Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) First part, I would like to see a single wiki page with a list of suggestions that have high interest and high positive requests, maybe a rough count of "+1" or "Likes". For example, the following have been up and down the list and re-requested and some have the "+1 as always"... Remove Priest Nerfs Digging same as mining Saddle Bags Wall types Ceilings Roof types Floor types Taxidermy Animal crating musical instruments extended animal riding animal equipment (other than saddle bags) better ramps (for indoor moving carts/animals up/down) different types of bulk/large storage (liquid bsb, today toolbox or parts bsb) animal cages (like actual bird/pheasant in the "bird cage") Why? Because there are some really great ideas. As a developer i know having a simple list of stories (one-line descriptions) helps to keep them in mind. Instead of Tich or Budda reading all the posts they could go to a single page and "hey that one is easy to add to this development, let me see if (whoever approves dev) agrees" Maybe they are keeping an internal list idk, but adding to a single place also lets people expand on ideas here and maybe they can be added to the wiki by someone (Retro? since he appears to be able to take the heat quite well and has been sort of doing this anyway, i think), Ground rules would be we all sort of agree to not pester devs if something is on the list, which would be a lot easier with the second part. Second part, only after the first part and no pressure....if CC has the confidence (and i hope they do) add a column with some noncommittal acknowledgement. I do not care personally if it is "NGH" (Not gonna happen), or something like "Consideration" "Researching" "Proofing" or "Planned for Future" "Approval Pending"., i.e. saying they are thinking about it or trying to fit in to the plan or deciding if it is appropriate. The first part would help the community feel heard and the second part would help even more by making us feel like we contributed something of value even if ultimately the devs do not think it will work or cannot be done and would go a long ways to avoiding the slowly spreading poison in suggestion forum as lots of good ideas from new players, old players, GMs, CAs, Mods, and just players seem to get ignored and not even considered. I can give examples where this seemed to be the case, but i do not think that would be productive. Edited July 6, 2016 by ClericGunem 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) I agree with most of that, but I feel like some perspective is in order here. It wasn't too long ago that even bugfixes were not responded to in the way they are now, and Code Club has been pretty good about ramping up meaningful communication with the fanbase. Not that it's perfect, and I think they still should continue to move forward in that direction, but it's a lot better than it used to be. I give Retrograde and Alectrys a lot of credit here. The major hurdle I can see to this is that there are plenty of reasons why a developer might not respond to a suggestion. Some examples: Their response to it, or decision regarding it, would be somehow related to an upcoming change that they aren't yet prepared to announce, either due to those planned changes not being set in stone, or because they have some other reason not to announce it just yet. Giving a response creates expectations which may not be carried out. If a suggestion gets listed as "not gonna happen", there's still the possibility that they'll change their minds at some point, either due to changes in design philosophy or because technical limitations have changed. This makes them look unpredictable or unprofessional, and gives less weight to their responses in the future. There's a reason Notch's "dragons will never be added to Wurm" quote is still in the splashscreen quotes list. Features can get delayed, sometimes for a very long time. A suggestion being "in progress" or "being considered" for two years doesn't look good, sort of like how bridges being implemented "soon" became a running joke in the Wurm community right up until their release. People blow things out of proportion beyond what expectations are even reasonable. It's not hard to imagine people seeing "under consideration" and believing that the suggestion will, in fact, be implemented, and spreading that information around. I like the idea of Code Club responding to suggestions more and paying more attention to them, which I feel they are doing, but there's only so much you can expect on that front. Obviously, someone like @Keenan would be able to speak with much more knowledge and authority on this matter than I possibly could. Putting common suggestions on the wiki sounds like a good idea to me, both for the reasons you mention and because it would be an easy place to point new players when they want to make or view suggestions, especially since many people suggest similar things. I'll link The Powers That Be to this post and see what they think of it. There is, of course, the obvious problem of who decides which suggestions are "common" or "popular", and based on what metric. Edited July 6, 2016 by Ostentatio 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 I feel like a stickied post at the top of the Suggestions & Ideas section would be a better place for it, rather than on the Wiki. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 I thought of assembling a similar list a while back with links to all the most commented suggestions. There are so many though... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Firestarter said: I feel like a stickied post at the top of the Suggestions & Ideas section would be a better place for it, rather than on the Wiki. I thought of that, but then several things came to mind that made it cumbersome. The main part is, would have to be locked, and since it is a bit closer to the forum it would have less of a realistic "filter". There are good ideas, but then there are very good ideas or very much supported ideas, having to go though one more human to get to the wiki sort of double validates it as a real idea, not just condensing of interesting/ok ideas. The concept being "here is what people want or have been asking for" in shorter list with on those things that are *really* asked for or *really* good, and small and concise enough that devs would be able to glance at them. I would even limit to top 10 or top 20 so that never is more than a single screen. But a sticky post (locked, with maybe dev comments only) is better than what we have now and would still help stop the spread of apathy i find in some posts like "good idea, good luck getting dev to read it" I know they read the suggestions as I hovered over Tich's name once on the forum and he was in suggestions, and then saw Budda on once and hovered over and saw him in suggestions too, and 2 for 2 and having seen budda comment i am going to presume high likelihood they visit suggestions board. 56 minutes ago, Ostentatio said: a suggestion gets listed as "not gonna happen", there's still the possibility that they'll change their minds at some point, either due to changes in design philosophy or because technical limitations have changed I agree, really trying to get point across that any response is really acceptable. I would expect that things that devs feel are never going to be done would be labeled as "under discussion" or "consideration" (as i have done that to requests on a feature request board in the past) and defined as "possible implementation in the future, but not fitting in current or projected plans" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Firestarter said: I feel like a stickied post at the top of the Suggestions & Ideas section would be a better place for it, rather than on the Wiki. Firestarter would be correct. The wiki, a Code Club owned resource given to players to use, is for game mechanics; not suggestions to add game mechanics. Therefore, a better place for this type of list would be stickied to the top of the Suggestiongs & Ideas board. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 remove priest restrictions all together, that one thing would make wurm online like 100x funner to play 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 21 minutes ago, Aum said: remove priest restrictions all together, that one thing would make wurm online like 100x funner to play I have to agree with Aum 100,000 times over again. I don't know how many times this has been suggested. I think it is the one thing that makes WU superior, at least in my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zachariah said: Firestarter would be correct. The wiki, a Code Club owned resource given to players to use, is for game mechanics; not suggestions to add game mechanics. Therefore, a better place for this type of list would be stickied to the top of the Suggestiongs & Ideas board. A Sticky is not the best way, but if it is the only way it will have to do. The few times i have seen sticky threads used for suggestions they turn in to garbage or points of contention because there is no separation of concerns and the people forced to maintain it do not care so the quality of the suggestions becomes whatever they feel like putting in there, but if wiki can not in any way be extended by a single page for other player stuff like interesting and well liked suggestions, then maybe the main site, baring that a sticky would be better than nothing, but i would hope that someone who cares is the owner. No matter what something should be added, the last update touched on some suggestions (overlooking at least one pretty much promised change again, which was dirt dropping on ground like mining), which did lighten the over all mode of the posts/responses i think, so doing something now while it is lighter mood would be good time, rather than waiting for the frustrated undertone to start creeping into responses again. And since i do not seem to be getting part of the point across. Dirt dropping like mining suggested a long time ago, WU it was proven could be done in hours (minutes when you know what needs to be done), was specifically mentioned in official news it was on the way, annnnnnnnnnd nothing. If it where on a list we would at least know it was not forgotten and yes we would expect someone to explain or at least help us understand why something so simple and so desired and already promised...was not in the game 7 calendar months and 2 days later Just saying, i think most people stop posting good suggestions as these types of forums develop too much of an undertone of apathy and frustration, or worse like some games, become a cesspool before being severely moderated Edited July 6, 2016 by ClericGunem Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 29 minutes ago, Aum said: remove priest restrictions all together, that one thing would make wurm online like 100x funner to play Well the thread drops two/three pages before one of us once again bumps it (on page 2 right now, i was last to bump it), i mean it only has, what, 14 pages and vast number of +1/likes and no one from CC can take 5-10 secs to comment or acknowledge or say it is not going to happen because .... It should certainly be on "the List" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 I am not sure that I think a sticky list is the best way either. I think that at least from time to time the suggestions are looked at. It would be nice if someone(a dev) would comment and say I'm sorry this can't happen or we will look at this. Perhaps a small explanation would be nice. But this is part of the problem here. Communication sucks. Noone says anything and then people wonder why things get so blown out of proportion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 Maybe make it something like Tibia's proposal board? The way it works is people post their ideas etc and if it gets a lot of support and is approved by a CM it is added to a "Forwarded Proposals" thread and the idea thread gets a golden border. The forwarded proposals thread lets people know of proposals that have potential to be implemented to the game and of previous ones that have been implemented already. Pic of what the old tibia forwarded proposals thread looked like Spoiler Something like this would be nice, especially the small status next to the suggestions that lets you know if the devs have seen / discussed / rejected / implemented the suggestion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 Let me divide my realms here. Wurmpedia Manager's Response: The Wurmpedia is for what is, and not what will be, should be, could be, or might be. Thus a suggestions page on the Wurmpedia would be out of the scope of the site. It can create confusion by giving people the impression that a highly popular suggestion is soon to be implemented, if not already so. That said, you are free to use your own user page for whatever you'd like, but anything that may appear to be official will be removed on the grounds of avoiding confusion. Developer's Response: I completely understand the desire to up vote and keep suggestions pinned for us to see. For the most part, we see, hear, in some other way know about all of them. Why do developers not reply to suggestions? History has shown that any developer response is often taken as fact. Even if it's one of us just casually commenting our thoughts on the matter. If someone with a Dev tag says it's complicated or difficult, people assume we've shot it down already. If someone said it should be easy, then it's assumed it'll be in the next patch. It's best that we not reply unless we absolutely need to, as to not give the community the wrong impression. Why haven't they implemented XYZ suggestion? It's a no brainer! The devs are stupid! There are many reasons something hasn't been implemented. It could be that it closely relates to something that we're planning a larger focus on, or that we've taken a look and found that what appeared to be a simple quality of life improvement is actually tied to many systems and would take considerable time to complete. When we do see a suggestion that we can implement quickly, we often do. We also have to consider the balance of the game in mind when we look at things, as some suggestions may appear innocent on the surface, but they end up affecting quite a bit more the further down the rabbit hole you go. @Retrogradeis actually very, very good at bringing new suggestions to us in our weekly emails. So your voices are being heard, even if we're not responding to them all. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 You forgot your "Player's Response" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Hordern said: You forgot your "Player's Response" Oh, I did put "The devs are stupid!" in there somewhere. Player's response: PUT IN ALL THE THINGS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 6, 2016 5 minutes ago, Keenan said: Oh, I did put "The devs are stupid!" in there somewhere. Player's response: PUT IN ALL THE THINGS. You're forgetting "EPIC WAS NEVER CONSULTED ON THIS". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 7, 2016 4 hours ago, Ostentatio said: You're forgetting "EPIC WAS NEVER CONSULTED ON THIS". Cant consult what is dead... Kidding aside, here's the old Common Suggestions wiki page, which use to be stickied on the past forums. http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Feature_Wishlist Granted it never had a ranking system for most popular. Kind of had this for that: https://wurmonline.uservoice.com/forums/12046-wurmonline-client Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, Karrde said: Cant consult what is dead... Kidding aside, here's the old Common Suggestions wiki page, which use to be stickied on the past forums. http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Feature_Wishlist I *knew* i had seen that, but i did not find after a couple searches and thought i imagined it (since it is the logical thing to do) or it was removed. Probably be removed now though..... Before it is deleted....i see a lot of items that are regularly re-requested ---------------- http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Feature_Wishlist Spoiler The feature wishlist will attempt to document Wurm features and gameplay improvements which are frequently suggested by players in order to avoid duplication of suggestions and to help the developers find it easier to select the best ideas and somedayimplement them into the game. Please discuss and reach a community consensus on the forum or IRC channel before adding items. This is not a personal wishlist; it should represent the playerbase as a whole. A good way to make requests visible to the developers is to use UserVoice and vote on the features you want. Feel free to add any suggestions that has not yet been added so they can be voted upon. [[1]] Contents [hide] 1 Gameplay 1.1 NPC 1.2 Ships 2 Interface 2.1 Drag-and-drop items 2.2 Inventory/container and skill lists 3 Player character 4 Objects 4.1 Buildings 4.2 Alchemy 4.3 Food & drink 4.4 Glass, glass blowing, sand uses 4.5 Snow, puddles, and ice 4.6 Miscellaneous 5 Effects 5.1 Particles 5.2 Sounds 5.3 Textures 6 Wishes Fulfilled 7 See also 8 External links Gameplay Armor: Lighter metal alloy, perhaps through enchantment Boat/ship writ (1) Collision detection Flammable objects: Beyond simply burning most wood objects (except newbie wood shields which should also be burnable) in fire containers (campfire, forge, oven, etc), trees and other vegetation should be flammable to a degree (like if "old and shrivelled"), wood structures, Catapults, boats, etc. Horse Management: gelding, rustling (changing brands), etc Stackable objects: For example, placing small objects on top of tables, such as candelabras, similar to Morrowind Animal Armor: Something larger for Champ-sized. Such for dragons as well; though, perhaps too overpowering. Materials can range from iron to red dragon scale. Game Music: A setting to adjust sound/music frequency. Breedable/Hatching Flying Creatures: courier birds for ingame mailsystem (coupled with paper), birds of prey as hunting aids Taxidermy to preserve hunting and fishing catches. Perhaps even human trophies for BL. Some means of disassembling or salvaging complex items. Better skill for better ql, more parts, less dmg, etc. Possible use for old pliers tool. NPC More player-placeable NPCs: bartenders, etc Older players able to pay the starter deed bartenders for food 'n drink. Players able to set their merchants to trade for desired goods. Ships Ship-mounted weapons, grappling, boarding, etc. Equipping ships with components: forges, ovens, beds, etc. The larger the ship, the more to be added. Some means of loading/offloading animals. More types of ship, including a Large Sailing Boat, Barge and Carrack (small but faster cog). Interface Dump carts: All the items/dirt/shards/ore/etc in a cart can be dumped into a pile instantly to reduce load/unload times "Dig to cart" option: Drop dug resources directly into a cart for loading ease Friends list window (use either F4 or /friends to show it): Shows all friends regardless if online (which can be bold), the time/date that they last logged off, and ignore list management HTML/MediaWiki syntax support: Clickable links and "What's this?" info is more useful Split stacks: More info needed Tooltips (when hovering mouse over things) should not go off-screen but should instead shift left Drag-and-drop items Containers: Directly from one container/pile to another without having to move them in and out of the player's inventory Combine: Drag one item (dirt, rock shards, ore, etc) on top of another to combine it Inventory/container and skill lists Heat indicating colours for items.(1) Multiple item selection/rename: multiple items can be selected sequentially (shift-click) or non-sequentially (ctrl-click) and moved as a group (and optionally renamed). (1) Resizeable columns (1). Tooltip only shows when text is cut off. Saddlebags for horses. They can be accessed via rightclick horse -> open. Maybe also two versions of saddlebags, where the horse still can be ridden while wearing the smaller one. Equipping would work like with saddles and horse shoes. Creation of a saddlebag would be similar to a backpack. Player character Animations: Holding torch, lantern, candle, pumpkin, and other light sources Customization: Clothing: Dyeable, shows on player character model. At least be able to choose from different preconfigured clothing instead of all kingdom players of the same gender looking exactly the same. (1) Clothing 'n Armour displayable on stands or racks. Fire damage Sounds: Wurm is missing a lot of sounds and/or the sounds are bugged Collision: bump/hit tree, pass through bush Female emotes so they don't sound like male characters Footsteps: Fix them so they don't repeat so much and correctly set the volume level when other players are walking towards and away from the player Armor rustle: With metal armor on, footstep sound should also be accompanied by an armor rustle sound. Objects Buildings Windmill: Can only be built where there is a 10x10 clear tile space. Used to grind flour or saw wood, either depending on which last items you used, or selectable via a menu. Output is effected by the ambient weather conditions - Wurm has great a weather/wind simulation that should be used for more than just 'eye-candy'. Warehouse: Used to store building materials (i.e. lumber, clay, metal lumps...). Reduces decay depending on the quality of the building. Temple: Decorative, possibly increased altar radius Cave Structures: Underground doors/gates, fences, farms?, and buildings Portcullis: similar to a Wooden palisade gate Alchemy Poison: Possible ingredients can include belladonna, oleander, and red mushrooms. Applicable to weapons, arrows, food, etc. Food & drink Ale/beer/wine: Could be made from a variety of already in-game resources like wheat, barley, and grapes and could contain some small physical effects on the player if consumed en mass, such as blurriness, drunkeness (can't walk straight, fall down, more chance of failure when making/improving, etc) Apple sauce Batter: Flour + milk + egg, used in fried food (see below), pancakes, waffles, French toast (with bread), plus fruit, etc Blackberry bush: Could produce berries that could be picked by hand and used for eating and cooking. Bread crumbs: Crush bread for salad (croutons), tame birds with, etc Butter/lard: Animal fat + dough Corn flour: Corn on grind stone French fries: Cut a potato and put in a frying pan (salt optional) Fried food: Frying pan + olive oil (1) Lettuce: For salads, sandwiches, etc Omelete: Egg + cheese + milk + tomato (optional) + bread (to make a sandwich) Pies: Dough + fruit, pumpkin, etc (1, 2) Pizza: Dough + cheese + tomato + meat (optional) Potato chips: Cut a potato and put in a frying pan (salt optional) Sandwich: More ingredients and less decay! Salad: Lettuce, tomato, bread crumbs Tomato: For use in pizza, tortillas, tacos (with meat and cheese), sandwiches, omletes, etc Tortilla or some form of flatbread: Baked corn dough (see corn flour above) or wheat dough Glass, glass blowing, sand uses Glass is made in real life using sand, limestone, soda ash, and potash. For the sake of fun over realism, only sand could be used. Leaded glass was also common in medieval times, so another better use for lead already in Wurm. Sand would be collected by digging on sand tiles and placed into a fire for melting into glass lumps. Glass blowing skill: To begin this skill you would need to create a glass blowing pipe from iron (2kg lump on a large anvil), then use the glass lumps on the glass blowing pipe and "Create > Glass items" in the menu. Example glass items: Vials for potions, dye, etc, bottles for liquid storage, lenses for binoculars & telescopes (including being able to make a spyglass), window panes, etc Snow, puddles, and ice In the unstable client, the grass tile texture is snow but the tile still acts like grass. Snow tile: A specific "snow tile" or just a texture change on existing tiles (or perhaps requiring new tiles for all terrain types: "grass (snow)", "dirt (snow)", etc). Can be dug up to get snow which will remove the snow and revert the tile to whatever it was before snow "fell" on it. Snow can be used to preserve food when added to a container with food in it. Snow would decay slower in colder climates (like when it snows and if snow is already on the ground) but decay faster in hotter climates, if near fire (say within 1 tile), and if the snow is stored in a building (which is usually warmer than outside). However, the combined reduced decay of the snow outside with food in a container outside should still overall reduce the food's decay than even if inside without snow. Ice tile: A water tile that freezes over after enough snow falls on it (and the ambient temperature decreases). Like a snow tile, an ice tile can be dug up (which reverts the ice tile back to water) for ice which is usable in the same manner as snow, except it decays slower. Puddle: Decaying (melting) snow/ice turns into (or leaves as it melts) water which can form a puddle on the ground that acts like a separate item that can only be drunk or filled from, which causes the puddle to scale down and eventually disappear, depending on how big the puddle is. Puddles can also appear after a player walks out of (or through) water. Miscellaneous Acorns, pine cones, and other seeds found around oak and pine trees, respectively. Acorns and pine cones could be planted to grow their respective trees, too. Bridges: Bridges will not be added very soon, this is long-term. Clothing: See Player character section Hot-air balloons: Made out of cloth sheets and/or wemp fiber. Wemp fiber could also (or only) be used to make the basket (which could be a container). Then an "air heater" could be created out of iron that would act like a fire container to heat the air in order to lift the balloon (and cook/forge too). Cloth sheets and wemp fiber can be used to improve the boat, as needed. The higher the balloon's quality, the higher/farther it can fly (and the longer it can burn fuel like other fire containers). Optional mooring rope plus sandin a satchel or backpack for sandbags. Books (See Paper above): More resources required including leather, and more text allowed. Lockable. Perhaps even some kind of early skill gain bonus from books written by masters of various crafts. Rolling pin: For making dough Soap: Made from animal fat + lye + optional fragance from a camellia, lavender, or rose bush (and/or some herbs). Soap could be used to clean cooking dishes (pottery bowl, frying pan, sauce pan, cauldron), jars, barrels, etc in order to put a new liquid/food in them (like putting stew/gulasch in a jar after it's just had dye in it). Soap could also be used to clean the player (and animals) since, apparently, Wurmians never seem to get dirty--ever. Bathing with soap could decrease the likelihood of catching a disease. Wooden spoon: For stirring food when cooking to increase its quality. Clay Vase / Pottery Vase:created just like other clay/pottery items. Once the vase is created, activate a flower and right-click a vase, create > decorations > Flower Vase. Once created, activate the flower vase, and right click a table, bench, etc, and select Place. The result would be a nice decoration for homes, outdoors, cemetaries etc. Being able to place items on top of tables. Feeding trough for animals, instead of dropping food on the floor. Effects Fading/gradual tile changes: When packing dirt, the tile should gradually fade from the current tile to packed dirt. When foraging/botanizing a snow tile, the tile should gradually fade from snow to grass (since doing all that rummaging will disrupt the snow--perhaps leaving a partially snow-grass tile). Footprints (including away from): Clay, dirt, sand, snow, tar Lighting: Forge light source should be higher so it shines on forging surface/polygons. Rain: Shouldn't happen if barely any clouds in the sky; surface splash Shadows: Should cover objects/players Snow, puddles, and ice: See above Water ripples Wind: Crops should sway from the bottom-up, not top-down. Particles Butchering: Blood splatter, fat/fur/skin fragments Carving: Wood chips Drinking: Liquid drops/splash Fire/flames: Candle, lantern, lamp, pumpkin (carved), torch, etc Smithing: Sparks, Water hissing, hot metal fragments Filing: Wood dust Mining: Dirt dust, ore/rock fragments, and occasional sparks from pickaxe impact Polishing: Wood dust Sowing seed Steam: Cooking food, hot items in water, tempering Water: Rowing oar splash, mist, player body/footstep splash Sounds Weather: Rain (dampened when inside structures but louder on roof), thunder (happens very rarely now), wind Textures Wood: Every wood item's texture should reflect its wood type. So, pine is lighter and smoother-grained than oak (see Wikipedia:Wood#Different woods). (added for many wooden objects) Wishes Fulfilled Features that were on this wishlist and then were added to the game. Fire crackling: Fire containers (campfire, forge, oven), lamp, lantern, pumpkin (carved), torch, etc Renaming items: Text cursor focus should automatically go to rename text input field instead of having to click it manually. Also, hitting the "enter" key should "send" the info--in all dialogs (manage, etc). (done as of unstable client 2.6.8-1890) Wounds: very light, light, medium, bad, severe (added in test client 2.6.8-1799) Granary: Used to store all food types. Reduces decay a great amount. --->Food storage bin Mounts Large carts Ships Enabling passengers to do actions not currently possible on moving ships/vehicles: Crafting and such. (Added February 2011) Toolbelts Horse Management: branding (Added December 2010) Horse Barding added Seasons were added Custom characters added Reed, Reed Pens, Press and Papyrus for writing High Iron Fence Gate added Edited July 7, 2016 by ClericGunem Share this post Link to post Share on other sites