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Pashka

Fountain pan Replacements

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10 minutes ago, Makarus said:

Therefore my position remains: enhanced storage is benificial to gameplay for gameplay reasons. Most games have upgradable storage. As you progress so does your ability to store.

I couldn't agree more. I just don't think that the enhanced storage should come from an old exploit. Let it be something that is achieveable to all, without an exploit, and isnt so incredibly unbalanced.

 

10 minutes ago, Makarus said:

I've got a small WU thing going and the thought has occured to me, how to obtain fountain pans with my own WU server?

You can't, it was an exploit.

 

The closest thing is the bag of holding spell, which I think would be a good answer to all of this, something that increases storage space depending on cast power (without it being so ridiculous, on Ages of Urath a 100 cast gives a bsb over 20 times the original storage space)

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The part of the code that made it possible to create fountain-pans was the fact that it was possible to finish an item inside another item, so as long as you can remove that check you should be good to go.

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2 hours ago, geode said:

 

Jealousy? Hardly. I have enough money to purchase a Fountain Pan, got enough money to pay for several. Would make things easier... but that for me has never been the point.

 

Wurm is built with Encumbrance as a major game system, and any game with an encumbrance system definitely isn't designed to be convenient or easy. Encumbrance sets limits to how much a character can carry, how fast thy can walk with what they have, and other factors of gameplay. We are SUPPOSED to be limited in how much we carry. We are SUPPOSED to be limited in how much we can store and store without decay. We are SUPPOSED to walk slowly up a hill if we are carrying too much and We are SUPPOSED to get eaten by that spider if we tried to haul everything at one time. These parameters are a part of game design for Wurm and encumbrance affects many thing by design. It's how Rolf wanted Wurm to play out. Apparently some of you don't know what an encumbrance system is or why it's a part of some game's design or where it comes from or why Rolf and Notch included it with Wurm. You will have to ask them why since they can answer your questions better than I can, but I for one accept the game as it's designed as I accept other games and how they are designed... rather than look for workarounds and cheats to bypass how the game is suppose to play out. Fountain Pans don't only flip a big fat middle finger at the Item Inventory system in the game, it also flips that bird at the Encumbrance system as well. My objections to these things have always been based on Fountain Pans being an item that where devised by Players to circumvent game design with no regard or respect for that design, nor with any regard of the consequences long term to the game and other Players by their use.

 

Wurm is a game where some of what we can do we have to discover, but come on already... some things you just know are "too good to be true" and with how Wurm is designed at a base level Fountain Pans clearly don't fit in the system. Discovering they could be made I don't see as a bad thing, making them and encouraging others to do so as well I do see an inappropriate for the game.


You want to use these things? That's up to you, and it's on you as well. I know better than to use these things no matter how convenient they are in day to day gameplay. I also won't spend money on one of these things either. If Rolf designs something like a Fountain and makes it officially available ingame then and on then will my opinion change about them.

Actually, the decay system wasn't put in place to screw individuals, but to keep the abandoned items out of the game. So as the number of fountain pans is limited(and actually declining effectively, as people quit and some just keep stuck in the hands of inactive people), it doesn't have a big effect on whole system. If devs one day implemented an item, which everyone could make and that has same effect as fountain pans, then it would be out of control.. Currently the situation is contained. There is finite number of fountain pans in game(I also am certain, that total number and actively used number of fountain pans is very different), which hold finite number of items. We can theorycraft about different scenarios, but that has been so for years now, highly unlikely it will change.

 

All in all, I don't disagree, that they are bugged items.. Yes, they were created by a bug. But they should've been removed shortly after the bug was fixed. Currently removing them creates bigger problem than it solves. Let's face it, before the mamadarkness' topic about removal of them, they never were an issue.. We had long campaigns about traders, but not about fountain pans. The number of items in game is not an issue, that has been stable for long time, currently it shows even downwards trend. So only thing, that here is being "fixed", is to try to please people, who don't have it, don't wanna buy it, but don't want anyone to have it either.

 

Now let's think about whom it is affecting the most, I think I am not wrong, when I say, that owners of fountain pans are long time active players, who have been supporting this game for ages. Simple logic here.. don't bite the hand, which feeds you.

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One problematical issue I see with the removal of Fountain Pans (and the other bugged multi containers) is that you diminish player trust that items they purchase within the game for what equates to RL funds may at some future point be removed. Then of course this creates discontent which they will naturally speak of to others.

 

A bad decision to remove them at this point because of this not only loss of their function but the RL money loss, whether that be from selling them to others or having paid funds for them at some point, if not around when players were able to create them themselves. If not for this financial loss I don't think it would all be so much of an issue since then it would amount to just a loss of an item game function.

 

Myself I don't have any because I am much more conservative in how I spend my money in this game and their price far exceeds their benefits, as I see it. Yet my viewpoint remains as stated above concerning those who currently have them.

 

=Ayes=

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21 hours ago, SeeD said:

I couldn't agree more. I just don't think that the enhanced storage should come from an old exploit. Let it be something that is achieveable to all, without an exploit, and isnt so incredibly unbalanced.

 

You can't, it was an exploit.

 

 

The closest thing is the bag of holding spell, which I think would be a good answer to all of this, something that increases storage space depending on cast power (without it being so ridiculous, on Ages of Urath a 100 cast gives a bsb over 20 times the original storage space)

That spell sounds awesome, I won't lie.

 

Also... this is where I disagree with the fundamentals of the arguement.

I've never considered this exploitish. Even living for 5 years without one, never did I sit back and say "no fair, they shouldnt have that!" After they locked the creation. Quite the opposite, my reaction was one of dissapointment.

 

Personally i've always considered stacked containers to be a great feature for sorting and additional items within the weight (encumberance mechanic) limit.

 

Anyways. We have a lot of storage medium availible to us. What we (now) lack is the ability to roll out on excursions lasting days and sometimes weeks away from deed and decay protection, resulting in long stays at the repair bench should you carry anything more than the most base kit.

Dissapointing.

 

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Seems to me folks pushing hardest for this are the ones who snatched up dozens of these things when they were dumped on the market after the announcement.

 

Nothing will change the fact a lot of people quit over this and will not be coming back.

 

 

Edited by JakeRivers
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I'm not sure about all of the people posting.  I made the thread and I have had my pans as long as I have played almost.  This thread isn't about us being able to keep the items.  We know that fight has been lost.  But we were told we would have a replacement for the functionality of storing items with no decay.  Perhaps not to the degree we have had with them but some.  That replacement is what we need information on.  This is so we can make our plans.  This is something that will be available to each and every person.  So no reason for someone to say hey.....we don't have that.

 

Hopefully noone else will quit over this.

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Just now, Pashka said:

But we were told we would have a replacement for the functionality of storing items with no decay.

 

Out of curiosity... where? Do you have a specific quote?

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I also remember Rolf saying that they would stay in game as legacy items. And no I don't have quote saying so.

 

I've been involved with these things since the beginning. 

So many years ago in JKH when I was playing Qex I made 14 of those fountains-in-a-sauce pan so I could fill to small chests with them. At the time I didn't even think about using small magic chests. I just wanted to cram more stuff into a smaller space.

 At some point, I ended up leaving them with my old deed mates. Later, I asked them for at least one back and they gave me one. Although, the one I got didn't have Qex's signature on it so they must have gotten others. When WU came out I ended up selling that one fountain-pan along with my deed and other things.

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14 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

 

Out of curiosity... where? Do you have a specific quote?

If someone isn't recording, what you say. Does it mean you didn't say anything at all?

 

PS I don't own/haven't owned any fountain pans.

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19 hours ago, JakeRivers said:

Seems to me folks pushing hardest for this are the ones who snatched up dozens of these things when they were dumped on the market after the announcement.

 

Nothing will change the fact a lot of people quit over this and will not be coming back.

 

 

Quit? Why? They were never intended to exist and give and edge to certain people who exploited the glitch to hoarde items for what - years now? It's not like wurm market sold you an item that you paid for and you have any right to complain about.. it's a glitched item that lets you keep a ton of items for a small price, if you had it from the start made by you or gifted to you.. cool - you had the time to use it until now; or .. if you bought it.. you sure thought that it's not a legit item and it might be corrected eventually, you risked it.. and now complain about your own decision?

 

It's not my place to decide anything.. but in my opinion these items should have never lasted more than a week after they have been found to be used like that.

ZERO-decay is OP in a game where relatively everything decays sooner or later.. having a smc/lmc and a src-rift lets people hoarde a lot more than they should be able to. New patch already promises options to preserve dyes and food in containers with slowed or no-decay. Problem is the hoarding of items, not the fixing of something old that have been delayed a few times already.

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On 9/22/2016 at 11:15 PM, SeeD said:

I couldn't agree more. I just don't think that the enhanced storage should come from an old exploit. Let it be something that is achieveable to all, without an exploit, and isnt so incredibly unbalanced.

 

You can't, it was an exploit.

 

The closest thing is the bag of holding spell, which I think would be a good answer to all of this, something that increases storage space depending on cast power (without it being so ridiculous, on Ages of Urath a 100 cast gives a bsb over 20 times the original storage space)

Sure you can although it won't be something explicitly called a rift or fountain pan or whatever the name is.

 

Instead run the bulk mod. It allows you to stack things inside each other just like in Wurm. It is setup by default I believe to allow you to have a huge volume capacity inside with low numbers outside. In effect this means I can store every Wurm tool I use in an iron bowl. I can put 30+ shields in another iron bowl. Both bowls can be inside each other too.

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On 9/18/2016 at 6:09 AM, Somervyl said:

I can't see anything anywhere that promises you that fountain pans would be left in the game forever, nor promises you any kind of service or functionality from them. So no, I don't see how you are entitled to your silver back, as that is a pretty flimsy argument.I 

Firstly:  As far as I am concerned, leaving an item in game for 8 years and allowing it to be sold on these forums (hosted by CC), was enough promise (or at least obvious implied agreement) that CC condoned the items and did not say anything about them being traded for silver.  People were allowed to trade them and people bought them.  Taking them from the people who bought them, not knowing it was a glitch which would one day be "corrected", can obviously cause resentment.  

 

Secondly:  Perhaps you missed it, but I was being sarcastic. Spending real money in an online game always exposes you to the risk of losing it, the fact you are buying pixels should give you a hint that you are exchanging real currency for something non tangible.  Obviously, many people spend money in this game, and obviously, many people will lose some of it.  It is a GAME, a hobby, a time sink.  However, since someone thought I was being serious, let me point out the following:  From what I understand, when a client requests a charge back from a credit card company, the chargeback will be allowed based on the type of product/service you purchased.  If the money was spent on virtual goods, virtual content can be charged back for real money, given that the virtual content did not deliver what it promised to deliver.   

 

Lastly:  Many of my friends and I, are not elite players at all.  In fact, we are quite new to the game in the big scheme of things.  Some of the people in our friendship group bought the fountain pans, none of the people I know were around to actually make these.  We did not even play the game when they were made.  We only bought them years later because they were an item in a game we enjoyed, which could take the stuff we hate doing in this game (repairing and wondering what will poof next), out of the game.  Having a fountain pan made our enjoyment of the game much more, so were willing to spend the real life money to purchase these items.  They were not bought to "gain an advantage" like some sort of competition.  They were an obvious choice for people with limited time to spend continually repairing or storing stuff in an online game.  There was never a mention that they were a glitch, or that these items would be "corrected" some time in the future. Seriously, if it ever was mentioned, do you really think anyone would buy them?  I guess in this respect, it is similar to the recent hellhorse issue, where it was never mentioned they were not supposed to be hitched after a certain age.  Or the enchanted grass issue, where it was "corrected" to revert back to packed dirt at a faster rate, then a slower rate, then a faster rate.  Or the guard speed which were "corrected" to the point where it is easier to run away from mobs than to wait around for guards to show up to help.  Or the healing spells, which were "corrected".  And the carts now not following terrain, this was corrected also, from a previous "glitch".  

 

Obviously, a game will evolve and grow, and changes will be made.  Some changes will be just too detrimental for people to live with, and it will overshadow the enjoyment they derive by causing resentment or creating more meaningless mouse clicks instead of fun times.  After the last hellhorse "correction", at least ten premium accounts representing 5 deeds from our alliance, stopped playing Wurm Online.  Was hellhorses being hitched for a very long time, a glitch in the game? Was it OP?  I guess yes to both questions.  Did it impact players in a negative way when it was "corrected" after years of being allowed in the game?  Absolutely.  

 

I see a lot of people in this thread saying things like "why will anyone quit about the fountain pans being removed?  They had years of value so should be thankful."  From my observation, arguing about whether people will/won't or should/shoudn't quit about this issue (or any other issue), is a waste of breath.  People will quit the game over any reason they deem important enough, they don't need anyone's permission to quit.  I believe that storage and decay and anything that create more "work" and less "fun", impact people negatively, to the point where they will just log out, and not log back in.   When people get angry about decisions made by devs, it means they still care about the game.  Much more worrying would be if people stopped responding about changes to the game.

 

That being said, we are waiting for the devs to let us know what they are going to give us to replace the awesome functionality of the fountain pans. I still believe that all decay of created items on deed, should be eliminated.  Magical chests are still valuable for keeping ores or other valuables (like flowers, eggs and gifts from friends) safe, and great for travel on carts etc.  Refer back to previous posts about how no decay of created items on deed, would be great.

 

 

 

Edited by Fairyshine
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10 hours ago, rixk said:

If someone isn't recording, what you say. Does it mean you didn't say anything at all?

 

There's no place this would have been said that isn't recorded. Forums, IRC, in-game chat, an email, it would all be somewhere.

 

Unsubstantiated, paraphrased quotes are no better than hearsay, because that's exactly what they are. There are enough times when someone gives an actual verbatim quote and still tries to use it to say the complete opposite of what the quote actually said, so why should anyone trust vague secondhand information about promises that may or may not have been made?

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33 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

 

There's no place this would have been said that isn't recorded. Forums, IRC, in-game chat, an email, it would all be somewhere.

 

Unsubstantiated, paraphrased quotes are no better than hearsay, because that's exactly what they are. There are enough times when someone gives an actual verbatim quote and still tries to use it to say the complete opposite of what the quote actually said, so why should anyone trust vague secondhand information about promises that may or may not have been made?

All I am trying to say is, that not having that quote doesn't automatically mean, that it hasn't been said. Yes, it can mean that the conversation didn't happen. But it can also mean, that the conversation happened and simply noone(from currently active players) has the log.

One person knows for certain tho.. Rolf. :)

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8 minutes ago, rixk said:

All I am trying to say is, that not having that quote doesn't automatically mean, that it hasn't been said. Yes, it can mean that the conversation didn't happen. But it can also mean, that the conversation happened and simply noone(from currently active players) has the log.

One person knows for certain tho.. Rolf. :)

That would assume that even Rolf remembers, that's a lot of maybes for someone to tell the community: y'all remember wrong. Quotes are easily faked for that matter, what makes anyone thing a quote from Rolf from years ago would be accepted?

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This isn't about keeping the pans but the replacements.  It was said and I know it is in the back of a few people's minds.  They just haven't let us know what the replacement is yet.  Can we please get that information?

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7 minutes ago, Pashka said:

This isn't about keeping the pans but the replacements.  It was said and I know it is in the back of a few people's minds.  They just haven't let us know what the replacement is yet.  Can we please get that information?

 

Keeping them forever seems like a decent replacement to me.

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13 minutes ago, Pingpong said:

That would assume that even Rolf remembers, that's a lot of maybes for someone to tell the community: y'all remember wrong. Quotes are easily faked for that matter, what makes anyone thing a quote from Rolf from years ago would be accepted?

True.. If currently someone even came with a quote, it would probably be considered automatically fake. No matter if it is genuine or not.

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I'd love if we got to keep them but I know that is a lost cause.  If they could give us some sort of on deed decay reduction (removal) that would be perfect.  Then the liquids that they seem to be having a hard time on decay with wouldn't decay either.

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1 hour ago, Pashka said:

I'd love if we got to keep them but I know that is a lost cause.  If they could give us some sort of on deed decay reduction (removal) that would be perfect.  Then the liquids that they seem to be having a hard time on decay with wouldn't decay either.

A way to stop liquids decaying is coming with the cooking update, if I read the news correctly.

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1 hour ago, rixk said:

True.. If currently someone even came with a quote, it would probably be considered automatically fake. No matter if it is genuine or not.

 

Almost any place the quote would come from would be verifiable by multiple parties. It's not as if only one person keeps IRC logs, or anything like that. To clarify, I'm not assuming anyone is lying, just saying that people even misinterpret things when they can provide direct quotes, so I'm not going to implicitly 110% trust someone who can't.

 

 

That said: There are already replacements for some of the functionality, such as being able to use huge tubs and large barrels/amphorae for dying things. Long-term liquid storage is also in the works. It's been stated by staff in this thread that the buggy TARDIS-like "bigger on the inside" functionality is not being replaced by something else, because it was never intended to begin with.

Edited by Ostentatio

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1 hour ago, Ostentatio said:

 

Almost any place the quote would come from would be verifiable by multiple parties. It's not as if only one person keeps IRC logs, or anything like that. To clarify, I'm not assuming anyone is lying, just saying that people even misinterpret things when they can provide direct quotes, so I'm not going to implicitly 110% trust someone who can't.

 

 

That said: There are already replacements for some of the functionality, such as being able to use huge tubs and large barrels/amphorae for dying things. Long-term liquid storage is also in the works. It's been stated by staff in this thread that the buggy TARDIS-like "bigger on the inside" functionality is not being replaced by something else, because it was never intended to begin with.

 

Quote or no quote, the fact that it was allowed in game and allowed to be traded on forums hosted by the game owner and developers, implies the item became part of the game lore. 

 

Liquid storage is only one part of the value.  Constant decay on everything you create for your deed or your chars, no containers which keep ores sorted yet not decaying which can be heated inside a burning forge, places to store eggs and flowers which will have them not decay, storage spaces for rare or enchanted tools / weapons / armor where they won't decay, places to store enchanted teeth / ores / strings / clay / creation mats...

 

It does not matter that the "bigger on the inside than the outside" functionality was not intended, the fact remains that there are no items to replace the different functionalities the pans are used for.  The issue is there are NO OTHER OPTIONS IN GAME to store these said items without constant freaking decay.  I mean, I would love to put armor in an armor stand...but I don't because it takes decay.  Why have armor stands if it does not stop decay on the stored items?  Nobody uses them for valuable armor.  Same with weapon stands.  Same with using forges or chests or coffins for tools.  Everywhere you put stuff, it decays.  You pay for a deed to keep your in game stuff safe, yet nothing protects it from constant decay.  That is the reason the price of these items were so high, and why people were prepared to pay the price.  There is a clear correlation between people wanting more storage options for created and valuable items which would TAKE AWAY DECAY.

Edited by Fairyshine
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And I would feel very sorry for someone still playing Wurm on the same computer they had 7 to 10 years ago. Not everyone copies every single log from their old computer or hooks their old drives up. Not everyone uses piles of DVDs or CDs to save useless artifacts from chat logs.

 

bLg3fhs.jpg

Edited by Audrel
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