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Chaos PvP Changes (Wurm PvP changes in general)

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With PvP reaching an all-time low, I figured I’d write up a post about what I think should be done to revitalize the PvP aspect of Chaos, so that new growth starts again.

The process I would like to see will be summarized, and will go into more detail below. It is imperative that this order of events take place so that the population increases:

 

Summary

 

1.       1. Vast changes to Wurms PvP Mechanics – These will be outlined below.

2.       2. A new map brought out in the freedom isles

 

Vast changes to Wurms PvP Mechanics

 

Tower mechanics

 

Capping towers is just too easy, and planting deeds in the middle of nowhere is the new meta to get around enemy deeds and surrounding them. What I propose is the following.

Bring back tower chaining – That is where towers can only be built in your influence. This way there must be progression before you are able to capture a territory. Work needs to be put into movement on the map. “How do PMK’s start” you ask? Simple. A writ of independence, when bought will allow you to drop a tower (ONE USE ONLY) which you will be able to build. This one use will stop abuse (1g a pop) and will allow a PMK to drop a tower at a location of their choice.

Remove tower capping, and bring back tower bashing tactics.

This will add depth to the game, and will also cut down on deeds being dropped easily in random, strategical locations without much effort put in.

 

Village teleporting/”Karmaing”

 

I know this is already touched upon but I think it needs reinforcing.

There should be a 24 hour delay between joining a deed and being able to teleport to it. This will stop the meta of teleporting into any deed on the map at the drop of a hat, but will also allow villages teleport back to their deed if it is being attacked.

This allows for the best of both worlds.

 

Artifacts

 

This is always a heavily debated topic but here goes.

There needs to be some changes to artefacts to make them more useful.

The weapons need to be made more accurate, and swing faster to be more useful – Even AoE special attacks from them would be cool.

Orb of doom – Cmon devs, its 50/50 death. Noone will use it… Put it back to what it was so we can have fun with them again.

Recharging – They currently need recharging so often. That would be fine if the majority of them would be useful. Increase the time to 6 weeks and I think it’ll be better.

 

Twitter/Twitter bots

 

I have always been against twitter alerting people IRL when not actually at their pc’s. Please remove it for PvP as I think it ruins it. You should have to be online to see if your enemies are at your gates, and not leave it to an automated message to wake you up/alert you.

 

Merchant taunting

 

I hate merchants being used as storage.

I hate it so much in fact that I always refused to store my items on a merchant because I believed if m enemies got into my house, they earnt it. PLEASE add merchant taunting onto ALL PvP servers as I believe merchants used as 100% secure storage is abuse of mechanics.

 

Epic loot code

 

I know it has its flaws, but it really needs to be on all PvP servers. This stops people suiciding into a group with throw away gear, downing the one with the most expensive armour on, grabbing the corpse, and praying their res stone works. Please…

 

WL/BL mechanics changes

 

The WL/BL should NOT have any buildings or influence around them for a very very big (1000 tiles or so?). They should not be bash able either and should stay at polar opposites on a map. This way it is fair to all.

 

HotA

 

HotA, like the WL/BL should not have deeds of buildings anywhere near it. It needs a huge radius in which nothing can be built or planted. 500-1000 tiles should be a minimum to stop domination of the HotA with deeds.

 

Off deed mine doors and houses

 

Ever since these were made so that within enemy local they opened I have seen less small groups roam trying to find kills. This mechanic only encourages big zerg groups travelling together because it’s the only real insurance you won’t die. Make it so they can be used off deed, and you will see a lot more people confident enough to get off deed.

 

A new map brought out in the freedom isles

 

For all these changes, we need a new slate. Changing so many mechanics is unfair on the existing players. This will also be beneficial to those being brought over from Epic as all the chaos players have been entrenching for so long.

I would suggest that Chaos is turned into a PvE map, and a new map is brought in. A competition of maps should be taken – That is, a number of maps are provided by both players and staff, and then a poll is taken by the whole population to determine the outcome. This will stop disappointed people (by Rolf maps).

Maps preferably should fall under the following categories:

1. Be the same size as Chaos/Indi.

2. Have a central position for HotA which will be on a steppe/desert/tundra.

3. Two locations, at polar opposites of the map for the WL and the BL.

4. 3 good locations for the three base kingdoms (MR, BL, JK).

5. Plentiful land for PMK’s to settle and to thrive.

6. Numerous mountain ranges, providing choke points, which will encourage dynamic play.

 

Of course the above is a guideline and my personal preference, and the final map would be chosen by the public.

 

Misc. things which don’t need doing

 

Armour changes

 

Since none of us can post on Budda’s post here is my “Suggestions thread”. CHANGE NOTHING TO DO WITH ARMOUR. Armour is FINE. Stop making work to do with PvP for the sake of it. The above suggestions are what PvP NEEDS.

Boat archery rubbish

 

Where the hell did this load of baloney come from? It’s a stupid idea lol. Just make boat speed go off of QL and number of passengers and you’re good.

 

Summary

 

To Summarise everything ive said, I shall put it in bold so that the devs read it correctly. Please implement these changes as I have suggested. Mechanical changes first, map change second. I have spoken to my kingdom about these changes but also other communities and 90% of people have agreed. I personally would push for a epic/chaos merge, however considering the dev negativitiy towards it I have cropped it off of this suggestion. I am now a firm believer that the population is better together but I think that should be somethingh brought up seperately. I expect these changes to be implimented onto test within a week. Two weeks for testing, and then implemented live. 2 months notice on Chaos becomming PvE and a new map comming out.

 

To those who want to show support - Please like and +1 in the thread. To those who want additions/edits please post as such.

 

Heres to a brighter PvP future!

Edited by Redd
Copy/pasted from word, format was messy
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+1 all, although as an epic player, epic loot code can be pretty annoying sometimes when you cant loot your ally's corpse to save it for him, or if a player dies raiding an enemy deed and the enemies purposefully stick an alt in a house near you or suicide run an alt toward you to loot block you

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WTF +1 I agree with EVERYTHING Redd says here. If me and Redd agreeing is not enough, not sure what will be.....

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If chaos were turned into a pve map, I'd rebuild Port Benden in a heartbeat.  Leaving that town has left part of me sad for a very long time.

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+1 to most just wondering how the travel+ crossing freedom/chaos work. All for playing so gear has no money motive as you cannot sell it on freedom, but if like to have a chance to play with my skills on freedom.

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14 minutes ago, Wulfgarr said:

+1 to most just wondering how the travel+ crossing freedom/chaos work. All for playing so gear has no money motive as you cannot sell it on freedom, but if like to have a chance to play with my skills on freedom.

 

sounds like your account crosses but items only cross one way, so like a boat with contents cant cross to freedom, and items in your inventory when crossing to freedom stay in your chaos inventory and dont transfer to freedom, like how writs used to work

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+1 really all nicely summed up, still not sure about the not crossing to freedom part

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Removed items going from Freedom -> Chaos as a thing for the new map :)

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+1 would like to see a rotating hota though random spawn even if at sea.... with 1 hour notice on where it will spawn with a shiney light in sky

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Hmmm id personally would love a little smaller map. Maybe deli size?

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A lot of stuff i can really get behind but only with a new map as you've stated. The main issue and my usual reason for fighting against suggestions like these is that they're stupid on a map that has been built upon years of differerent methods and systems. Not to mention that no amount of changes will change the fact that MR owns so much of the map that these changes would be too little too late for chaos.

 

tl;dr - Yes from me if we had a fresh start.

Edited by Nadroj
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For an older version of the suggestion:

Spoiler

1 way item transfer will simply make players from freedom think twice of visiting the PVP server as every crossing will be effectively costing them their inventory and leave them completely defenseless (all their armor/weapons/stuff will have stayed on the PVP server) whenever they choose to return to freedom. Shutting off the border completely for items and using an upgraded portal system to visit the PVP server will be a better idea if unrestricted item transfer is a no go.

 

Edited by Anothernoob

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Possibly turn off rank decay?

kinda not important but its nice

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1 hour ago, Hoppy said:

Possibly turn off rank decay?

kinda not important but its nice

 

most rank is gotten from missions anyways (at least on epic) which is just silly.  imo rank should only come from kills

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2 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

 

most rank is gotten from missions anyways (at least on epic) which is just silly.  imo rank should only come from kills

disable all rank gains except from kills

disable or increase the time between decay ticks to like a month or something

ezpz

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5 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

 

most rank is gotten from missions anyways (at least on epic) which is just silly.  imo rank should only come from kills

On chaos its hota/tower cap and kills. Afaik no rank from missions.

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I've been working on the final tweaks and balancing changes for the quick changes for PvP testing this weekend, and hoping to get it out in the next 24 hours or so to the test server. With you all being so invested in PvP, I hope you'll all test the changes and not just call them "stupid ideas" just because they're not on yours or your friends wishlist. I've focused so far on the lists of issues that were brought to my attention after the few months of talks with all kingdoms on the PvP servers, and specifically the issues that the majority of people agreed upon. Despite these threads which pop up every week with the same small groups of 10 or 15 people agreeing, the players on Epic and Chaos rarely agree on anything - so I've been focusing on the problems that were agreed upon.

 

One of the problems that was brought up was that Plate armour is the go to for every situation where you don't want to lose your dragon armour. Everyone has worked out that moon metal plate has the best DR, so they just use that for all situations. The negative aspects of plate armour that are meant to balance out the well higher base DR - namely the weight and speed reduction - are being nullified by just being able to unequip armour when you need to run faster, then put it back on immediately when you start fighting again. This is why the armour balance changes and armour equip timer changes have been worked on. We want to make more than Plate armour viable in PvP, as well as opening avenues for more varied combat with the varied DR bonuses against various weapon types. The armour timers is a way to fix the issue of being able to remove and equip armour immediately when your speed needs to be faster or your DR needs to be higher, as well as preemptively adding a negative to the possibly play-style of carrying multiple sets of armour to counter all weapon types when the armour balancing changes goes live.

 

Another problem that I saw a lot of comments on was that boat combat needed work, as currently when one team is nearing death, they'll all just jump on their boat and sail away while being healed up to full with a Fo priest or two. The other team would then jump on their boats, which both go the exact same speed, fire the odd arrow which just gets negated by healing, and repeat until one side gives up and goes home. This is why the boat speed changes and firing at boats has come in. With it I aim to add something extra to these fights by being able to tactically slow down your opponents boat so you can catch them, or they slow you down so you can't catch them. Of course with this being a new idea, it needs testing - but unfortunately everyone has decided to just hate the idea out of principal rather than trying it to see how it works, or how it could be changed to work before it goes live. I've seen a lot of comments of "We need new mechanics!" or "We need sweeping mechanics changes!", but the first sign of these new mechanics and everyone decides they're not needed.

 

With those two points out of the way, let's get on to your suggested ideas. First off you say that PvP needs huge mechanic changes, but your suggested ideas don't really involve massive mechanical changes - a few changes to towers, and a bunch of smaller situational changes. This is one problem I've found over the last month or two - everyone is expecting some sort of magical sweeping changes to happen to PvP to "save" it, but nobody can give me an answer beside all these little situational fixes or balance ideas. One more thing before we go onto specifics: You say your suggested changes are agreed on by 90% of current players, but I would be truly surprised if a legitimate poll of all Chaos players got above 50% agreement on these, which is again a major problem with any of the proposed PvP changes to date, including the ones currently on the test server. So anyway:

 

  1. Tower Changes
    • Up until just recently, changes to towers were actually on my list of things to do, but after speaking more to some people with a lot more experience in PvP than I have, I learned that these are one of the mechanics of PvP that actually work out pretty alright. They also agreed that the capping towers mechanic could use some changes or be removed outright in favor of bashing towers, so that part is still on my list to look at over the coming weeks. Towers as a whole will likely be an ongoing thing to change and tweak depending on how it works out on the live servers, as I don't want to make sweeping changes that messes up everything on Chaos without actually fixing the mechanic at all.
  2. Teleporting
    • This is one of those subjects that literally nobody can agree on. Some people think that teleporting should be removed completely. Others think that you shouldn't be able to teleport to your deed while under attack. Others think that there should be no changes to the current system as they've grown used to it or rely on it or something. I agree with the point of not being able to teleport to your deed within 24 hours of joining it, which is a change that is already on the test server. There have been good arguments either way for blocking teleporting while under siege, or while an enemy is in local - but for now I don't have plans to add onto the teleporting change currently on test.
  3. Artifacts
    • One of the changes that is not brought up in nearly any of the discussions I've been given. As you said yourself, artifacts are a hotly debated subject and one I'm not really interested in getting in the middle of. The last changes made to them for (I presume) balancing reasons was before my time, so I wouldn't trust me to make decisions on what is balanced for them. If you can get all of the kingdoms to agree on a set of proposed balancing changes to artifacts, we will look at adding them in - but I'll be very surprised if I get that list.
  4. Twitter
    • We can look into this, but from what I've been told if this was removed, everyone would go back to the old method of having an alt logged in at all times. Removing it wouldn't fix anything at this point without a serious overhaul on how anyone gets information in game as well.
  5. Merchants
    • Another thing that will be looked into already. It has been an issue and a proposed fix for a while as far as I'm aware.
  6. Remaining
    • The last things on your list are small changes here and there that we can look at, or are already looking at, or have already been looked at. Off deed mine doors and houses is another of those changes that you're either 100% or 100% against, and I know for a fact that before the current iteration of it, mine hopping and door hopping was a huge problem in PvP. You can't pretend that problem won't just come back as strong as it was if it is reverted.

We're not making any decisions at this point regarding new maps. We're not going to trash the Epic servers or merge those accounts onto Chaos, or trash Chaos and move everyone over to a new map. None of these "fixes" will fix anything. Throwing together a new map or new server for everyone to go play on will cause a spike in players for a month or two, and then everyone will realise it's the exact same game and be back here on the forum demanding we "fix pvp" again. We're going to focus on the current set of changes and balance tweaks and see how they go on the live servers over the near future before putting any thought into sweeping server changes or anything similar. I should also add that the above talk is mostly regarding Chaos, despite the same changes going to Epic - I have more plans for Epic to do with fixing long standing Valrei issues and missions etc.

 

I'll just finish this post off with a final explanation on why I tend to avoid responding to these topics that seem to pop up on a weekly basis from a different group of players. Everyone has their own opinion on what Wurm should be and could be. It's a great game and I know we all love it, otherwise we wouldn't be here and wouldn't kick up so much of a fuss over these things. The suggestions section of this forum is one of the largest parts of the website because everyone can see what the potential of this game can be beyond what it already is, and that is great. However, the PvP community for Wurm has (and always has had) very unwavering opinions on what should or should not be done, you can go back years and find both praise and hate for every single change made to PvP servers - and honestly this makes it hard as a developer to make these changes. We may know that every single change we make will both be hated and liked, but that doesn't make it any easier to come in and read these threads and respond with a straight face. Your final summary is a prime example of these why I don't respond to these threads - you start of with some actual good points, then slowly slip into trolling territory. Trolling the devs isn't going to make us like you or do what you want, more likely that the opposite will happen.

 

We're here to work with you all to improve PvP, not take a list of demands and expectations. Jump on the test server, try things out and let me know how they go. If things don't work, we want to know how and why so we can try fixing them. Reading and reacting to patch notes gives us almost no valuable feedback for what we're wanting to test and try, so just give things a go and try have an open mind. And on that note, the PvP test server is just about to be updated with the latest changes - so time I go and write those patch notes.

 

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@Budda

 

Ah yes, I knew this one was coming. 

 

I have a question. Do you play on the PvP servers? The answer is most likely no.

 

Why do you so frequently shoot down suggestions to PvP which have a large backing and yet push in your own mechanical changes which have had no discussion, and no suggestion. I'm so glad you so highly favor your own ideas over the ideas of the PLAYERS - which really leads me to the belief that this is why th game is dying.

 

The PvP community is dying. Changes are needed. Fast. These changes do not need to be a complete overhaul of the combat system, but of how the game is PLAYED.

 

If you read my suggestion (which based off of your answer says you didn't) then you would have read that I was suggestin all these mechanical changes are to be brought out on a new map to provide the following things:

1. A fair level playing field where all these new mechanics can be used by all kingdoms from the start.

2. The influx of players will provide a much larger PvP population meaning more people will test out these new brilliant changes. My prediction is that most of them will stay as these changes is what would keep me to stay.

 

Either way, if this is your answer from a dev position then this can be closed as honestly there is no point any of us playing PvP anymore. The population is just going to get smaller and smaller whilst the whole time not listening to the player base on what should be done.

 

If this is not your answer saying it won't be done then I would like this thread to remain open so that the devs can see the overwealming support for it.

Edited by Redd

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6 minutes ago, Redd said:

@Budda

 

Ah yes, I knew this one was coming. 

 

I have a question. Do you play on the PvP servers? The answer is most likely no.

 

Why do you so frequently shoot down suggestions to PvP which have a large backing and yet push in your own mechanical changes which have had no discussion, and no suggestion. I'm so glad you so highly favor your own ideas over the ideas of the PLAYERS - which really leads me to the belief that this is why th game is dying.

 

The PvP community is dying. Changes are needed. Fast. These changes do not need to be a complete overhaul of the combat system, but of how the game is PLAYED.

 

Either way, if this is your answer from a dev position then this can be closed as honestly there is no point any of us playing PvP anymore.

 

If this is not your answer saying it won't be done then I would like this thread to remain open so that the devs can see the overwealming support for it.

 

So despite me mostly agreeing with your points or saying they're being looked at, the only thing you take away from my post is that I'm ignoring all of your ideas and pushing my own changes because I won't commit to adding new servers or nuking existing servers before changes are made?

 

It's clear discussions aren't actually wanted and you just want to demand your changes, so I think I'll take your suggestion and lock this thread.

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All of the major topics you made a statement about with the exception of one is something you said you can look into/we can look into, but all of those topics are what doesn't majorly affect balance hardly at all, but what keeps many players from returning to the game.

 

Understandable, they do work quite alright, but since towercapping has come in a lot of unintentional abuse has come in too.

Teleporting, yep, forgot about that change.

Artifacts, i'm sure we can come up with something. The problem is that most of the community wants them to be all okay with a unique and novel idea surrounding each artifact, whereas currently most of them are bland, and useless and always have been that way, and the only time they werent useless was when they oneshot people.

I'm not sure who told you alts would be parked at deeds, but that didn't even happen before? Maybe in one or two scenarios.

 

I appreciate you're working on these, but the reasons these are such hot topics is because of the population shift they cause.

 

 

Edited by Propheteer
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