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PvP Changes discussion

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As I've said before, replace aosp on Mag with web armor

 

+1 for giving Mag a useful enchanting spell, but there's no real reason to take away AoSP.

 

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give Mag cure light and true hit, the ability to bash, and woodcut on top of mining. 

 

No, no and NO.  The best WL combat priest doesn't need further buffs.  Bashing...why?  Being the only priest able to catapult isn't good enough for you?

 

There has been alot of...debate... about giving the "old gods" more functionality in general, primarily on Freedom.  Lifting some restrictions, but adding spells from other gods leads in the same direction of redundancy as the player gods (LT for Lib?  Really man?).  The simple truth is that Mags are already the most useful priest (of any old god, player god, WL, BL or otherwise) to have at a deed raid.  They can open mines, prospect to find the nearest vein, mine ammo, they're the only priest that can fire catapults, and should the defending kingdom actually engage the attackers... Mag priests have +25% damage too! 

 

Vynora priests have absolutely no function at raids, except for casting nolo, reveals and dispelling.  Can't dig, can't mine, can't heal, can't bash or use catapults, about the only thing I can see them being used for is carting resources from the mine to the catapults.  But don't worry, that 10 seconds needed to chop a tree down and make logs to assemble the catapults?  Yeah, they got that covered...

 

Edited by Wargasm

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2 pillar spells and a single target spell isnt very useless. but why does vyn need to be useful at a raid in the first place...?

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36 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

 

 

+1 for giving Mag a useful enchanting spell, but there's no real reason to take away AoSP.

 

 

No, no and NO.  The best WL combat priest doesn't need further buffs.  Bashing...why?  Being the only priest able to catapult isn't good enough for you?

 

There has been alot of...debate... about giving the "old gods" more functionality in general, primarily on Freedom.  Lifting some restrictions, but adding spells from other gods leads in the same direction of redundancy as the player gods (LT for Lib?  Really man?).  The simple truth is that Mags are already the most useful priest (of any old god, player god, WL, BL or otherwise) to have at a deed raid.  They can open mines, prospect to find the nearest vein, mine ammo, they're the only priest that can fire catapults, and should the defending kingdom actually engage the attackers... Mag priests have +25% damage too! 

 

Vynora priests have absolutely no function at raids, except for casting nolo, reveals and dispelling.  Can't dig, can't mine, can't heal, can't bash or use catapults, about the only thing I can see them being used for is carting resources from the mine to the catapults.  But don't worry, that 10 seconds needed to chop a tree down and make logs to assemble the catapults?  Yeah, they got that covered...

 

 

Look at it from his perspective on epic.  Raiding  doesn't happen nearly as much as it does on chaos, especially if you're MR epic.  Nathan/fo are the meta on epic, because most pvp is either open field or on boats, rather than deed gatehopping.  Nathan has 3 single target offensive spells, and gets +25% dmg bonus, making it very good on boats.  Fo is also very good on boats because of how full heal works at the moment.  Nathan is great in open field because you can use hellhorses without having to tame them, meaning you can use two hellhorses, you get +25% dmg, and the random mobs around wont be attacking you as you're fighting your opponent.  Fos are necessary for light of fo in open field combat, which can easily turn the tide of a fight. 

 

Mag lacks good single target spells compared to player gods, which for the most part have multiple, and has no heals either, making their only real benefit a bit of extra damage, for which there is a better alternative in the form of nathan. 

 

I'm saying this as hots so mag isnt even an option for me. Ever since player gods however libila has been practically useless.  And with regards to lib having LT, we already use nahjo/fo alts for it anyways, so lib having it would just be a quality of life thing.  I agree that vynora is pretty useless in pvp though, but ever since the player gods came out, the other default gods are also underpowered compared to the totally unbalanced randomly generated player gods.

 

 

#removeplayergods

Edited by Alexgopen
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I don't think giving everything to each of the old gods is the answer.  Mag shouldn't be able to heal, Fo shouldn't be able to mine and Libila shouldn't be able to farm just because "every other [player] god can. 

 

Instead, perhaps the player gods need to be looked at, and I venture to say Mag needs to be looked at.  I haven't seen any Nahjo or Paawheelr champions... probably because they don't get the OP +25% combat damage bonus  AND  the ability to heal themselves like Nathan and Tosiek do. 

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Sure player gods are extremely unbalanced but they do give a level playing field for all kingdoms. nvm see post below

 

With the blacklight/witelight kingdom restrictions on the old gods, bl was forced to only be able to choose Libila and MR/JK get the 3 other whitelight gods. With this combination of 1:3 it is impossible to balance out the gods with spell sets that are unique to a god. 

 

One of the issues that kept coming up was that the BL side did not have the powerful enchants that whitelight had (LT, Nimbleness, ect...) and were unable to get them despite those enchants being necessary to pvp. To compensate for this BL was forced to use alts that were WL and have them sit out of local to enchant.

 

On the other hand BL had extremely powerful single target spells (Worm brains, rotting gut, drain health) that had no comparison to the WL counterparts due to the 100% armor penetration. The WL side single target spells had 70% or so damage reduced so the spells would hit for 0.1%-2% of the targets health (if they had armor). The BL spells would hit for 6%-12%.

 

There are also other issues like healing spells, sociables, zombies, ect. that also create even more problems.

 

If you want to get rid of player gods and have a balanced priest system you have to allow all kingdoms to choose any god or compleatly rework how priest work or the base gods.

Edited by blayze

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8 hours ago, Wargasm said:

The best WL combat priest doesn't need further buffs

 

You lost me at this.  Mag is literally the worst possible choice for pvp post player gods, especially since you can champ as player gods...

 

Pre player gods, I was a Mag priest for 1.5 years.  I depriested because the battlefield was dominated by Lib, Fo, and Vyn (yes, Vyn because it's far more useful in pvp than Mag..) so it wasn't worth the priest penalties to gameplay for being a priest of the worst god.

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2 hours ago, blayze said:

Sure player gods are extreamly unbalanced but they do give a level playing field for all kingdoms.

 

I disagree.

 

In the past, WL on boats could heal but didnt have great offensive abilities, while BL had good offensive abilities but lacked any way of healing.  Also the days of BL spell spamming JK were during a time when sotg was still fairly rare, so the effect of the single target spells were much more significant, whereas now many players are high damage reduction and sotg, where full heal has a much more significant effect.

 

Now with player gods, WL have access to priests with multiple offensive spells, such as nathan who has drain health, rotting gut, fireheart AND +25% bonus damage for these spells, thus giving them the same offensive abilities BL, while BL are still left without any way to heal on boats.  Also I'd have to go find the old patch note but I believe fireheart/ice shard were buffed when the spell spam resistance and cooldowns were added in response to the oldschool OP BL spell spam days.

 

edit: here's the patchnote http://www.wurmonline.com/2014/09/11/priest-updates-decorative-items/

 

BL have stood little to no chance on boats ever since playergods came out, and I was hoping paaweelr would have heal to put an end to this imbalance, but alas we are still stuck without healing.  The only boatfights we've won since playergods were ones where we greatly outnumbered our opponents, or they had no priests.

Edited by Alexgopen
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8 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

You lost me at this.  Mag is literally the worst possible choice for pvp post player gods, especially since you can champ as player gods...

 

Pre player gods, I was a Mag priest for 1.5 years.  I depriested because the battlefield was dominated by Lib, Fo, and Vyn (yes, Vyn because it's far more useful in pvp than Mag..) so it wasn't worth the priest penalties to gameplay for being a priest of the worst god.

Forgive him... even tho he is jkc he doesnt pvp or understand how it works, so he just sees someone lose a fight to mr(thinking everyone in mrc is a mag priest and makes an assumption how op mag priests are). But yeah mag priests are pretty pointless. 25% damage is nice but with the pmg its far better to get it from nathan. Also vyn is nice although useless in raids if you try to only pvd catapult it the way jkc does. If you really raid a deed vyn priests are a good attackimg force on the dirtwalls checking damage and such. And dont forget the op casting combod he can get with nimb/fb/coc/woa etc. Healing light/med on mag would not change that much on the battlefield imo.

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46 minutes ago, Wulfgarr said:

Forgive him... even tho he is jkc he doesnt pvp or understand how it works, so he just sees someone lose a fight to mr(thinking everyone in mrc is a mag priest and makes an assumption how op mag priests are). But yeah mag priests are pretty pointless. 25% damage is nice but with the pmg its far better to get it from nathan. Also vyn is nice although useless in raids if you try to only pvd catapult it the way jkc does. If you really raid a deed vyn priests are a good attackimg force on the dirtwalls checking damage and such. And dont forget the op casting combod he can get with nimb/fb/coc/woa etc. Healing light/med on mag would not change that much on the battlefield imo.

 

Eh, Vynora is outshadowed in every category as a priest (just like mag), even for its enchants, playergods do it better. I'm sure Fo will be too once we get a demigod who has heal and LOF and some other nice combination of offensive spells too.

 

thanks rolf for the balance

Edited by Propheteer
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If Mag priests are that gimp, explain why MRC's last FIVE champions were all Mag?

And Wulfgarr, if you think Vyn priests are that good, when was the last time you saw a Vynora champion?  I thought so.

 

As for Epic, I see 7 champions, 3/7 are Tosiek, Nathan or Mag for the 25% damage bonus.  And while I understand that Epic fights are alot more "open field" PvP, I'm still having trouble figuring out how being able to cast CoC, Nimble and WoA in the middle of a battle is in any way shape or form helpful to winning a fight.

 

Edited by Wargasm

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5 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

I'm not sure where you are getting your info lol

 

Well I was going to post a screenie of Wild on Niarja showing the current Mag champions, but I forgot how to post pics and Imgur no longer provides the BBC code link to a picture.

 

http://imgur.com/a/IF220

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4 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

And who are the Mag champs on Epic?

 

I never said there were Mag champs on Epic. 

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

As for Epic, I see 7 champions, 3/7 are Tosiek, Nathan or Mag for the 25% damage bonus.

 

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I'd like to note that tosiek does not get 25% damage bonus 

 

Which leaves one champ in all of epic receiving +25% bonus damage  (and no mag champs)

Edited by Alexgopen
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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

If Mag priests are that gimp, explain why MRC's last FIVE champions were all Mag?

And Wulfgarr, if you think Vyn priests are that good, when was the last time you saw a Vynora champion?  I thought so.

 

As for Epic, I see 7 champions, 3/7 are Tosiek, Nathan or Mag for the 25% damage bonus.  And while I understand that Epic fights are alot more "open field" PvP, I'm still having trouble figuring out how being able to cast CoC, Nimble and WoA in the middle of a battle is in any way shape or form helpful to winning a fight.

 

Hahahha you know mr can only champ mag right? Or are you that clueless.... jk can champ fo and vyn, mr can champ mag and bl can champ lib.. not only last 5 but all champions of mrc and mre have been mag.

Edited by Wulfgarr

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

If Mag priests are that gimp, explain why MRC's last FIVE champions were all Mag?

And Wulfgarr, if you think Vyn priests are that good, when was the last time you saw a Vynora champion?  I thought so.

 

As for Epic, I see 7 champions, 3/7 are Tosiek, Nathan or Mag for the 25% damage bonus.  And while I understand that Epic fights are alot more "open field" PvP, I'm still having trouble figuring out how being able to cast CoC, Nimble and WoA in the middle of a battle is in any way shape or form helpful to winning a fight.

 

Also ice pillar, tenticlas, tornado for vyn in battle and all the other time coc/woa nimb and fb... boy you are clueless.

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Vyn has more offensive spells than Mag too so unless you think Mag priests are casting Flaming Aura or AoSP on the battle field then I'm not sure why you think saying Vyn casting enchants in battle is some kind of argument. Having two pillar spells with individual cool downs in itself is handy. Maybe you aren't aware but MR and its templates cant champ as Vyn, if I had to pick between champing Mag or Vyn there would be no question at all, Vyn.

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5 minutes ago, Wulfgarr said:

Hahahha you know mr can only champ mag right? Or are you that clueless.... jk can champ fo and vyn, mr can champ mag and bl can champ lib.. not only last 5 but all champions of mrc and mre have been mag.

 

Trying really hard to troll this morning aren't you?  Unfortunately, I never referred to Vynora champions in MR, I said Vynora champions in general.  As for Mag being your only choice, we both know that's not true either, referring to player gods.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

 

Trying really hard to troll this morning aren't you?  Unfortunately, I never referred to Vynora champions in MR, I said Vynora champions in general.  As for Mag being your only choice, we both know that's not true either, referring to player gods.

 

 

 

Hmmm... on a server all about raiding, I wonder why a person would choose a god that can catapult instead of one that can't

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On a serious note, why the hell are people on about priests right now. I can bet you that changing anything to do with priests alone wont change a damn thing about pvp. How about we focus on the more problematic issues that the devs can much easily fix... Once we have more population then more indepth changes/tweaks to god/player gods will make more sense. 

 

When i read throught the threads of DEVs asking for discussions to help narrow down what needs to be done to bring activity it never fails the thread jumps all over the place for no good reason. Player gods is not breaking or stoping game play but 50 str toons being 2 hit is. Sotg before the nerf was another reason why the game was dying, ( yes it was a big deal) there is a lack of balance which should remain the discussion.. Fix what really needs to be fixes to allow younger smaller groups actually have a chance to play.  Talk about more ways to get pvp instead of seriously boring deed raiding. Dont think about yourself think about how do we attract outsiders. How do we get our active population 100+ on chaos and also higher on freedom. 

 

I have a few suggestions for anyone who gives a shat. Both pvp related and some not.

 

Defense bonus to capital deeds.. Some people have complained that deeds are to hard to raid. Thats both a good and bad thing. It allows to much expansion of non lived in deeds and to much expansion has a greater negative affect on the game/population vs a positive one and because of that should be looked into. My suggestion is leaving how hard it is to raid a deed as is now and add extra defense bonuses to Capitals ONLY this way a smaller newb group has that much more of a chance to remain alive.(i mean that as in a kingdom vs being removed like BL. Removal of kingdoms may be fun for some people but it does not take away how much devastation it does to poplulation moral)

Make non capital deeds easier to raid. Double the damage taken from a siege.

 

Change how many people needed to make a PMK to 15. Make the cost 50s but remove the trader. This way initial cost is a bit more affordable and if they want a trader later on they pay the other 50s.

 

Make skilling faster for newer players till 40 skill. Make the multiplyer half or twice as fast as is now. Furthermore loss of premium skill cap change to 40 skill (stats are already capped at 30 and can remain that) changing cap to 40 allows once premiumed players to continue playing the game in a way that allows them to do just about everything including being able to defend themselves vs some mobs not all. Before some of you pvpers say you never think about the consciences... First as a non prem every death would be a PVE death so more skills lost... A pvp death to a non prem would also be 1 full point loss and no skills can be gained while non prem past 20, so having 40 skill and losing 1 skill point to all the skills until it gets lower then 20 you cannot reskill it. And as a non prem no 3x skill gain. Also no affinity lose or gain as non prem. More population means more economy. More players would come back new players would start playing. An incentive for players to go premium and even if they get to 40 skill and play non prem after that forever it still add population and to the economy... I can bet you that player will need to buy items from time to time or barter services. 

 

Back to pvp... With some of the changes proposed such as bringing back chaining of guard towers and adding a 24 - 120 hours teleport timer upon joining a village, potentially more of the map opens back up... History proves that when there was less of the map covered by controlled territories there was way way way more players traveling throughout the land. So with that things like the volcanos and rifts will start to see the possibility of more action. Turning HOTA into a dynamic always changing location would also become a great way to see a chance of more action as well. 

 

Ok done for now. 

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Since this is apparently the place for random ideas, here's one I had; Any toon that joins a village on a pvp server can't be sold. This will allow the uber toons to slowly "decay" away as players stop playing and allow new players to fill their places. Right now the super toons never go away but live on through sales. Rather then nerfing/buffing game wide and trying to sort out the effects, simply limiting how long toons can be "reincarnated" through different owners on pvp servers would seem to solve some or even many of the OP issues that newer accounts face. PVP toons that are sold could move to pve and live as retired fighters, no problem there.

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

 

Trying really hard to troll this morning aren't you?  Unfortunately, I never referred to Vynora champions in MR, I said Vynora champions in general.  As for Mag being your only choice, we both know that's not true either, referring to player gods.

 

 

Not really but you asked why last 5 mrc champs have been mag and thats the answer for that. Pmg are also allowed but they are pretty messed up with the aligment and wl/bl god balance. So for mr the only chance is to go mag or nahjo (also saw a tosiek champ once iirc but losing faith thru bugs is not a smart move)

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Not biggest change to actual combat but very related to pvp due to raiding. A big QoL change would be to make it so when catapulting it tells you either when you get a wall down with a shot and/or you are hitting just a wall plan. As right now it's just guesswork if the wall is down and it gets a little annoying. This small, easy change would make it much more friendly to raid a deed as it takes a lot of the hassle out of shooting at something.

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