg 0.95 burn

[00:01:06] You hit Mrgary deadly hard in the right hand and harm it.

11.4 dmg

[00:01:43] You hit Mrgary extremely hard in the right underarm and harm it.

[00:01:43] Your weapon burns Mrgary.

7.8 dmg 1.05 burn

[00:02:15] You hit Mrgary deadly hard in the left shoulder and harm it.

[00:02:15] Your weapon burns Mrgary.

12.05 dmg 2.21 burn

 

 

So yeah I would say 10~ hits to kill someone that isn't a top end tank is pretty reasonable (I'm not counting shots fired/glanced as "hits" if you are?) .  Only fired 6 shots since I can't be bothered, 2/6 glanced, so if shields are nerfed hard archery becomes too op since it will be a lot more than one person shooting one target

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2 hours ago, Budda said:

With the BS>DR curve proposals I'm still wary of how these will play out with basically every account getting a significant buff.

Well there is another very easy way... Nerf the top tier accounts.

Black line.

a48c516e1d.png

or Black line2.

af04356053.png

 

If you are under a mindset that lesser accounts shouldnt get stronger than currently and high end accs not nerfed, then there is absolutely no way.

It's all about a ratio between the 2.

 

Since people whine loudly when nerfed i figured buffing low end accs instead of nerfing high end ones was a better way of handling it... Purely due to vocal opposition and thus never being able to push through something that would aid newbs.

 

But feel free to mess with it yourself.

http://www.mathopenref.com/graphfunctions.html?fx=0.4log((x*0.8)-15)+0.07&gx=(b*x/100)+a*log(x*c-10)+d&hx=(x/100)-0.2&xh=100&xl=0&yh=1&yl=0&ah=0.5&a=0.2632978723404255&bh=1&bl=-1&b=-0.1063829787234043&ch=1&c=0.5&dh=1&dl=-1&d=0.2

Adjust A,B,C,D.

Edited by Zekezor

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3 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

I'm not.  There are plenty that used 2h weapons or don't know how to block or no stam to block suffering the fate of well, not blocking arrows.  Which is moot point if shield blocking arrows is nerfed heavily, the point is how much damage archery can do.  Not to 50-70+ body strength accounts with gone/champ/moon metal/etc, but the more reasonable expectations of well, a newer account, not a noob, but someone that is trying to get into the game.  Deskjet, someone that has played for years, was dropped to hurt by one arrow from Sme, that's over 15 damage so only 7 arrows at that rate to die.  Since we don't know what ql armor he had, so I just shot my own alt Mrgary with my usual pvp arrows.  Not a strong account, but more average, in 85ql~ plate. 


 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

[23:59:53] You hit Mrgary extremely hard in the left hand and harm it.[23:59:53] Your weapon burns Mrgary.

9.37 dmg 0.95 burn

[00:01:06] You hit Mrgary deadly hard in the right hand and harm it.

11.4 dmg

[00:01:43] You hit Mrgary extremely hard in the right underarm and harm it.

[00:01:43] Your weapon burns Mrgary.

7.8 dmg 1.05 burn

[00:02:15] You hit Mrgary deadly hard in the left shoulder and harm it.

[00:02:15] Your weapon burns Mrgary.

12.05 dmg 2.21 burn

 

 

So yeah I would say 10~ hits to kill someone that isn't a top end tank is pretty reasonable (I'm not counting shots fired/glanced as "hits" if you are?) .  Only fired 6 shots since I can't be bothered, 2/6 glanced, so if shields are nerfed hard archery becomes too op since it will be a lot more than one person shooting one target

 

Sure shield should not be nurfed too much because as you were saying they can do a lot of damage from a single hit. Although it does not matter if you do 1 damage or 50 damage a hit, if you miss with all of your arrows it make no difference. As it is now, for normal accounts, if you have two quivers (82 arrows) fired at you, chances are only 1 or 2 will hit.

 

Also for clarification I'm only talking about the optimal shield blocking position where the person shooting you is at the left corner of your screen. Blocking normally seems fine.

 

To make a point I change the defenders stats to 50, 25 body and put a shield and ls on, no armor and put my self in the optimal position.

Spoiler

[21:55:09] A war arrow hits you on the left calf.
[21:55:09] Blayze hits you extremely hard in the left calf and damages it.
[21:55:13] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:55:22] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:02] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:06] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:10] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:14] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:19] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:25] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:30] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:35] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:41] A war arrow hits you on the right underarm.
[21:57:41] Blayze hits you extremely hard in the right underarm and damages it.
[21:57:47] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:53] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:57:59] A war arrow hits you on the head.
[21:57:59] Blayze hits you very hard in the head and harms it.
[21:58:17] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:58:21] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:58:37] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:58:41] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:58:45] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:58:49] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:58:54] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:58:59] A war arrow hits you on the chest.
[21:58:59] Blayze hits you very hard in the chest and harms it.
[21:59:05] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:59:10] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:59:16] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:59:22] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:59:28] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:59:34] A war arrow hits you on the right thigh.
[21:59:34] Blayze hits you extremely hard in the right thigh and damages it.
[21:59:40] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:59:47] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[21:59:53] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:00:00] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:00:07] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:00:14] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:00:21] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:03:06] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:03:10] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:04:59] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:05:09] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:05:14] A war arrow hits you on the chest.
[22:05:14] Blayze hits you extremely hard in the chest and damages it.
[22:05:18] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:05:23] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:05:32] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:05:37] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:05:41] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:05:57] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:01] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:05] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:09] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:14] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:19] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:25] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:30] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:36] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:42] You instinctively block an arrow with your shield.
[22:06:47] A war arrow hits you on the lower back.
[22:06:47] Blayze hits you extremely hard in the lower back and damages it.
[22:06:47] You are dead.
 

 

I was still able to block 50 arrows and it took 7 shots to die, 87.7% block chance (no armor). A noob, with no skill would take over a quiver to kill with no armor from an account that has 80 skills and 40 body and had all of their armor taken off so they didn't have the archery debuf.

 

Using the same logic of trying to protect the new players, how is it fair that new players, who don't know how to use shield, have to try and fight old players that know about the shield trick and use it to block 98% of arrows.

 

Edited by blayze
misread garys post

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13 minutes ago, Wonderer said:

I'm sure that if the devs combine proper pvp fixes with the proposed map reset/merge it would most likely be a great success, just my 10 cents pls no haterino.

No haterino.. But a merge/map reset with with some of the proposed pvp fixes will not be the game changer needed to bring in new players. 

 

To bring in new players wurm is going to have to figure out a way to make the start a bit easy for them i hate to say it that way but its true. Some people are going to say its a niche game and if they cant hack it they shouldnt play but ssdly people not playing is a reason why many vets are also leaving. The game will not sustain itself this way. Changing the DR curve a bit making new players a bit more tanky gives them that much more of a chance not only to get into pvp but just in general play. IMO i would add in an increase in skill gain to at least 40 skill. 

 

A combination of DR type change, possibly some faster skill gain till 40 skill, normal gain afterward.. Armor changes which seem to be pretty decent ( please dont touch moon metal effectiveness till after pvp changes go live... Moon metals being obtainable now can level that playing field by itself) along with the many other changes to territory control and possibly pmk requirements (player count only). As for new map or reset, that is unnecessary with many of the right changes just have 1 month of NO pvp at all. No hota spawn no rifts just giving enough time to establish.

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7 hours ago, Budda said:

With the BS>DR curve proposals I'm still wary of how these will play out with basically every account getting a significant buff.

My concern as well which is why my graph tappers off twice. Im going to make a new graph today with slightly changed values. What im also going to do is explain why each milestone value is selected. I am going to bring the values much closer to the current values around the mid end accounts and again with reasons as to why.

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