Sign in to follow this  
Retrograde

PvP Changes discussion

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, lolmaster said:

Yes, cause a 2 month toon should be just as strong as a 2 year toon.

If you think like that then you have no clue how skills work in this game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Zekezor said:

Hmmm about Alexgopens 90 softcap to DR... After some thinking I disagree with it. It changes balance too much. It's probably better to look at the individual components than a 90 softcap.

More pain in the ass balancing individual DR components, but better in the long run.

maybe remove all -+ resistances from valrei items and instead make the spells more attractive

pretty stupid that many tomes are mainly only desired because they give a good resistance while the spell is often ignored (exceptions being OP spells such as Continuum and True Strike)

 

that's some DR stacking gone

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Worksock said:

maybe remove all -+ resistances from valrei items and instead make the spells more attractive

pretty stupid that many tomes are mainly only desired because they give a good resistance while the spell is often ignored (exceptions being OP spells such as Continuum and True Strike)

 

that's some DR stacking gone

 

tbh I've always thought that after the half damage taken buff and 3x damage taken debuff was changed to 15%/10% that is was pretty well balanced and more novelty bonus

 

The most I'd go with those is change it from separate buff/debuffs to just a "value" for damage taken so we don't get individual spell effects/icons clogging everything up.  Buff gives 10%, debuff is 5%, and for simplicity sake make the combo 5%.  That's buff of 15% -> 10%, and combo buff from around 6.5% to 5%, so just reducing the effect of larger buffs but combined effect which is already a lot smaller doesn't change a whole lot.  The buff/debuff for physical from smoke/red cherry could either stay the same or be dropped a tiny amount, doubt it matters.  The largest DR stacking thing left is glimmer/seryll armor still though

 

Edit:  If continuum is reduced a lot then the cost has to be reduced a lot, but the problem is still that it's dispellable, so it's already kinda useless waste of karma if the enemy know to dispel you, same for stoneskin.  I pretty much stopped bothering to cast anything because Rome kept spamming me with dispel even when I never casted anything. For true strike I have no real experience with that, but with the pvp testing crit damage is reduced so maybe it's less "op"?

Edited by MrGARY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, lolmaster said:

Yes, cause a 2 month toon should be just as strong as a 2 year toon.

Yes that is exactly how it should be actually.
That is the whole problem here:
New players don't stand any chance when they join pvp, they don't do now, they didn't do 2 years ago and they will even less in the future.
Because those two year old accounts will always stay two years older.
And to make it worse, it's not just two year old accounts, it's 5 to 9 year old accounts they have to compete with.
 

There will not be any new, lasting players so long as there is this unbreachable gap.
The fact that you cannot get on the same level as other players in two months (or two years for that matter) is the prime reason for the dying pvp servers.
This is fundamentally wrong with wurm pvp, pvp 'skill' is based on time and there is no cap.
Meaning anyone joining an 'x' amount of time after the start of the server will never be able to catch up or have a fair chance.
This 'x' amount of time has long passed by now.
 

In any other pvp game you can join years after release and have a fair chance, based on your own personal skill set.
If I would join any fps game I would be better than 75% of the players within two months, because I am good at this type of game, always have been.
If I would join any rts game I would be worse than 75% of the players and would never get a lot better than that, simply because I suck at those games.
But I have a friend who is good at it and he would be better than 75% of the players within two months.
If anyone would join wurm pvp now, they would always stay worse than 100% of the players that joined 3 years earlier.
 

Those first two game types will always allow new players in and give them a reasonable chance of survival, based on their own skill set.
As a new player in a 5 year old game you most likely will not become the nr1 player, since there will be some players that are just as good as you
only with 5 more years of experience. But this only means you will lose 6 out of 10 times. This also means you win 4 out of 10.
In wurm playing against someone with years more play time will mean you lose 10 out of 10, always.

 

I have already seen a couple people in this thread mention that wurm pvp is not only dependant on grinding 'skills' but that actual experience, positioning, group work, smartness, the use of the fight window etc. are also important aspects (which are also mostly the deciding factors in other pvp games).
If there is already this experience based system in place, which can easily decide the outcome of a fight between two equally 'skilled' and outfitted players, then why does wurm pvp still depend on this 'skill'-grinding system?

 

Sotg is a problem also, it is clearly not the only problem, but it's one of the most obvious factors with it's minimum of 6 months delay time.
You would need years to grind the skills needed for pvp, not only the ones directly influencing fighting (like fs, weaponskill, blocking, bodystats) but
also support skills needed to provide yourself with quality weapons, armor, horse, horse gear. Which are all minimum requirements for entering pvp.
Providing each of these for yourself is an immense, time consuming task. Not only to grind the skills (this will mean less time grinding pvp related skills),
but also making new stuff every single time you die. And as a new player that is what you will be doing all the time, dying.
You will need to create the infrastructure to make these pvp items, you will need to make tools, chests, a base. These all require you to grind your basic skills of digging, mining, woodcutting. If you start as a new player, or group of new players and want to autonomously prepare yourself for pvp you've got a couple years of grinding to do.
The times you can storm into battle with 50ql chain on a wild horse are long gone. (<- btw I don't know if this was ever a thing)
So not only do you need to grind pvp related skills but also half of the rest of the skill tree and level 50 skills won't do.

 

Ofcourse you should find yourself a nice group of vets that support you. But you can’t expect them to supply you forever.
I myself had really good experience with finding a group of people being friendly en very supportive in this manner.
But it’s not cool to have to ask for a new suit of armor everytime you die. And I believe in a well balanced pvp game you shouldn’t
have to spend so much time outside of pvp just to be able to participate, or be so dependant on others to supply you.
Also I doubt every new player will be as lucky in finding a nice group of vets.

 

So yeah, that's the second problem. Apart from the impossible to breach skill-gap, there's the problem of having to supply yourself with hours and hours worth of gear every time you die. I have heard many a vet complain about having to make horse shoes again. Every hour you spend working on gear will mean an hour less of pvp fun, which could be over in 10 minutes and you are back to hours of working again. I know this is what wurm is all about, 90% work and 10% fun. But for a new player it would be 90% work and another 10% of no fun with pvp being out of reach.

 

There are some things that can be done about the problem, but all would involve making it much easier for new players to get on the same level as vets.
By either boosting skill gain for new players or nerfing the skills gained by vets, or better yet making the pvp system based only on experience and not on time-consuming skills.
And this will, understandably, piss off most vets because they have spent years and years of their lifes grinding skills to get on their skill level of godliness.
And having ppl around reaching the same level in a couple weeks will feel like they just lost years of work.

 

It is kinda sad if you think about it. (Not meant in a condescending way)
If there will be taken no action to attract new players then wurm pvp will keep dying untill noone is left. Resulting in people losing their hard earned accomplishments.
But if there will be taken action then they will still end up feeling like they lost their hard earned accomplishments because of the sudden devaluation of skills.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How that fastpaced action Wurm turned out we have already seen. :D *cough*Challenge*cough*

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Zekezor said:

Hmmm about Alexgopens 90 softcap to DR... After some thinking I disagree with it. It changes balance too much. It's probably better to look at the individual components than a 90 softcap.

More pain in the ass balancing individual DR components, but better in the long run.

 

When combined with your curve however, it makes the damage reduction from body strength much more significant than that from sotg, and the curve scales up very quickly at the start, turning people into midrange accounts more quickly. 

 

30 body strength without sotg is actually better than 20 body strength with sotg with your curve + softcap, and 50 body strength without sotg is better than 30 body strength with sotg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, lolmaster said:

@knehtje  

 

That's why i have previously mentioned that the devs should look into making a server where you don't need to grind skills or worry about making armour. 

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/142995-a-compromise-to-epic-merge/#comment-1468626

 

Nobody wants that, honestly, but at the same time you seem to be a person who would rather keep the status quo of -300 premium players a month and sit with both PvP servers lower than just about they have ever been (you know excluding the people from epic playing on Chaos because epic is too far gone.)

 

Not to mention, instead of replying with actual suggestions or counterpoints, every post you make is some snarky trollpost.

 

How about try thinking of creative ways to improve the game and help it retain players and grow? Sure our suggestions may be ######, but we are the only people suggesting anything, otherwise why post here at all? You aren't helping any.

Edited by Propheteer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, lolmaster said:

My bad didn't realize this was a designated safe space.

 

It's not, it's a group of players trying to improve a game that most of us have enjoyed for many years and aren't satisfied with its current state and decline.

 

I'm just not sure why you want to troll a thread dedicated to the betterment of a large portion of the game instead of throwing in suggestions that might get listened to that you and your friends actually agree with. The mentality you are currently posting in here with is a big reason why the game is in such a ###### state.

Edited by Propheteer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are good points on both sides of the argument; however, I will say that even with 2 years of playtime and grinding like a fool, I know I can't compete in PVP with a lot of the long-aged accounts.  That these accounts are bought/sold/traded and never expire simply increases that gap that Propheteer posted about.  Now, Maurizio makes a good point about the 2 month old account beating the 2 year old account -- not very likely in many stats based games; however, that isn't what Propheteer was explaining: my interpretation being why can't a 2 year old account beat a 5 year old account?

 

I'm not a fan of the whole curve thing having experienced it on WurmU I can tell you it would be a nightmare trying to merge that onto Chaos this late in the game, no pun intended.  However, the answer (or a variation of) might be found in how some other PVP-centric/team-centric games have solved this problem.  In those examples, they have artificially elevated the new players based upon teaming and proximity so that they can compete.  They won't have the same capabilities but they at least can hit.  In those games they would artificially elevate level (granting CR so they can hit) but they would still be hindered by lack of special moves and the like that the longer-aged players had at the true level.  (I'm not talking about specials in Wurm which I understand need work -- just the specials equivalent in those games).  Perhaps something like that or a "luck" factor?  A luck factor being a CR adjustment that diminishes over the age of the character which has the same affect -- we have the newbie food/water/healing buff that lasts 24 hours, why not have a newbie PVP buff that lasts some much longer period of time that simply boosts CR so that they can actually hit or have a chance of blocking an arrow?  

 

Another interesting variant would be that newbie buff only show up on Chaos and work as SB for fighting related skill gains (FS, wep, archery, shield)?  A baby-curve of sorts?  On chaos, those skills would gain at curve-rates but the long-aged accounts would still have the benefit of the body/str/ctl just not so overwhelming on the CR.

 

Edited by DrB
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand why the general thinking seems to be that new PvP server must come with some kind of twist, or fancy features. Like 4 server cluster with x3 gain or that epic fail monthly reset server.

 

I know soo many people who would be willing to return to Wurm Online for just a standard new PvP server with a fresh map and fresh skills. I could list a bazillion reasons for why Chaos will never be attractive for new players.

 

It's really a great shame that players have been let down by the lack of availability of a decent PvP server.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if multiplicative DRs is the wrong approach. What if all sources of DR fed into a single DR stat (per damage type?) with diminishing returns?

For ease of writing I'm going to call this stat DR Strength or DRS.

Right now if you have 3 50% DR abilities, it works out to 0.5*0.5*0.5=0.125, 87.5% DR, or 8 times effective health.

An alternative version using DRS would be something like this.

(100+DRS)/(100+4*DRS)

This specific version approaches 75% DR (4 times effective health) as DRS approaches infinity, and is equal to 50% at DRS 50. So those same 3 sources of 50% would work out to 250/700=0.357 or 64.3% DR, 2.8 times effective health.

The equation is flexible, the DRS ratio determines the cap on effective health (1/4 = 4 times effective health, 1/10 = 10 times effective health, 2/15 = 7.5 times effective health, etc.) and the 100s just adjust the shape of the curve.

 

Diminishing returns means that more DRS is never worthless and can be stacked forever, but other things like less weight become more valuable in relation. The built in cap also future-proofs DR by ensuring no future additions suddenly result in massively better effective health down the line.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Diminishing returns concept ruins grind levelling. Wurm is built around grind levelling. That's all i wanted to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So it has been brought up to me that Web Armour isn't too predictable/working as it probably should be, and with the discussion on movement speed being a large factor in PvP this will be looked at.

 

Currently WA applies when you hit someone with WA, and gives you reduced movement speed and increased swing timer for a seemingly random amount of time. The random time is down to how it is currently coded, and isn't really intended to work like that - but fixing it would cause a fair buff to WA that seems isn't needed, so we need to do some rebalancing with it - another thing for everyone to discuss.

 

It looks as if WA was originally intended to stick onto the attacker for 10 seconds with it's effects before clearing (if the current randomness was fixed), I first suggest we change that to be a static 5-10s based on the power of the WA cast. 100 power cast would be 10s, 1 power would be 5s.

Now for that time the effect is on the attacker, they would get a status icon like the spell effect icons to show that they are under the effect of WA.

 

With the combination of movement speed reduction from WA as well as the likely hurting status that you're getting in the middle of a fight the attacker can get reduced to ridiculously slow speeds, potentially meaning certain death for them from what I hear. The proposed change for this would be to make it so the WA movement reduction and hurting status don't stack, with the movement reduction scaling based on the WA power as well (which I believe it already does). IF you have the WA effect on you as well as hurting, the larger movement reduction of the two would take effect, but not stack with each other.

 

Currently the swing timer is a flat 5s addition for WA, but I think changing that to be a multiplier of the attacker's normal swing timer would be better, once again dependent on the WA cast. So a power 100 WA cast would cause 2x swing timers for the duration the attacker is under the effect, and a 0 cast WA would mean 1x swing timers for the duration.

 

The idea behind this would make it so AOSP and WA each have their place. AOSP would cause woulds + movement speed reduction via the hurting status, WA would cause movement speed reduction and swing timer increase - but stacking WA and hurting status wouldn't mean certain death.

 

EDIT: Wrote down the wrong idea, fixed now :)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a PvE perspective, can we just get rid of the "Hurting" effect? Maybe leave it only for leg and foot wounds? It's rather silly getting slowed after something bites your hand from behind. I would sprint like a rocket instead, actually, irl.

Edited by zigozag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Budda said:

So it has been brought up to me that Web Armour isn't too predictable/working as it probably should be, and with the discussion on movement speed being a large factor in PvP this will be looked at.

 

Currently WA applies when you hit someone with WA, and gives you reduced movement speed and increased swing timer for a seemingly random amount of time. The random time is down to how it is currently coded, and isn't really intended to work like that - but fixing it would cause a fair buff to WA that seems isn't needed, so we need to do some rebalancing with it - another thing for everyone to discuss.

 

It looks as if WA was originally intended to stick onto the attacker for 10 seconds with it's effects before clearing (if the current randomness was fixed), I first suggest we change that to be a static 5-10s based on the power of the WA cast. 100 power cast would be 10s, 1 power would be 5s.

Now for that time the effect is on the attacker, they would get a status icon like the spell effect icons to show that they are under the effect of WA.

 

With the combination of movement speed reduction from WA as well as the likely hurting status that you're getting in the middle of a fight the attacker can get reduced to ridiculously slow speeds, potentially meaning certain death for them from what I hear. The proposed change for this would be to make it so the WA movement reduction and hurting status don't stack, with the movement reduction scaling based on the WA power as well (which I believe it already does). IF you have the WA effect on you as well as hurting, the larger movement reduction of the two would take effect, but not stack with each other.

 

Currently the swing timer is a flat 5s addition for WA, but I think changing that to be a multiplier of the attacker's normal swing timer would be better, once again dependent on the WA cast. So a power 100 WA cast would cause 2x swing timers for the duration the attacker is under the effect, and a 0 cast WA would mean 1x swing timers for the duration.

 

The idea behind this would make it so AOSP and WA each have their place. AOSP would cause woulds + movement speed reduction via the hurting status, WA would cause movement speed reduction and swing timer increase - but stacking WA and hurting status wouldn't mean certain death.

 

EDIT: Wrote down the wrong idea, fixed now :)

 

 

apparently my original post was incorrect, people below ill explain

Edited by Propheteer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once a server gets past the 18-24 month age, PvP goes down the shitter. Tinkering with all these numbers and the bloated equipment list that is useless won't help a damned thing. Sorry, but I've given up entirely.

 

Peace

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Pinchaloaf said:

Once a server gets past the 18-24 month age, PvP goes down the shitter. Tinkering with all these numbers and the bloated equipment list that is useless won't help a damned thing. Sorry, but I've given up entirely.

 

Peace

it was around 3 years for epic to go down the shitter so somewhere around there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Budda said:

So it has been brought up to me that Web Armour isn't too predictable/working as it probably should be, and with the discussion on movement speed being a large factor in PvP this will be looked at.

 

Currently WA applies when you hit someone with WA, and gives you reduced movement speed and increased swing timer for a seemingly random amount of time. The random time is down to how it is currently coded, and isn't really intended to work like that - but fixing it would cause a fair buff to WA that seems isn't needed, so we need to do some rebalancing with it - another thing for everyone to discuss.

 

It looks as if WA was originally intended to stick onto the attacker for 10 seconds with it's effects before clearing (if the current randomness was fixed), I first suggest we change that to be a static 5-10s based on the power of the WA cast. 100 power cast would be 10s, 1 power would be 5s.

Now for that time the effect is on the attacker, they would get a status icon like the spell effect icons to show that they are under the effect of WA.

 

With the combination of movement speed reduction from WA as well as the likely hurting status that you're getting in the middle of a fight the attacker can get reduced to ridiculously slow speeds, potentially meaning certain death for them from what I hear. The proposed change for this would be to make it so the WA movement reduction and hurting status don't stack, with the movement reduction scaling based on the WA power as well (which I believe it already does). IF you have the WA effect on you as well as hurting, the larger movement reduction of the two would take effect, but not stack with each other.

 

Currently the swing timer is a flat 5s addition for WA, but I think changing that to be a multiplier of the attacker's normal swing timer would be better, once again dependent on the WA cast. So a power 100 WA cast would cause 2x swing timers for the duration the attacker is under the effect, and a 0 cast WA would mean 1x swing timers for the duration.

 

The idea behind this would make it so AOSP and WA each have their place. AOSP would cause woulds + movement speed reduction via the hurting status, WA would cause movement speed reduction and swing timer increase - but stacking WA and hurting status wouldn't mean certain death.

 

EDIT: Wrote down the wrong idea, fixed now :)

Sounds alright.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Budda said:

So it has been brought up to me that Web Armour isn't too predictable/working as it probably should be, and with the discussion on movement speed being a large factor in PvP this will be looked at.

 

Currently WA applies when you hit someone with WA, and gives you reduced movement speed and increased swing timer for a seemingly random amount of time. The random time is down to how it is currently coded, and isn't really intended to work like that - but fixing it would cause a fair buff to WA that seems isn't needed, so we need to do some rebalancing with it - another thing for everyone to discuss.

 

It looks as if WA was originally intended to stick onto the attacker for 10 seconds with it's effects before clearing (if the current randomness was fixed), I first suggest we change that to be a static 5-10s based on the power of the WA cast. 100 power cast would be 10s, 1 power would be 5s that seems a bit high. I understand it's removing WA from the player every 10s of playtime regardless of when they got hit, but slowing the player for such a long time every time they hit their opponent (which they do once every 3-5 seconds typically) would be a pretty severe effect, especially considering it currently applies for a random amount of time between 0-10s the way it works now.

Now for that time the effect is on the attacker, they would get a status icon like the spell effect icons to show that they are under the effect of WA.

 

With the combination of movement speed reduction from WA you may want to change how this works. it's currently subtracting directly from your move speed modifier based on the power of the cast, up to -.5, but this would make more sense to be applied multiplicatively to your move speed modifier, as in *.5, so that if you have a 60% move speed modifier, you are reduced to 30% move speed instead of a mere 10%.  even if it doesnt stack with hurting, the fact that it subtracts from your move speed modifier rather than slowing you to a percentage of your current speed means its proportionally more effective the heavier your armor is, and plate is very common in pvp. as well as the likely hurting status that you're getting in the middle of a fight the attacker can get reduced to ridiculously slow speeds, potentially meaning certain death for them from what I hear. The proposed change for this would be to make it so the WA movement reduction and hurting status don't stack, with the movement reduction scaling based on the WA power as well (which I believe it already does). IF you have the WA effect on you as well as hurting, the larger movement reduction of the two would take effect, but not stack with each other.

 

Currently the swing timer is a flat 5s addition for WA actually it ranges from 0-5 seconds addition based on the web armor cast, so in a way this section is already in effect, but I think changing that to be a multiplier of the attacker's normal swing timer would be better, once again dependent on the WA cast. So a power 100 WA cast would cause 2x swing timers for the duration the attacker is under the effect, and a 0 cast WA would mean 1x swing timers for the duration.

 

The idea behind this would make it so AOSP and WA each have their place. AOSP would cause woulds + movement speed reduction via the hurting status, WA would cause movement speed reduction and swing timer increase - but stacking WA and hurting status wouldn't mean certain death.

 

EDIT: Wrote down the wrong idea, fixed now :)

 

I believe this change would actually be a buff to WA, by making it more reliably WA your opponent for longer durations.  I helped Zekezor look through how WA worked and I think you might be misinterpreting some of it.  Hurting isn't necessarily the issue, but rather the fact that web armor is subtracted from the speed modifier, thus affecting heavier armors more than lighter armors.  The heavier your armor is the lower your speed mod is, and thus the more significant a -.5 subtraction is relative to your current speed modifier.  If you had no speed modifiers, you would have 1 speed mod, and -.5 would be a 50% decrease in your current speed, but if you had armor and a .6 speed mod, a -.5 subtraction from WA would yield a ~83% decrease in your current speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

 

I believe this change would actually be a buff to WA, by making it more reliably WA your opponent for longer durations.  I helped Zekezor look through how WA worked and I think you might be misinterpreting some of it.  Hurting isn't necessarily the issue, but rather the fact that web armor is subtracted from the speed modifier, thus affecting heavier armors more than lighter armors.  The heavier your armor is the lower your speed mod is, and thus the more significant a -.5 subtraction is relative to your current speed modifier.  If you had no speed modifiers, you would have 1 speed mod, and -.5 would be a 50% decrease in your current speed, but if you had armor and a .6 speed mod, a -.5 subtraction from WA would yield a ~83% decrease in your current speed.

f1b2616410.jpg

Well guess I don't need to explain it again now. heh.

 

tldr: the movement system is a bit derpy.

Edited by Zekezor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/19/2016 at 4:58 PM, changer said:

it was around 3 years for epic to go down the shitter so somewhere around there

I don't think this should be an excuse to not start new PvP servers. There hasn't been a legitimate new PvP server in a long time which I think is failing the players, not meeting demand with supply.

 

If it's successful and popular for a few years then it is a win, it is worth doing. And when a server dies, just delete it. Epic doesnt need to exist in its current form, its just a cluster of 4 dead servers right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, MightySheep said:

I don't think this should be an excuse to not start new PvP servers. There hasn't been a legitimate new PvP server in a long time which I think is failing the players, not meeting demand with supply.

 

If it's successful and popular for a few years then it is a win, it is worth doing. And when a server dies, just delete it. Epic doesnt need to exist in its current form, its just a cluster of 4 dead servers right now.

 

The whole point of the recent discussion is because we are tired of bandaid fixes  (which is what a new server is).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this