Cedar containers slow down decay of their contents. No, really.

[Ostentatio 1,970]

Disclaimer to avoid confusion: This post was written in 2016 and is no longer accurate. Cedar containers no longer slow down the decay of their contents any more than other containers do.

I wrote this based on my own in-game testing prior to being on the development team, and while the information was correct at the time, it no longer is, and has not been for quite a while.

 

 

Conventional wisdom dictates that cedar items decay more slowly, but that cedar containers do nothing to slow down the decay of their contents.

 

Turns out this is actually wrong, and cedar containers do, in fact, slow down the decay of their contents, in addition to cedar items themselves taking less damage.

 

In fact, it stacks. A cedar item, or an item in a cedar container, decays more slowly. A cedar item inside a cedar container decays even more slowly. In fact, the more cedar containers are nested inside each other, the better the effect. For example, an item inside a cedar bucket, inside a cedar large barrel, inside a cedar raft, inside a cedar wagon takes quite significantly less damage than normal.

 

For some background on this and where I got the idea, see here:

 

Of course, the decay code is essentially a basilisk and scares the hell out of me, and empirical data is always a good idea, so I've run a couple tests over the past several days.

 

If you don't care to read lots of numbers and rambling statements, feel free to skip to "Overall Conclusions" at the bottom of this post.

 

Methodology: Removed hundreds of cooked meat from a food storage bin, then placed them in various off-deed, outdoor containers in a secure area. I then checked back a certain time later and noted how much decay was on the meat in each container, and how much (if any) had already completely been destroyed due to 100+ decay damage.

 

Meat QL is not quite the same from test to test, so specific decay values can't really be compared between them.

 

Container QL does not matter, but is listed anyway for the sake of completeness, and I've tried to use roughly equivalent QL of containers anyway. Damage is 0 when not specified.

 

Also note: "Cedar count" below means how many containers in the chain are cedar. For example, meat inside a cedar bucket inside a firwood raft inside a cedar caravel would have a cedar count of 2.

 

Test 1: Two barrels, one cedar and one fir, placed on the ground off-deed and outdoors. Each barrel contains one cedar bucket, three cotton satchels, and the rest of the barrel filled with meat. Initial meat QL not recorded but was likely 46.61QL. Meat left to ripen for approximately 2 or 3 days (not certain; all that's important is all the meat in this test decayed for the same amount of time).

 

Please note that average damage of meat inside a container may be very misleading if some of the meat has already decayed away entirely, since those are not factored into the average; a container's meat stack may have significantly more decay than another even with lower average damage, if it has suffered more total loss of meat items, since the average is only the average damage of REMAINING meat in the stack.

 

Results:

• Cedar Barrel (41.65 QL)
  • 61 meat (Cedar count: 1, avg. 37.53 dmg): 7 - 0 dmg, 11 - 8.58 dmg, 9 - 17.97 dmg, 8 - 42.91 dmg, 17 - 57.94 dmg, 9 - 78.34 dmg, 0 destroyed
  • Cedar Small Bucket (30.93 QL)
    • 47 meat (Cedar count: 2, avg. 18.30 dmg): 13 - 0 dmg, 11 - 8.58 dmg, 8 - 25.74 dmg, 15 - 37.30 dmg, 0 destroyed
  • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL)
    • 71 meat (Cedar count: 1, avg. 28.78 dmg): 8 - 0 dmg, 23 - 8.58 dmg, 13 - 17.97 dmg, 9 - 42.91 damage, 9 - 57.94  dmg, 0 destroyed
  • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL)
    • 71 meat (Cedar count: 1, avg. 33.66 dmg): 9 - 0 dmg, 16 - 8.58 dmg, 9 - 17.97 dmg, 13 - 42.91 dmg, 17 - 57.94 dmg, 7 - 78.34 dmg, 0 destroyed
  • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL)
    • 71 meat (Cedar count: 1, avg. 37.98 dmg): 9 - 0 dmg, 16 - 8.58 dmg, 6 - 17.97 dmg, 6 - 42.91 dmg, 23 - 57.94 dmg, 11 - 78.34 dmg, 0 destroyed
• Fir Barrel (42.37 QL)
  • 43 meat (Cedar count: 0, avg. of remaining 39.13 dmg): 3 - 0 dmg, 11 - 8.58 dmg, 7 - 17.97 dmg, 8 - 28.43 dmg, 4 - 68.85 dmg, 10 - 96.03 dmg, 18 destroyed (29.5% loss)
  • Cedar Small Bucket (31.70 QL)
    • 47 meat (Cedar count: 1, avg. 30.95 dmg): 10 - 0 dmg, 12 - 8.58 dmg, 5 - 17.97 dmg, 4 - 42.91 dmg, 8 - 57.94 dmg, 8 - 78.34 dmg, 0 destroyed
  • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL)
    • 56 meat (Cedar count: 0, avg. of remaining 37.20 dmg): 5 - 0 dmg, 15 - 8.58 dmg, 13 - 17.97 dmg, 6 - 28.43 dmg, 3 - 68.65 dmg, 14 - 96.03 dmg, 15 destroyed (21.1% loss)
  • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL)
    • 57 meat (Cedar count: 0, avg. of remaining 38.36 dmg): 8 - 0 dmg, 13 - 8.58 dmg, 13 - 17.97 dmg, 3 - 28.43 dmg, 6 - 68.65 dmg, 14 - 96.03 dmg, 14 destroyed (19.7% loss)
  • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL)
    • 49 meat (Cedar count: 0, avg. of remaining 35.59 dmg): 6 - 0 dmg, 12 - 8.58 dmg, 10 - 17.97 dmg, 7 - 28.43 dmg, 3 - 68.65 dmg, 11 - 96.03 dmg, 22 destroyed (31.0% loss)

 

Tentative conclusions from test 1:

1. Time between decay damage ticks is somewhat highly randomized.
   • Higher sample size/more tests needed to determine if time between decay ticks is influenced by cedar.
2. Damage due to a single decay tick is entirely deterministic, as only certain values were encountered. Damage amount definitely appears to depend on how many cedar containers "deep" an item is stored within (including, presumably, the item itself being cedar). For example, the same damage "steps" are encountered in the meat stack inside a cotton satchel inside a cedar barrel, as encountered in the meat stack inside a cedar bucket inside a fir barrel, because each has a single cedar container somewhere up the chain (cedar count: 1). Meanwhile, the meat stack inside the cedar bucket inside a cedar barrel (cedar count: 2) has different values from the rest.
3. Cedar containers definitely slow decay. With a sample size of a few hundred meat, and the amount of consistency we see here, this is essentially certain. The only meat stacks with any totally-lost items are ones with a cedar count of 0.
4. Multiple nested cedar containers certainly seem to slow decay further. Stacks with a cedar count greater of 2 seem to take less damage on average than stacks with a cedar count of 1, and the damage tick sizes are different in magnitude (see #2 above), but more testing is needed.

 

These results were pretty encouraging, so I decided to do another test.

 

Test 2: Testing to see results of more varied cedar container nesting. One fir barrel placed on the ground off-deed and outdoors, containing three cotton satchels filled with meat. A cedar wagon also parked nearby, containing: 85 meat and one cedar raft. Cedar raft inside wagon contains three cedar buckets and three cotton satchels, all filled with meat. Each barrel contains one cedar bucket, three cotton satchels, and the rest of the barrel filled with meat. Initial meat QL equal to 45.21. Meat left to ripen for approximately 3 days, 18 hours.

 

Please note in this test that the starting meat QL is not the same as in the prior test, and it was left to decay for a longer period, so please do not compare numbers between the two tests! Don't do it! I mean it!

 

• Fir Barrel (42.37 QL, 2.0 dmg)
  • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL, 9.5 dmg)
    • 35 meat (Cedar count: 0, avg. of remaining 37.52 dmg): 1 - 0 dmg, 2 - 8.85 dmg, 5 - 18.55 dmg, 7 - 29.42 dmg, 11 - 41.95 dmg, 8 - 57.19 dmg, 1 - 77.86 dmg, 36 destroyed (50.7% loss)
  • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL, 9.5 dmg)
    • 39 meat (Cedar count: 0, avg. of remaining 39.36 dmg): 3 - 8.85 dmg, 6 - 18.55 dmg, 12 - 29.42 dmg, 4 - 41.95 dmg, 10 - 57.19 dmg, 1 - 70.78 dmg, 3 - 77.86 dmg, 32 destroyed (45.1% loss)
  • Cotton Satchel (10.09 QL, 9.9 dmg)
    • 31 meat (Cedar count: 0, avg. of remaining 33.54 dmg): 2 - 8.85 dmg, 4 - 18.55 dmg, 15 - 29.42 dmg, 7 - 41.95 dmg, 1 - 57.19 dmg, 2 - 77.86 dmg, 40 destroyed (56.3% loss)
• Cedar Wagon (40.482 QL, 7.54 dmg)
  • 70 meat (Cedar count: 1, avg. of remaining 43.10 dmg): 2 - 0 dmg, 14 - 8.85 dmg, 11 - 18.55 dmg, 7 - 29.42 dmg, 3 - 41.95 dmg, 3 - 44.24 dmg, 11 - 60.10 dmg, 19 - 82.28 dmg, 15 destroyed (17.6% loss)
  • Cedar Raft (16.72 QL)
    • Cedar Bucket (30.93 QL)
      • 47 meat (Cedar count: 3, avg. 17.95 dmg): 9 - 0 dmg, 12 - 8.85 dmg, 5 - 17.69 dmg, 4 - 18.55 dmg, 11 - 28.44 dmg, 6 - 40.81 dmg, 0 destroyed
    • Cedar Bucket (31.82 QL)
      • 47 meat (Cedar count: 3, avg. 20.15 dmg): 3 - 0 dmg, 12 - 8.85 dmg, 9 - 17.69 dmg, 6 - 18.55 dmg, 10 - 28.44 dmg, 7 - 40.81 dmg, 0 destroyed
    • Cedar Bucket (31.70 QL)
      • 47 meat (Cedar count: 3, avg. 18.11 dmg): 8 - 0 dmg, 10 - 8.85 dmg, 6 - 17.69 dmg, 6 - 18.55 dmg, 12 - 28.44 dmg, 5 - 40.81 dmg, 0 destroyed
    • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL)
      • 71 meat (Cedar count: 2, avg. 23.96 dmg): 8 - 0 dmg, 22 - 8.85 dmg, 10 - 18.55 dmg, 6 - 26.54 dmg, 3 - 29.42 dmg, 9 - 38.59 dmg, 11 - 52.99 dmg, 2 - 71.81 dmg, 0 destroyed
    • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL)
      • 71 meat (Cedar count: 2, avg. 33.68 dmg): 2 - 0 dmg, 11 - 8.85 dmg, 14 - 18.55 dmg, 5 - 26.54 dmg, 3 - 29.42 dmg, 17 - 38.59 dmg, 11 - 52.99 dmg, 8 - 71.81 dmg, 0 destroyed
    • Cotton Satchel (10.49 QL)
      • 71 meat (Cedar count: 2, avg. 25.94 dmg): 7 - 0 dmg, 15 - 8.85 dmg, 14 - 18.55 dmg, 4 - 26.54 dmg, 9 - 29.42 dmg, 10 - 38.59 dmg, 9 - 52.99 dmg, 3 - 71.81 dmg, 0 destroyed

 

Tentative conclusions from test 2:

1. Conclusions from test 1 seem to have held water.
2. Higher cedar count definitely seems to matter, possibly without bound. Meat stacks with cedar count 0 suffered much more item loss than meat stacks with cedar count 1. Stacks with cedar count of 2 or 3 suffered no item loss, but every stack with cedar count 2 suffered greater total damage, and greater maximum damage on any single item, than every stack with cedar count 3.
3. More testing may still be necessary to determine if time between decay ticks is affected by cedar count.

 

That was a lot of numbers and words to type, so... let's finish this up, shall we?

 

Overall conclusions:

1. Cedar containers slow down the decay of their contents.
2. The more cedar containers an item is nested in, going all the way up to the highest parent container, the more the decay of that item is slowed.
   • For example, an item inside a cedar bucket, inside a willow raft, inside a cedar knarr (2 cedar containers), will decay more slowly than an item inside a cedar bucket in inventory, a birch knarr, etc. (1 cedar container).
   • If you want to slow decay on an item but don't have a magical chest, you can't bank it, and you can't or don't want to put it in the inventory of yourself or a storage alt, your best bet is probably to nest as many cedar containers as possible ([[[[[Bucket] Large Barrel] Raft] Huge Tub] Vehicle]?), inside a building, on-deed.
3. Amphorae also slow decay of contents, as confirmed by staff (see linked post above).
   1. According to WU code, the effect is the same in magnitude as it is for a cedar wooden container, and implemented the same way, so you can still benefit from nesting an amphora inside a cedar container or vice versa. I may test to verify this in the future.
4. Cedar is, more than ever, the obvious choice for pretty much anything that serves as a container, whether it's a ship, a chest, a barrel, or anything else you can make out of wood.
5. Almond milk, while vegan-friendly and not unhealthy, should not be construed as a nutritional replacement for animal milk, as the former is lacking in many important nutrients found in the latter, especially protein content.
6. I am a very tired man.

[Nomadikhan 2,196]

Read the entire post.  Very interesting!

Edited July 21, 2016 by Nomadikhan

[Yossarian 32]

Excellent data and analysis Ostentatio! Always knew cedar was an awesome material  

[Huntar 1,692]

everything i know about wurm has just been turned inside out for me

[JakeRivers 2,921]

watch the dev's to implement a emergency patch in the morning and fix this atrocity! everything must decay

[Odynn 2,248]

interesting as always, specially the point 4 in your conclusion, well done man.

[GoldFever 299]

If I sleep in a cedar bed do I live longer?

[Ostentatio 1,970]

59 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

watch the dev's to implement a emergency patch in the morning and fix this atrocity! everything must decay

 

I would honestly be okay with them getting rid of the recursive bonus from nested containers. It's a bit cheesy to take advantage of, and annoying. Basic game design principles would say that if the optimal choice is the one that's weird, counterintuitive, and annoying to do, that's not really a good thing.

 

It's also kind of weird how cedar does this for everything, even if it's a "container" like an armor stand or something (although I didn't test those specifically), or an open cart or bucket.

[Galadhel 92]

Very interesing, informative and well fleshed out analysis.

also : LOL @#5 :-)

[Ostentatio 1,970]

18 hours ago, GoldFever said:

If I sleep in a cedar bed do I live longer?

 

You know what this post gets?

 

[bdew 2,462]

On 7/22/2016 at 4:04 AM, GoldFever said:

If I sleep in a cedar bed do I live longer?

 

No but once you die your body decays slower  

[rapidron 142]

Thanks for the information.  I always believed the container in a container theory.  Now I know it's true.  Again thanks for the effort.

[Talohan 129]

heh and now it'll get nerfed as said before. Can't have an alternative to high costing magical chest or bags of keeping. lol But did a few test myself with some meals and it actually does prolong them for quite awhile. Placed 6 meals is in a small cedar barrel inside a large one on Sunday and they are just now taking some light decay.

[Cecci 1,609]

And besides all the above stated, cedar also keeps moth away! (from those armour stands)

[MrCoolMan 261]

One thing is have u tested use a dredge i always used dredges for slow decays on dyes, same on meals etc

seems that they have a really slow decay rate aswell, but good work on testing cedar decay rate =)

[TeeeBOMB 668]

bump.. do thread need bumps at all? Well here is a bump anyways.

[JakeRivers 2,921]

LOL

 

As I said, this post lead to nesting cedar containers getting nerfed.

[FranktheTank 1,901]

I remember people always thinking I was weird for taking extra attention to the materials I used in crafting, why certain handles were necessary, certain wood types for somethings over others.

 

I knew I was not crazy.

[Ostentatio 1,970]

36 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

LOL

 

As I said, this post lead to nesting cedar containers getting nerfed.

 

I remember people yelling at me for this.

[Aeryck 862]

So did the cedar decay bonus get berfed, or just the nesting multiplier?

[Ostentatio 1,970]

3 hours ago, Aeryck said:

So did the cedar decay bonus get berfed, or just the nesting multiplier?

 

From a cursory look at the current Wurm Unlimited code, here is how it currently looks to me:

• Cedar slows down decay, but only of the item itself, not contents.
• Pottery amphoras still slow decay of contents.
• Decay slowdown bonuses still stack.
  • The only current application of this is the "slowed decay of contents" rune. So for instance, you could have a runed satchel inside a runed raft inside a runed ship, I guess. Assuming you can put the rune on all those things.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Ostentatio

[JakeRivers 2,921]

11 hours ago, Aeryck said:

So did the cedar decay bonus get berfed, or just the nesting multiplier?

 

from one extreme to the other

[Niki 2,278]

don't nerf stuff thanks

 

ondeed decay is still very high

Edited April 29, 2018 by Niki

[Delacroix 348]

On 4/27/2018 at 1:48 PM, Ostentatio said:

• Decay slowdown bonuses still stack.
  • The only current application of this is the "slowed decay of contents" rune. So for instance, you could have a runed satchel inside a runed raft inside a runed ship, I guess. Assuming you can put the rune on all those things.

 

inb4 nerf

[TeeeBOMB 668]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 1:48 PM, Ostentatio said:

Cedar slows down decay, but only of the item itself, not contents.

 

OMG! I hate that they do this. They read this post all the frick'n work Ostentatio put into this thread and was kind enough to notify the community... so they (WURM) decides … oh lets fix this bug w/o telling any FRICK'n one. Let's remove this documented wurm feature, not tell anyone.. that'll be great for public relations.

 

This sort of thing really torques my gourd.

 

TeeeBOMB

 

#harrassthosethatdiscoverandpostWurmfeatures

Edited May 18, 2018 by TeeeBOMB
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