Posted August 9, 2016 Yeah I get its minimal it just seems lack-luster. Even with the skill curve giving higher effective it does still help imping higher the higher you grind your skill. Something difficult like stats having little to no return is more harsh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Budda said: I'll just leave this here for you all to fight over and discuss today: If we went the route of a curve applied for how BS affects DR, this is something along the lines of how it would work out, compared to currently: http://prntscr.com/c3clob The problem I can see with this already though is it's largely a buff to basically all accounts at this point - which I think is due to the difference of 20BS and 40BS being a huge investment in game, but not really in terms of numbers - so 40BS accounts would get a hefty buff along with the 20BS accounts. If someone can come up with a different function for a better curve for it I'm all ears. My question is, will all these PvP changes also affect freedom? You know, that you will be a "star" among PvE community, if you go through with that change(and nerfing with drake, which was mentioned earlier). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 4 minutes ago, rixk said: My question is, will all these PvP changes also affect freedom? You know, that you will be a "star" among PvE community, if you go through with that change(and nerfing with drake, which was mentioned earlier). I think any balancing to DR given from BS would need to probably apply only for fights between players at the moment - otherwise we run the risk of making basically all creatures fairly nerfed in their damage output. I'm wary to change the dragon or moon armours for now, as I'd rather see how the current armour balance changes I've done so far play out. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 That curve looks a bit to flat. Maybe to extreme for a first tweak. And like someone said it will increase the importance of other DR things. But overall it would work and it being a buff to alot of players I don't think would be an issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) A tl;dr for this post: linear damage reduction = exponential health logarithmic damage reduction = linear health If you don't believe me, read on 1 hour ago, Omar said: That curve looks a bit to flat. Maybe to extreme for a first tweak. And like someone said it will increase the importance of other DR things. But overall it would work and it being a buff to alot of players I don't think would be an issue. Since damage reduction is a fairly abstract way of looking at how survivable you will be (with differences in lower DR amounts not being as significant as they appear) here's a representation of effective health using the curve and current method: Effective health plot: (purple is current method effective health, blue is curve method effective health) With the DR you get from the current method, you can see how your health really takes off after 70. Think of it this way: 20% DR means you have 1/(1-.2)=125% health 40% DR means you have 1/(1-.4)= 166% health Doubling your DR at this point did not double your health. Now lets compare 40% and 80% DR 40% DR means you have 1/(1-.4)=166% health 80% DR means you have 1/(1-.8)=500% health Doubling your DR at this point did far more than double your health As your DR increases, the benefit from each extra point of DR also increases. At 98% compared to 99% it looks like very little difference at all, but realize that means taking 1% damage as opposed to 2%. That single point of DR results in a doubling of your effective health. The way it currently works, body strength gives you more per level at higher levels, and less per level at lower levels. This is most likely why accounts snowball so hard, because the rate at which they become tankier increases as their body strength does. Thus, lower bs players get less benefit from training levels than higher bs players do, and the higher bs players' health skyrockets toward the moon at a faster rate than the lower level players' does. The suggested curve would make the benefit of body strength mostly linear and fair for all levels, because right now body strength actually affects your effective health exponentially. 1 hour ago, Omar said: That curve looks a bit to flat. Maybe to extreme for a first tweak. And like someone said it will increase the importance of other DR things. But overall it would work and it being a buff to alot of players I don't think would be an issue. Not sure how you mean. The curve would make the DR from body strength greater than it once was (up to level 70), making BS more significant compared to other sources than it used to be. What I meant by benefiting players who have DR from other sources is that the issue is they have high DR from stacking, and if they are still under 70 body strength, then they would now get a little bit more DR from the curve effect as well, further stacking them a small amount. I believe the curve would reduce the importance of other DR sources, but still slightly buff those who already have them. Edited August 9, 2016 by Alexgopen 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) @ Alex Very nice work mate. I still think the proposed is a little flat, the effort to gain BS also increases as you get higher. Same thing with other sources of DR, it would mean less effort to achieve greater DR relative to other players (if your goal is to gain DR then going for valrei etc would be less effort compared to BS gains). But its just splitting hairs, its a good idea and ur graph reinforces the effect of high BS, and thats not even considering the higher dodge chance from higher CR right? Edit: Bad rough example, im tired Player A spends 3 month grinding BS to get 20% more DR - under the proposed curve the time would now be longer to get the same DR Player B spends 3 month getting a Blood of Angels for a 20% DR bonus Player C spends 3 month trying for a tome but lucks out and rages lol In your graph 70 to 75 BS would change from +22 to like +3 or 4? Edited August 9, 2016 by Omar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 15 minutes ago, Omar said: @ Alex Very nice work mate. I still think the proposed is a little flat, the effort to gain BS also increases as you get higher. Same thing with other sources of DR, it would mean less effort to achieve greater DR relative to other players (if your goal is to gain DR then going for valrei etc would be less effort compared to BS gains). But its just splitting hairs, its a good idea and ur graph reinforces the effect of high BS, and thats not even considering the higher dodge chance from higher CR right? Body strength doesn't affect CR as far as I've seen. It does affect damage reduction and dealt damage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) A bit late to the party but On 8/7/2016 at 8:50 AM, Propheteer said: With the boats, i'm curious with what this hopes to achieve? It just makes it about numbers to me? You wouldn't even need to test it to see thats the goal as obviously 10 is greater than 5. How would one sailboat ever hope to beat two? Two sailboats will be able to shoot-down a single boat before one boat could even shoot down one of theirs. No movement = no skill involved in the commanders side, and 5 accounts cant beat 10 in a straight up fight with the modern day pvp requirements. The skill of archery doesn't even come into a factor here as it takes less than five hours on Epic to get to 70, and less than a day to get to 70 on Freedom. Anything above 70, accuracy wise, is not even noticeable. Also, i would test this, but seeing as how the last time two experienced pvpers put in 8 hours testing something, and when they gave you feedback that wasn't good, you proceeded to delete their post and made a post clearly directed at them saying to go test it. With the current boat system its way too safe. Sense all of the boats go the same speed and archery is useless against players, so its almost impossible to get caught trying to run away. If both of the boats go the same speed there and there is no possible way to change that then its a free, safe ride back to deed. You shouldn't be able to just run to a boat and get away free nearly every time. Sure the current system is more about maneuvering when fighting but its horribly broken. There is no skill in escaping, both boats go the same speed and you cant shoot out a player, so if you have a lead you will keep that till your back to deed. Edited August 9, 2016 by blayze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 Yep the time spent gaining the lower levels is nothing compared to the time spent gaining the higher levels and rewards accordingly for this investment imo especially when at the end of the day your account means squat if you don't have more people behind you. It would be nice to imagine that the improvement you put in means you can hold your own in at least some situations after all why should a brand new account be on the same level as someone who has played for years in a game designed around gaining skills. Also Omar you forgot a few more examples: Player D spends 3 years getting Blood of the Angels only to find out they are screwed over for being female Player E spends 3 years to get nothing but a red cherry that drops him 5% DR Player F spends 3 years to get nothing at all 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, blayze said: A bit late to the party but With the current boat system its way too safe. Sense all of the boats go the same speed and archery is useless against players, so its almost impossible to get caught trying to run away. If both of the boats go the same speed there and there is no possible way to change that then its a free, safe ride back to deed. You shouldn't be able to just run to a boat and get away free nearly every time. Sure the current system is more about maneuvering when fighting but its horribly broken. There is no skill in escaping, both boats go the same speed and you cant shoot out a player, so if you have a lead you will keep that till your back to deed. That's true, but I'm fairly certain feel there are better ways to accomplish this rather than just saying "If you have more numbers, you win." This game has gotten to the point where it just about fully revolves around numbers and RNG as opposed to skill, strategy, and timing. Boat combat certainly has its flaws, but its just about the last bastion of truly skillful gameplay. Edited August 9, 2016 by Propheteer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 5 hours ago, Budda said: I'll just leave this here for you all to fight over and discuss today: If we went the route of a curve applied for how BS affects DR, this is something along the lines of how it would work out, compared to currently: http://prntscr.com/c3clob The problem I can see with this already though is it's largely a buff to basically all accounts at this point - which I think is due to the difference of 20BS and 40BS being a huge investment in game, but not really in terms of numbers - so 40BS accounts would get a hefty buff along with the 20BS accounts. If someone can come up with a different function for a better curve for it I'm all ears. lookin good m80 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 Regarding archery vs shields, I'd be careful of nerfing shields too much. Yeah maybe near 100% block now is bad, but too low introduces rng to making it closer and closer to near endless spell spam. If anything, it's a severe nerf for weaker accounts that can take even over 15 dmg from a good skill/geared account with enchanted arrows. <10 arrows to kill someone seems way too powerful if rng allows it to happen too fast, which allows snowballing from the stronger accounts Boat speed is a problem that I can't think of any fair fix to other than variable boat speeds that start at base speed per wind+pass+ql and go faster to a capped speed per wind, and change between it randomly. Higher ql can help like speed traits, and maybe rarity too, but it would still leave situations where the worse off boat could catch up too, but neither will be the faster or same speed forever Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 blocking arrows definitely needs to be looked at as well. I believe it should be some sort of formula that combines looking the right direction ( positioning ) and skill because at the moment I can grab a shield with 10 skill in it and block 90% or higher of arrows. Positioning and skill being 50% each respectively. Get to work @Alexgopen and figure something out! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) 15 hours ago, Budda said: I'll just leave this here for you all to fight over and discuss today: If we went the route of a curve applied for how BS affects DR, this is something along the lines of how it would work out, compared to currently: http://prntscr.com/c3clob The problem I can see with this already though is it's largely a buff to basically all accounts at this point - which I think is due to the difference of 20BS and 40BS being a huge investment in game, but not really in terms of numbers - so 40BS accounts would get a hefty buff along with the 20BS accounts. If someone can come up with a different function for a better curve for it I'm all ears. start -> 35 bs = x2 hp. 45bs -> 100bs = x2 hp. Sounds reasonable in terms of character progression and allows average joe gamers to be competative in pvp while still having about half the hp of a pro leet demi-nightowl mountaindew drinking pvp god. Thus giving reason to progress to the very end. (and keep in mind this is merely one benefit out of many that a veteran has in its sleeve) Also I think this is worth repeating. On 2016-08-08 at 7:25 AM, Zekezor said: Now i bet some derps will complain about their effort/time spent doing the skill or w/e... The reason they would complain is becouse it took so much effort and time and is exactly one of the things u wanna avoid since its pvp requirements. Don't forget the reason we are talking about this. Edited August 9, 2016 by Zekezor 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, Egard said: blocking arrows definitely needs to be looked at as well. I believe it should be some sort of formula that combines looking the right direction ( positioning ) and skill because at the moment I can grab a shield with 10 skill in it and block 90% or higher of arrows. Positioning and skill being 50% each respectively. Get to work @Alexgopen and figure something out! *mumbles something about this already being in the works* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 have continuum or true strike been changed the past few months or are they still crazy op Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 why not "link" the blocking of arrows to stam, the lower your stamina gets, the higher chance the guy has to hit you 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zekezor said: start -> 35 bs = x2 hp. 45bs -> 100bs = x2 hp. Sounds reasonable in terms of character progression and allows average joe gamers to be competative in pvp while still having about half the hp of a pro leet demi-nightowl mountaindew drinking pvp god. Thus giving reason to progress to the very end. (and keep in mind this is merely one benefit out of many that a veteran has in its sleeve) Also I think this is worth repeating. Don't forget the reason we are talking about this. Effective health plot for zeke's proposed curve Players would not lose the current very high health amounts they have, but people would be able to catch up to those amounts better. Everyone across the board would get large buff, except those with like 99bs+ (nobody). Body strength sourced DR/health would be much greater than in the past, making body strength more important than it once was, and comparatively other sources of DR/health will be less significant. Note: zekezor's curve uses log base 10, budda's used natural logarithm Edited August 9, 2016 by Alexgopen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 Zekes proposed curve actually looks very nice. It buffs the newer accounts, and the older accounts still maintain their current strength and progression. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Alexgopen said: Effective health plot for zeke's proposed curve I didn't know it was such a perfect linear progression in health per strength.... Guess I'm good at estimation... Edited August 9, 2016 by Zekezor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) i like Edited August 9, 2016 by Quicktor 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Egard said: blocking arrows definitely needs to be looked at as well. I believe it should be some sort of formula that combines looking the right direction ( positioning ) and skill because at the moment I can grab a shield with 10 skill in it and block 90% or higher of arrows. Positioning and skill being 50% each respectively. Get to work @Alexgopen and figure something out! Yeah its around 98% block rate without armor (tested on feedback thread, 1 our of 79 arrows hit) 1 hour ago, Quicktor said: why not "link" the blocking of arrows to stam, the lower your stamina gets, the higher chance the guy has to hit you This wouldn't do much as a single change. You gain stam back while not moving, so boat fights, raiding and any kind of stationary fighting would be unaffected. However I think this would still be a good thing to add in if blocking an arrow drained a bit of stam each time. As of now archery is completely useless against players. If shield were fixed and the plate+shield combination still gave a really high block rate, this might open up strategies of focusing someone with archery to drain their stam instead of health. Even with this chagne the shield blocking rate still needs to be changed. If the devs intended there to be a way to protect your self completely from a barrage of arrows, it needs to be some other kind of active move that has a cast timer, stops you from doing any other action and makes you move as slow as climbing. Invincibility needs to have a cost to it. Edited August 9, 2016 by blayze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 Or modify how arrows work against shields? Would having arrows heavily damage/destroy shields just mean everyone carries around 10 shields? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 1 minute ago, Retrograde said: Or modify how arrows work against shields? Would having arrows heavily damage/destroy shields just mean everyone carries around 10 shields? not sure, but, it would be a pretty big buff to the scale of lib. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 9, 2016 1 minute ago, Retrograde said: Would having arrows heavily damage/destroy shields just mean everyone carries around 10 shields? If it prevents them dying, ofc A single shield can last forever though as long as they keep repairing it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
