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Alexgopen

Permission System PVP Bugs

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EDIT: Many of the bugs in this thread are still not fixed after all these years since the introduction of the new permission system. 

 

I will post the confirmed-as-still-broken bugs immediately below.  I will leave the old post as part of this thread, and will adjust the bugs reported in it by crossing out things that are fixed, changing text to red for things that are confirmed as still broken, and leaving as black text things that we are unsure of.

 

Bugs confirmed to still exist since this thread was originally made:

 

Leading on enemy deeds

Problem: We cannot lead any untamed horses on enemy deeds, even as unlawful or without Templars, which means we can not raid horses to use for PvP or raiding homeservers

How it used to work: You could lead horses on enemy deeds at any time, even if the templar was alive and the permission was not allowed, because why would you abide by an enemy's laws?

A solution: Either have enemy deed laws not apply to players not of their kingdom, or require a templar to be alive to enforce the laws. In the past laws didn't take effect unless a templar was alive, which meant you could kill a deeds Templars to break laws as any kingdom, but this is no longer the case, making raiding often either much more difficult or even impossible in certain situations if you are same kingdom

Note: Horses can currently be lead by using a bind to do the action, but unless you have LEAD bound to a key, there is no way to lead horses, and lead does not appear in the right-click menu.

 

Unable to take from bsbs in houses

Problem: Bsbs/fsbs in houses often will not let you take from them (even without a lock), as when you try to drag their contents to your inventory it responds "You must use steal to do that.", but there is no way to use steal on the contents of a bsb.

How it used to work: You would be able to take from bsbs inside houses

A solution: Allow taking from bsbs inside houses, and if the house owner wants permission control or security over their bsb, they should attach a lock, rather than having 100% secure moonmetal/drake/etc storage by default/bug. 

 

Unable to steal items from houses you lockpick into

Problem: You cannot use steal inside of houses you lockpick into, even off deed.  Steal is only possible if at least one of the house's walls are destroyed, so that the permissions do not take effect. Right now on PVP you get the message "Stealing is punishable by the death penalty in these lands and you decide not to." even if you are on unlawful.

How it used to work: You could steal from inside of undamaged houses by right clicking and using the steal option. 

A solution: Allow stealing from inside of houses on PVP by going unlawful.

 

Non-tame/non-branded horses not moving after relogging

Problem: When you crash or have to relog and you are on a non-tamed/non-branded mount while in combat you can't move unless you dismount the horse. 

How it used to work: Never happened prior to the perm system change. When relogging on a horse it worked as usual.

A solution: Allow any ridden mount to move after relogging. This is most likely a bug with the permissions system seeing you don't personally "own" that mount.

Note: This often also happens if you get relogged by the game when the embark bug happens.  If it happens from the embark bug, disembarking the horse will also bug you and cause you to relog, and then the next time you embark on the horse it will be unable to move.  If the embark bug happens to you while on an enemy deed, it will make you momentarily leave the world, and when it reconnects you, you end up outside the enemy deed.  This could easily be abused in PVP by repeatedly embarking and disembarking your horse until the embark bug happens, to get teleported outside the enemy deed, and escape your attackers. 

 

Can't drag same-kingdom locked boats

Problem: You cannot drag locked boats, even if they aren't moored. 

How it used to work: You could drag same kingdom locked boats unless they were moored.

A solution: If a boat isn't moored and doesn't have a captain, we should be able to drag it. If you want to prevent a boat from being dragged, you should have to moor it. 

 

Receive hunted status for attempting actions in lawful

Problem: Now receive hunted status for attempting actions you aren't allowed to do, even though it prevents you from actually doing the action, and even though you are in lawful mode.

How it used to work: If you were in lawful mode it would prevent you from doing things you weren't allowed to, and it would not penalize you since it prevented you from doing the action.

A solution: Do not penalize/set players hunted for actions they attempt while in lawful mode. 

Note: An example of something that causes this is using a lead bind on a deed that disallows leading, while in Lawful.  It will fail to lead the horse, but you will become hunted anyways, despite being in Lawful.

 

 

 

Old post below:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ever since the new permission system was added, many things that were normally possible on the PvP cluster Epic became impossible.  Many of these problems seem to be unintended bugs, and numerous complaints have been raised about them, but for the most part they have still not been fixed. This thread is for compiling a list of all of the permissions issues that epic has experienced since the addition of the new permission system, and ways that game mechanics have changed for the worse or become impossible under the new system as opposed to the old.  As you post your discovered permissions bugs and complaints, I will add them to this post.

 

Format your replies like

Problem:

How it used to work:

A solution:

 

Before you get into reading these, here are the most important issues that would clear up a lot of these problems:

LAWS SHOULD NOT BE UPHELD UNLESS THERE IS A LIVING TEMPLAR TO ENFORCE THEM.

PERMISSIONS SHOULD NOT BE UPHELD UNLESS THERE IS A LOCK ATTACHED. 

THE OPTION TO BREAK THE LAW MUST BE AVAILABLE.

 

New permission system issues:

 

Laws are upheld without live templars

Problem: Deed laws are enforced even if the deed hired no templars, or even if all of the templars are dead.  This has been very abusable by unjustly making actions impossible, and has allowed enemies to use deeds on homeservers in order to prevent their boats from being picked by defenders there.

How it used to work: Living templars were required for deed laws to be enforced, and to break the law you had to kill templars before doing illegal actions, or go unlawful and break the law, thus putting you on KOS. If the deed had no templars, then you could do whatever you wanted.

A Solution: Make deed laws take no effect on pvp servers unless there is a living templar.  Allow players the option to break the laws, with the consequence that the templars will attack them and KOS them on that deed. 

 

Leading on enemy deeds

Problem: We cannot lead any untamed horses on enemy deeds, even as unlawful or without Templars, which means we can not raid horses to use for PvP or raiding homeservers

How it used to work: You could lead horses on enemy deeds at any time, even if the templar was alive and the permission was not allowed, because why would you abide by an enemy's laws?

A solution: Either have enemy deed laws not apply to players not of their kingdom, or require a templar to be alive to enforce the laws. In the past laws didn't take effect unless a templar was alive, which meant you could kill a deeds Templars to break laws as any kingdom, but this is no longer the case, making raiding often either much more difficult or even impossible in certain situations if you are same kingdom

Note: Horses can currently be lead by using a bind to do the action, but unless you have LEAD bound to a key, there is no way to lead horses, and lead does not appear in the right-click menu.

 

Unlocked unowned vehicles can't be boarded on deeds 

Problem: You cannot embark on an unlocked vehicle on a deed if it doesn't have you in its permissions, even if its unlocked, you are unlawful and the deed has no templar

How it used to work: Unlocked vehicles were always usable by anyone, because a lock should be required to enforce their permissions. This allowed for picking and taking vehicles, which now became impossible.

A solution: Don't enforce vehicle permissions unless it has a lock, and dont enforce deed permissions unless it has a live templar.

 

Can't remove locks

Problem: If you are not the owner of something (chest, cart, boat, bsb, etc), you cannot remove the lock with the key anymore. The detail of an object having an imaginary owner preventing you from removing a lock with the key is immersion breaking, especially when you can already access it's contents by opening it while holding the key.  You are also prevented from sailing any boat you find the key to, you may only access the hold.

How it used to work: If you found the keys to something you could use them to remove the lock without needing to pick it.  People often held onto high ql keys they found and over time would figure out what they went to.  You could also board and sail ships as long as you held the key. 

A solution: Enable removing locks from objects by using the key on PvP servers 

 

Unable to take from bsbs in houses

Problem: Bsbs/fsbs in houses often will not let you take from them (even without a lock), as when you try to drag their contents to your inventory it responds "You must use steal to do that.", but there is no way to use steal on the contents of a bsb.

How it used to work: You would be able to take from bsbs inside houses

A solution: Allow taking from bsbs inside houses, and if the house owner wants permission control or security over their bsb, they should attach a lock, rather than having 100% secure moonmetal/drake/etc storage by default/bug. 

 

Unable to steal items from houses you lockpick into

Problem: You cannot use steal inside of houses you lockpick into, even off deed.  Steal is only possible if at least one of the house's walls are destroyed, so that the permissions do not take effect. Right now on PVP you get the message "Stealing is punishable by the death penalty in these lands and you decide not to." even if you are on unlawful.

How it used to work: You could steal from inside of undamaged houses by right clicking and using the steal option. 

A solution: Allow stealing from inside of houses on PVP by going unlawful.

 

Can't target same kingdom templars

Problem: You can't target same kingdom templars in order to kill them and break laws. You first have to be KOS'ed somehow in order to autoretaliate to kill them, during which it won't let you change targets to a different templar, it only lets you kill the one that attacked you first, and then the next one to hit you after its dead you then autoretaliate to, etc.  Not even the mayor can target his own deed's templars.

How it used to work: You could go unlawful in order to target and kill same kingdom templars, in order to break same kingdom deed laws.

A solution: You should be able to target same kingdom templars by going unlawful.

 

Can't lockpick same kingdom doors

Problem: You cannot lockpick doors of houses owned by a player in the same kingdom as you on elevation.

How it used to work: You could lockpick any door or gate by going unlawful.

A solution: Allow lockpicking same kingdom doors/gates by going unlawful.

Note: Fixed

 

Non-tame/non-branded horses not moving after relogging

Problem: When you crash or have to relog and you are on a non-tamed/non-branded mount while in combat you can't move unless you dismount the horse. 

How it used to work: Never happened prior to the perm system change. When relogging on a horse it worked as usual.

A solution: Allow any ridden mount to move after relogging. This is most likely a bug with the permissions system seeing you don't personally "own" that mount.

Note: This often also happens if you get relogged by the game when the embark bug happens.  If it happens from the embark bug, disembarking the horse will also bug you and cause you to relog, and then the next time you embark on the horse it will be unable to move.  If the embark bug happens to you while on an enemy deed, it will make you momentarily leave the world, and when it reconnects you, you end up outside the enemy deed.  This could easily be abused in PVP by repeatedly embarking and disembarking your horse until the embark bug happens, to get teleported outside the enemy deed, and escape your attackers. 

 

Can't drag same-kingdom locked boats

Problem: You cannot drag locked boats, even if they aren't moored. 

How it used to work: You could drag same kingdom locked boats unless they were moored.

A solution: If a boat isn't moored and doesn't have a captain, we should be able to drag it. If you want to prevent a boat from being dragged, you should have to moor it. 

 

Alliance/Citizen permissions on vehicles don't work off deed

Problem: Added alliance Command, Passenger, Open, and Drag permissions to a sailboat. Nobody in my alliance was able to use it. Had to add them individually by name. The boat was off-deed at the time and later was able to allow Alliance/Citizens to board when the boat was on a deeded tile. 

How it used to work: Alliance/Citizen permissions applied to members of your alliance, allowing them to use your vehicles whether they were on deed at the time or not. 

A solution: Allow the Alliance/Citizen allow permissions to work off deed.  We need to be able to board on our allies' boats for PvP without having to stop before a fight and manually add each individual person, wasting lots of time.

 

Cannot load unowned planted objects

Problem: Cannot load planted objects you do not own, even if you are enemy.

How it used to work: You could take planted objects by loading them anytime if you were enemy, or when the laws allowed you/went unlawful as same kingdom.

A solution: Allow loading of planted objects if enemy, or subject to the laws/lawfulness if same kingdom.

 

Receive hunted status for attempting actions in lawful

Problem: Now receive hunted status for attempting actions you aren't allowed to do, even though it prevents you from actually doing the action, and even though you are in lawful mode.

How it used to work: If you were in lawful mode it would prevent you from doing things you weren't allowed to, and it would not penalize you since it prevented you from doing the action.

A solution: Do not penalize/set players hunted for actions they attempt while in lawful mode.

 

Alliance/Citizens of "" deed permissions don't work right on buildings

Problem: If you have alliance/citizen permission to access a building, then log off until you leave the world and log back into that building, it ejects you from the building as if you don't have permission to it, and on a PvP server that means falling out of your longhouses, down off of your dirtwalls, to splat on the ground and die hundreds of slope below your deed. 

How it used to work: You were not ejected from buildings if you had permission on them. 

A solution: Do not eject players from buildings upon logging in if they have Alliance/Village enter permission.

 

 

Old permissions issues (not from the new permission system) that don't belong on a PvP server:

 

Can't sacrifice on enemy deeds (or friendly ones where you're KOS'ed)

Problem: You cannot sacrifice anything (items or animals) on an enemy deed.  There isn't really a reason we shouldn't be able to do this unless the templars are disallowing it.

A solution: Allow sacrificing on enemy deeds as long as the templars are dead.

Edited by Alexgopen
updating for bugs that still exist
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There was a bug where you sometimes couldn't loot things from fsbs/bsbs that were inside houses (offdeed only?)

dunno if it was ever fixed

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Can no longer lock pick doors for same kingdom (on elevation) or kill mounts hitched to a cart owned by same kingdom

 

*Edit: I think you still cant sacrifice on enemy deed either (in altars or sacrificing animals)

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almost 100% positive this is due to the perm system as well 

Spoiler

 

 

Problem: When you crash or have to relog and you are on a non-tamed mount while in combat you can't move unless you dismount the horse. 

How it used to work: Literally never happened prior to the perm system change. When relogging on a horse it worked as usual.

A solution: Fix the perm system bugs

 

edit: also non-moored locked boats aren't able to be dragged isn't this a bug for pvp servers or am I crazy?

Edited by platinumteef
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1 hour ago, SmeJack said:

*Edit: I think you still cant sacrifice on enemy deed either (in altars or sacrificing animals)

 

That was the case even before the new permission system, and I think it's intended in order to prevent easily spamming disintigrate or using a deed's own saccables against them, but I agree I don't think this mechanic belongs on a pvp server either.

 

18 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

edit: also non-moored locked boats aren't able to be dragged isn't this a bug for pvp servers or am I crazy?

 

That was also the case even before the new permission system, at least for enemy boats, I think in order to prevent you from dragging them to shore and walling them up if enemies logged off or something. At least I remember way back when I was JK and we lost some BL who logged out on their boat that wasn't moored we couldn't do anything about it because it was so far out at sea and we couldn't drag it.  I also agree that this doesn't sense on a pvp server.  A lock + mooring anchor sure because then you can't captain it to unmoor and then drag it, but for it to be undraggable even without a mooring anchor breaks immersion and seems to not fit on a pvp server.

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You can drag if it is your kingdom, to make it your kingdom you pick it, seems fine to me and yeah not new its the same with carts even if unlocked you just have to command first.

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1 minute ago, SmeJack said:

You can drag if it is your kingdom, to make it your kingdom you pick it, seems fine to me and yeah not new its the same with carts even if unlocked you just have to command first.

 

Yea but the complaint is why is a lock preventing it from being dragged, that's what mooring anchors do.

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I wouldn't complain about it forcing anchors would be awful, if you want the boat then you should pick it imo and not devalue picking skill, pick it where it is rather than dragging somewhere to nerd in safety.

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Also you cannot even drag your own kingdom's boats because of this

 

v8N5K41.png

 

49NjHJE.png

 

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Yes because the lock enforces the new permissions, prior to the update there was no option to prevent that so you could drag it if unmoored. As it is you cant drag an unlocked boat or cart if it is not your kingdom. If it is locked well then you should have to get that off before you can.

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IMO it's an unwanted change. A lock on a boat shouldn't stop you from dragging it through water on a pvp server, unless it is moored. Game mechanics should make sense, not just be "because I said so" wogic.  It's not freedom where you can enforce everything through magic because "Stealing is punishable by the death penalty in these parts so you decide not to."

 

Also not trying to devalue lockpicking as you claim, I just think this is a bad game mechanic

byfiD4p.png

Edited by Alexgopen
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Old permission system for doing bad things was better :P

First problem i had with new system was getting in cart(not my cart) with having lock can see items but not take out them was so @#*&^%$ :angry:

 

I hope for change but probably will not happen because of same code for PvP and PvE servers

 

Alex you should demand wage for doing staffs work ^_^

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The only change was not allowing same kingdom to drag while locked, you couldn't drag an enemy boat prior locked or not so that one is a suggestion not a bug.

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This is great, thank you so much for putting this together,,

 

I've passed this on to the dev team to hopefully address

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Just a note to say your notes are not being ignored.  Please continue to update your original post with issues.  

 

The format you are using is helpful to the devs.

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On 8/1/2016 at 10:06 PM, Alexgopen said:

Can't kill mounts on same kingdom carts

Problem: You cannot kill mounts hitched to carts owned by a player in the same kingdom as you

How it used to work: You could attack any mob, regardless of if it was hitched or not

A solution: Allow attacking mounts hitched to same kingdom players' carts.  This is an anti-grief measure as the community will always work together against the griefers, while a griefer can't easily kill everyone else's hitched mounts on their own.  Giving a lone griefer invulnerable hitched mounts so they can escape safely with loot they stole from you is a horrible idea.

 

Can you tell me if this one is still applicable? 

 

If so, can you give me details - on deed, off deed, pmk, carts with locks, unlocked carts, etc?

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