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Budda

Public PvP Changes Testing Feedback

60 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Budda said:

Blocking is still possible. Archery does a roll to hit, which you passed, then if the defender is facing the correct direction they get a roll to block. I've tweaked the difficulty of the defenders roll to be harder than it was, since before it was apparently working out to be a 99% block rate.

 

See my post above that I just edited

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4 hours ago, Budda said:

That should only come up if you're attacking your own village from what I can see. Doesn't look like it is blocked when trying to target guards in other villages.

 

I was using an account in a separate village to raid another accounts deed.  I was unable to attack his templar.  You should also be able to attack your own templar now that you mention it, as that was possible in the past and was how "Kill x spirit templar" missions are completed, or saving your villagemate who accidentally got KOS'ed is done. 

Edited by Alexgopen

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50 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

 

I was using an account in a separate village to raid another accounts deed.  I was unable to attack his templar.  You should also be able to attack your own templar now that you mention it, as that was possible in the past and was how "Kill x spirit templar" missions are completed, or saving your villagemate who accidentally got KOS'ed is done. 

 

Was the exact message the one you pasted earlier, "You will not target"...? That message can only come from attacking guards on your own deed.

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On 8/27/2016 at 2:44 AM, Budda said:

 

Was the exact message the one you pasted earlier, "You will not target"...? That message can only come from attacking guards on your own deed.

 

Yes i received that message on an account in the village Grieferville trying to raid Victimland. 

 

As of today it's letting me target other village templars, but you should still be able to target and kill your own templar since it's your own deed anyways. 

 

The issue of templars not aggroing for unlawful actions is still present though, and it wont even let you attempt to do unlawful actions.  For example i put an account on a same kingdom deed I try to raid and attempt to dig and I get this message:

[Lawful on] (cant dig)

[19:20:35] That would be illegal here. You can check the settlement token for the local laws.

[19:20:35] You will no longer care about local laws.

[Lawful off] (still cant dig)

[19:20:36] You start to dig.

[19:20:36] The guards kindly inform you that you are not allowed to do that here.

[19:20:36] A guard has noted you and stops you with a warning.

 

It doesn't let you complete the digging action and the templar doesnt come after you, and if the templar is deep inside the deed then you cant get to it to kill it in order to break the law anyways.  Unlawful should let you break the law but aggro the templar if you fail the stealing skillcheck. 

 

The way it currently is, it's impossible to break the law unless you can somehow get deep into the deed to find and kill the templar, because the templar wont come to you on its own, but good luck getting deep into the deed without breaking any laws. 

Edited by Alexgopen

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Test server updated.

 

Fixed Web Armour not ticking down or removing.

Fixed max range for building/continuing buildings and fences to 2 tiles.

Fixed equip timers not working correctly.

 

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Armor timers still don't feel right in game - more of a annoyance than a cool combat feature - taking armor off/putting back the same armor shouldnt activate a timer, if you want to keep a timer for CHANGING armor types then i'd settle with this suggestion as a balance

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Damn I loved to switch between cloth and plate during pvp :(

 

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Posted (edited)

On 8/7/2016 at 1:31 PM, Alexgopen said:

90 all my skills, 90ql longsword, fighting a spider

 

Testing Bloodscion:

 

[13:18:34] You try a Bloodscion.

[13:18:34] Damage=2741.1898803710938*0.7=1918.8328835822358 crit=false

[13:18:34] You lunge and cut a venerable hardened huge spider pretty hard in the legs and irritate it.

[13:18:34] Damage=1370.5949401855469*0.7=959.4164417911179 crit=false

[13:18:34] You lunge and cut a venerable hardened huge spider lightly in the left leg and slap it.

[13:18:34] Damage=1370.5949401855469*0.7=959.4164417911179 crit=false

[13:18:34] You lunge and cut a venerable hardened huge spider lightly in the right leg and slap it.

 

irritate slap slap for -15k stamina

 

not worth using anymore

 

 

Here's a punch with no weapon for comparison

 

[13:23:57] Damage=1942.7059645797801*0.7=1359.8941520469864 crit=false

[13:23:57] You hit an aged hardened huge spider lightly in the left leg and irritate it.

 

How about a Raktaktak:

 

[13:27:04] You try a Raktaktak.

[13:27:04] An old hardened huge spider takes no real damage from the hit to the left foreleg.

[13:27:04] Damage=800.0*0.7=559.9999904632568 crit=false

[13:27:04] You assault an old hardened huge spider very lightly in the chest and slap it.

[13:27:04] An old hardened huge spider takes no real damage from the hit to the right foreleg.

[13:27:04] An old hardened huge spider loses concentration.

 

not worth using either, cant even damage a spider on all the hits after multiple tries, and costs lots of stamina

 

 

Now for a regular swing of my sword:

[13:29:19] Damage=20680.839188218288*0.7=14476.587185217986 crit=false

[13:29:19] You cut a venerable hardened huge spider deadly hard in the stomach and damage it.

 

deadly and damage as expected

 

 

 

Special moves don't do any considerable damage now, often less than even weaponless punching. 

 

On 8/26/2016 at 10:00 AM, Budda said:

Changes as at 26/08:

  • Tweaked special move damage higher (2.5x higher than what it was)

 

 

Testing special moves again. 90 all skills, 90ql longsword, fighting a unicorn

 

If it helps you, ingame wound value is always the damage/655.35, because max short is everything's max health and the ingame wound damage is represented as a percent of that.

 

 

Heres a weaponless punch first

[17:09:33] Damage=1638.266809199845*0.7=1146.7867469102293 crit=false

[17:09:33] You hit a venerable unicorn lightly in the calf of the right foreleg and irritate it.

 

Total damage: 1146

Total Ingame Wound: 1.75

 

 

Now a Raktaktak

[17:11:39] You try a Raktaktak.

[17:11:39] Damage=2750.053596496582*0.7=1925.0374847644139 crit=false

[17:11:39] You assault a venerable unicorn pretty hard in the left foreleg and irritate it.

[17:11:39] Damage=3666.7381286621094*0.7=2566.716646352552 crit=false

[17:11:39] You assault a venerable unicorn hard in the chest and hurt it.

[17:11:39] Damage=2750.053596496582*0.7=1925.0374847644139 crit=false

[17:11:39] You assault a venerable unicorn pretty hard in the right foreleg and irritate it.

 

Total damage: 6416

Total Ingame Wound: 9.79

 

 

And a regular swing

[17:11:33] Damage=24814.288239349527*0.7=17370.0014717353 crit=false

[17:11:33] You cut a venerable unicorn deadly hard in the right shoulder and damage it.

 

Total damage: 17370

Total Ingame Wound: 26.50

 

 

Summary:

Special moves are still too weak and costly to warrant using over a regular swing. 

 

For a special move to be worth using, it needs to at least deal damage on par with what your regular swing would do.  Otherwise you are waiting out a special move timer and costing yourself the huge stamina cost that special moves have, just to deal far less damage than you would've for merely waiting 4 seconds to get your next swing in.

 

If the stamina cost of a special move is higher than the stamina cost of a swing (this is always the case), then it should at least make up for that by doing more damage than the swing in an equal or lesser amount of time.

Otherwise, you will be able to deal more damage faster with regular swings, as well as preserve your stamina for longer with regular swings.

 

DPS per Stamina as a measure of an attack's combat effectiveness

 

Combat effectiveness of attacks is measured by its damage, its dps, its time cost, and its stamina cost.  All of that boils down to the formula I've stated below.  If you want special moves to at least be equal to regular swings, then implement and enforce that formula, otherwise special moves in their current state will remain inferior. 

 

If special moves are to be equally as effective as swings, then it should be made so:  (specialMoveDamage/specialMoveTimer)/specialMoveStamina = (swingDamage/swingTimer)/swingStamina

  • If you want the special move to have greater dps than the swing, then you also increase its stamina cost to maintain equilibrium.
  • If you want the special move to deal more damage, then you either increase the timer or increase the stamina cost to maintain equilibrium.
  • If you want the special move to cost less stamina, then you either decrease the damage or increase the timer to maintain equilibrium. 

 

Right now, this equation is not balanced.  The left side special move value is far lesser than the right side regular swing value.  Regular swings are currently far more combat effective than special moves.

 

There is no reason to use a special move when it has a higher stamina cost, longer wait timer, and deals less damage than a regular swing.

Edited by Alexgopen
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Thanks for the feedback, but looking through the code I don't think making them as effective as normal swings is a good idea. Considering these special moves occur outside of normal swings, basically bypass normal defenses of normal swings and only having one test value from Raktaktak above, it doesn't really paint the full picture. I'm open to upping the damage from them, or looking at all of the stamina costs to lower them, but definitely not as much as you're hoping for in your post above.

 

For damage specifically, ignoring the other effects of special moves, damage is not always going to be the same - so taking the values from a single use of Raktaktak above isn't really indicative of anything - you may have just got a bad roll on that attack (calcing it out, it looks like you rolled about ~36). Based on the spreadsheets I used when I went through all of this, Raktaktak's max damage is 25000 before armour, which is already above your normal attack above at 24000. That's a possible 25k that ignores normal blocking from the defender, and is generally a guaranteed hit if you pass your attack check.

 

The stamina cost might be high, but that move also gives a CR penalty to the defender as well, which is calculated into the overall power I used to balance against other moves - as well as the stamina cost being reduced as per all other stamina usage by your Body Stam skill and any other bonuses to stam use reduction - making it too low would mean those with high stam use reduction would be able to do these moves over and over with no end.

 

 

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Let alone the ones that allow stunning or draining stamina.

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