Fountain pan Replacements

[Ostentatio 1,970]

1 hour ago, Gaeron said:

did he say that cedar only was being targeted or are all the wood bonuses being looked at?

 

if only cedar then a more sensible thing would be to bump up the amphora protection so its better than cedar rather than yet another nerf. Sends a more positive message to the player base.

 

It's specifically the weird stacked cedar protection that's being looked at, but I don't know if the cedar bonus is going to just go away entirely. It's definitely getting changed.

 

As I mentioned in my thread on the subject, taking advantage of it is really stupid and annoying and amounts to figuring out how many wooden containers you can nest inside each other like those Russian dolls, so a change makes sense.

[yasgur 30]

8 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

 

It's specifically the weird stacked cedar protection that's being looked at, but I don't know if the cedar bonus is going to just go away entirely. It's definitely getting changed.

 

As I mentioned in my thread on the subject, taking advantage of it is really stupid and annoying and amounts to figuring out how many wooden containers you can nest inside each other like those Russian dolls, so a change makes sense.

 

The results you posted did not seem game breaking, so I'm not sure it makes sense for the game developers to spend time on it.  I think the player community has higher priorities.  For example, there have been a lot of requests to lower or remove decay on deeds with significant upkeep.  That move in itself would negate most people bothering to see how many layers of cedar containers they can stack.

Edited September 21, 2016 by yasgur

[Ostentatio 1,970]

3 minutes ago, yasgur said:

 

The results you posted did not seem game breaking, so I'm not sure it makes sense for the game developers to spend time on it.  I think the player community has higher priorities.  For example, there have been a lot of requests to lower or remove decay on deeds with significant upkeep.  That move in itself would negate most people bothering to see how many layers of cedar containers they can stack.

 

Two separate issues. The stacked cedar thing is a bug and is being addressed as such, from what they're saying, and removing more sources of decay on-deed is suggestion material, and something that I think is being looked into, but I'm not sure. Wasn't that actually mentioned in the dev goals thread a while back?

[Makarus 458]

Can someone give me a reason why they were deemed problematic in thenfirst place?

 

I've never understood this tendency to nerf or otherwise reduce useful and liked aspects if gameplay, so maybe someone can enlighten me.

 

 

[Retrograde 12,013]

Their problematic issue is the tardis effect. They take up on average 2.5 (saucepan) volume to 18 (satchel), others have them in barrels and leather backpacks.

 

While this alone does not provide a problem, it is then compounded by being able to be stored in a magic chest, and indeed even nested, allowing players too store up to 45 times the space per single fountain pan.

 

Many players have several, if not a dozen of these, which can become hugely unbalanced, given a small magic chest can be used to hold infinite amounts of items and volume.

 

They were allowed to remain as they allowed players to dye large objects (as no container over 45kg could be lifted). Once amphoras and large barrels were introduced and changed to allow these functions, we began to move towards addressing this old item.

 

TL;DR

The reason we left them in was dying objects, this was not the reason players kept them.

[Makarus 458]

I still dont see a problem

 

I play on freedom. Thats pve. Not pv opi (other player inventory)

They dont exist on epic.

Chaos has had them for years. Gameplay wasnt broken.

Why are they a problem?

Large barrels are trash. I have only ever used them for temper water.

The new amphoras, i've yet to use.

I havent seen a vote of confidence in this thread towards them.

 

Thanks for your explaination.

Still awaiting an answer to my inquiry.

[Pashka 707]

Hmmm.  The reason originally given was that they caused a problem with the programming.  Now it is because of some people that were jealous?  Guess it all comes out in the end when people forget what they said in the beginning.  Good to know.

 

Replacement please?  Can we please find out what the item is that is being worked on for this functionality?  Many of us are trying to make plans and would like for those plans to include whatever the replacement will be.

[Cerberus 247]

We don't like our stuff decaying on our deeds. It is bad enough it takes more than an hour to repair everything in normal chests, coffins, carts and everywhere else we stuff items not protected inside our magic chests. I've never heard anyone using them to dye things, but to use as safe storage inside magic chests.

[zigozag 918]

1 hour ago, Makarus said:

Can someone give me a reason why they were deemed problematic in thenfirst place?

21 minutes ago, Pashka said:

The reason originally given ...

 

Oh please, i don't want to derail, but original reason for nerfing hell horses  was speed calculations, and then in another thread we got the "balance issues" answer, and then in original thread we heard that both reasons were valid, but who knows why we were told the first in one thread and the second in the other and also many hours apart from each other. They were deemed problematic because somebody woke up and decided so.

 

WTS salt, a lot of it

 

When these are deleted, i for sure would love some decay reduction (or removal) for everybody.

Edited September 21, 2016 by zigozag

[Pashka 707]

I would love to see decay removed or reduced greatly on deeds.

[rixk 830]

Word "balance" in pve. Usually it means, that someone has a nice item. Someone else(usually player, who has played maybe a week or so) is jealous about it. Instead of putting some effort to obtain it(yes, those fountain pans are still available to all, it has a price of course, but they are/were still available for trade), a campaign is being started "why does he have it, that's unfair?!? Nerf!!" and the result is: shiny/fun item gets removed/nerfed. In essence MMOs nowadays(sadly not only Wurm) are like some kind of twisted communistic experiments, where "balancing" means, everyone has to be equally poor. When someone stands out and gets something and stands out... don't worry, other players will drag the person back down(with the help of devs) to the grey mass.

[joedobo 1,187]

prior to bulk bins there were a heck of a lot of items in the database for things like rock shards, logs, planks, etc. The game worked although it did have some lag. Lag likely exaggerated by the decay code processing those items.

 

I'm in favor of no decay for things on deed.

 

So here's a question: How much would a player's possession need to grow on deed to the point where it is worse than our pre-bulk bin situation?

 

Here's some ideas ( i think I wrote about a couple in an earlier post).

1. rares bulk containers. duplicates of FSB and BSB but they only hold rares.

2. the ability to configure bulk bins so instead of averaging into one group per item it will average into multiple groups of the same item type but divided up by quality with some kind of a modulo function. say a setting of 5, 10, 20, 100. You could have 10 iron lump quality groupings in a bin: 10, 20, 30 ... 90.

3. a keg stack like thingy which holds kegs of liquids. no decay for its contents and only kegs of liquids will go in it.

4. maybe change magic chests to have unlimited volume but limited item count. Heck I'd go as far as including a container like this for every deed; a no decay, unlimited volume, yet limited item count deed storage.

 

edit..

The deed storage container should also hold an item of any size. To put it another way, remove all the checks for available volume and if the containers x,y,z dimensions are large enough to hold the item. It can hold anything you can pick up but it can only so many of those items.

Edited September 23, 2016 by joedobo

[Audrel 2,223]

55 minutes ago, joedobo said:

 

2. the ability to configure bulk bins so instead of averaging into one group per item it will average into multiple groups of the same item type but divided up by quality with some kind of a modulo function. say a setting of 5, 10, 20, 100. You could have 10 iron lump quality groupings in a bin: 10, 20, 30 ... 90.

 

 

I would have far less bins if I could differentiate inside them. In fact, I would have 90% less because I have bins for every 10 QL. The upper ones are mostly empty but they are an item, empty or not. I would also have less crates for the same reason. WIth the crates, it would be tremendously less because they only hold 300 items. 

 

EDIT: Though I bet it would be a programming nightmare to set it up.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Audrel

[Ayes 3,715]

9 hours ago, joedobo said:

You could have 10 iron lump quality groupings in a bin: 10, 20, 30 ... 90

 

Some WU servers already have this auto-sorting into 10 QL rating intervals. First one I saw it mentioned on was Sklotopolis. Yep, WO needs to add some of these WU mods enabled by some of the more creative QoL focused server owners there. This is for bulk bins though not crates, which is good because if you still want to combine various QL's you first drop them into a crate and then into your bulk bin, which may be preferable in some instances.

 

=Ayes=

[Toolhead 209]

Dank pans? Pan danks? I refuse to Prem any more toons to hold all this ######!

[joedobo 1,187]

6 hours ago, Ayes said:

 

Some WU servers already have this auto-sorting into 10 QL rating intervals. First one I saw it mentioned on was Sklotopolis. Yep, WO needs to add some of these WU mods enabled by some of the more creative QoL focused server owners there. This is for bulk bins though not crates, which is good because if you still want to combine various QL's you first drop them into a crate and then into your bulk bin, which may be preferable in some instances.

 

=Ayes=

 

It's on my list of things to make a mod for: currently finish wurminianpacifist, then make a tool to help with sowing and harvesting farm crops, then make the bulk bin utility expansion (configurable quality groupings, maybe add rares as a separate item group in any bin, make it possible to toggle any container between standard and bulk).

 

Coarse I'm slow so it might take months before I get to the bins. Anyway, I think the point I'm getting at is it's a popular idea that many have either implemented or are thinking about making.

[geode 292]

19 hours ago, rixk said:

Word "balance" in pve. Usually it means, that someone has a nice item. Someone else(usually player, who has played maybe a week or so) is jealous about it. Instead of putting some effort to obtain it(yes, those fountain pans are still available to all, it has a price of course, but they are/were still available for trade), a campaign is being started "why does he have it, that's unfair?!? Nerf!!" and the result is: shiny/fun item gets removed/nerfed. In essence MMOs nowadays(sadly not only Wurm) are like some kind of twisted communistic experiments, where "balancing" means, everyone has to be equally poor. When someone stands out and gets something and stands out... don't worry, other players will drag the person back down(with the help of devs) to the grey mass.

 

Jealousy? Hardly. I have enough money to purchase a Fountain Pan, got enough money to pay for several. Would make things easier... but that for me has never been the point.

 

Wurm is built with Encumbrance as a major game system, and any game with an encumbrance system definitely isn't designed to be convenient or easy. Encumbrance sets limits to how much a character can carry, how fast thy can walk with what they have, and other factors of gameplay. We are SUPPOSED to be limited in how much we carry. We are SUPPOSED to be limited in how much we can store and store without decay. We are SUPPOSED to walk slowly up a hill if we are carrying too much and We are SUPPOSED to get eaten by that spider if we tried to haul everything at one time. These parameters are a part of game design for Wurm and encumbrance affects many thing by design. It's how Rolf wanted Wurm to play out. Apparently some of you don't know what an encumbrance system is or why it's a part of some game's design or where it comes from or why Rolf and Notch included it with Wurm. You will have to ask them why since they can answer your questions better than I can, but I for one accept the game as it's designed as I accept other games and how they are designed... rather than look for workarounds and cheats to bypass how the game is suppose to play out. Fountain Pans don't only flip a big fat middle finger at the Item Inventory system in the game, it also flips that bird at the Encumbrance system as well. My objections to these things have always been based on Fountain Pans being an item that where devised by Players to circumvent game design with no regard or respect for that design, nor with any regard of the consequences long term to the game and other Players by their use.

 

Wurm is a game where some of what we can do we have to discover, but come on already... some things you just know are "too good to be true" and with how Wurm is designed at a base level Fountain Pans clearly don't fit in the system. Discovering they could be made I don't see as a bad thing, making them and encouraging others to do so as well I do see an inappropriate for the game.

You want to use these things? That's up to you, and it's on you as well. I know better than to use these things no matter how convenient they are in day to day gameplay. I also won't spend money on one of these things either. If Rolf designs something like a Fountain and makes it officially available ingame then and on then will my opinion change about them.

Edited September 23, 2016 by geode

[Kadore 926]

6 minutes ago, geode said:

 

Jealousy? Hardly. I have enough money to purchase a Fountain Pan, got enough money to pay for several. Would make things easier... but that for me has never been the point.

 

Wurm is built with Encumbrance as a major game system, and any game with an encumbrance system definitely isn't designed to be convenient or easy. Encumbrance sets limits to how much a character can carry, how fast thy can walk with what they have, and other factors of gameplay. We are SUPPOSED to be limited in how much we carry. We are SUPPOSED to be limited in how much we can store and store without decay. We are SUPPOSED to walk slowly up a hill if we are carrying too much and We are SUPPOSED to get eaten by that spider if we tried to haul everything at one time. These parameters are a part of game design for Wurm and encumbrance affects many thing by design. It's how Rolf wanted Wurm to play out. Apparently some of you don't know what an encumbrance system is or why it's a part of some game's design or where it comes from or why Rolf and Notch included it with Wurm. You will have to ask them why since they can answer your questions better than I can, but I for one accept the game as it's designed as I accept other games and how they are designed... rather than look for workarounds and cheats to bypass how the game is suppose to play out. Wurm is a game where some of what we can do we have to discover, but come on already... some things you just know are "too good to be true" and with how Wurm is designed at a base level Fountain Pans clearly don't fit in the system.

 

My objections to these things have always been based on Fountain Pans being an item that where devised by Players to circumvent game design with no regard or respect for that design, nor with any regard of the consequences long term to the game and other Players by their use. You want to use these things? That's up to you, and it's on you as well. I know better than to use these things no matter how convenient they are in day to day gameplay. I also won't spend money on one of these things either.

 

You can train every skill to max, with the exception of priest skills and more than one meditation line, if caps and other limiting factors were so key to making Wurm the best experience possible, why is this possible.

 

I would buy into the Circumventing game design if I truly believed Rolf had a vision he was following with some grand plan to it's fruition, lately to me the game seems to be run solely by Volunteers, Interns, and random people off the street, Rolf has been far too silent for too long for me to believe he has a hand in much.

 

Most of the responses from the PR team seem to be their own words and not official responses from Rolf.

 

Leave em in take em out, end of the day the decision will be made, continuation of the same path of changes whether players agree or not is where the real damage is being done.

 

 

[Aeris 3,750]

19 minutes ago, geode said:

 

My objections to these things have always been based on Fountain Pans being an item that where devised by Players to circumvent game design with no regard or respect for that design, nor with any regard of the consequences long term to the game and other Players by their use. You want to use these things? That's up to you, and it's on you as well. I know better than to use these things no matter how convenient they are in day to day gameplay. I also won't spend money on one of these things either.

 

 

Come back with more arguments when that high horse is nerfed or dies due to disease.

 

Fact is that the game has a lot higher decay now than when most of us older players started playing, and part of the enjoyment in the game is being able to use and admire all the items we've gathered up over the years. I don't have a lot of time to play these days and even thinking about logging into Wurm gives me the creeps because I know that I will have to repair everything in my house that isn't in a magical chest. It's not a big house, but it takes hours to repair all the items even with 70+ repairing. Do I think this is an enjoyable way to spend my time online? The answer is no, and I've tried using storage alts (and if you try to tell us we're abusing or circumventing the game mechanics because we have once- or seldom-premmed characters for storage you're out of line) but it's really tedious.

 

Personally I've never had a fountain-anything but if I was given one I'd scream like a banshee and thank every star there is because it would enable me to keep my crap out of harm's way for a little bit longer. The extra storage possibility isn't hurting anyone and it's mostly being used to counter the decay that's been steadily increased for years. Remove the deed decay entirely for as long as there are upkeep funds on a deed and we won't have to "abuse" the legacy items.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Aeris

[geode 292]

1 minute ago, Kadore said:

You can train every skill to max, with the exception of priest skills and more than one meditation line, if caps and other limiting factors were so key to making Wurm the best experience possible, why is this possible.

 

I would buy into the Circumventing game design if I truly believed Rolf had a vision he was following with some grand plan to it's fruition, lately to me the game seems to be run solely by Volunteers, Interns, and random people off the street, Rolf has been far too silent for too long for me to believe he has a hand in much.

 

Most of the responses from the PR team seem to be their own words and not official responses from Rolf.

 

Leave em in take em out, end of the day the decision will be made, continuation of the same path of changes whether players agree or not is where the real damage is being done.

 

 

 

So since you see, or perceive, or believe that Wurm has no direction you believe it offers you the opportunity to do whatever you desire regardless of the consequences? Throw the game design and intent out the window and do what ever the **** you want to?

 

Enough said.

[geode 292]

19 minutes ago, Aeris said:

 

Come back with more arguments when that high horse is nerfed or dies due to disease.

 

Fact is that the game has a lot higher decay now than when most of us older players started playing, and part of the enjoyment in the game is being able to use and admire all the items we've gathered up over the years. I don't have a lot of time to play these days and even thinking about logging into Wurm gives me the creeps because I know that I will have to repair everything in my house that isn't in a magical chest. It's not a big house, but it takes hours to repair all the items even with 70+ repairing. Do I think this is an enjoyable way to spend my time online? The answer is no, and I've tried using storage alts (and if you try to tell us we're abusing or circumventing the game mechanics because we have once- or seldom-premmed characters for storage you're out of line) but it's really tedious.

 

Personally I've never had a fountain-anything but if I was given one I'd scream like a banshee and thank every star there is because it would enable me to keep my crap out of harm's way for a little bit longer. The extra storage possibility isn't hurting anyone and it's mostly being used to counter the decay that's been steadily increased for years. Remove the deed decay entirely for as long as there are upkeep funds on a deed and we won't have to "abuse" the legacy items.

 

I've been here perhaps as long you as you have Aeris. 2008 and onward. Ask a Staff member to confirm, you know a few. I don't remember when you started. I know all about the decay rate and I agree. It has gotten worse since that time. However does that justify using a player discovered "device" that disregards the intended gameplay to also bypass the decay system as well? You might think it's OK to do so but on that point I don't agree and never will.

 

I'm not here to win a popularity contest Aeris. If you or others don't like my point of view on this that's fine with me. It's not going to change how I see this issue. I was pointing out that there is in fact other reasons why myself, and maybe others, are against Fountain Pans. It's not about jealousy, it's about disagreeing with other Players that it's OK to disregard how the game is designed, no matter what the reason given to justify it.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by geode

[Aeris 3,750]

If you've been here since 2008 and seen how the decay rate has gradually gotten worse - Why fight for something that'll further worsen the game instead of promoting something that will improve it? I don't care whether you agree with me or not, but don't demonize people who disagree with you by trying to make it out as if they're abusing something that will in any way harm the game when it won't - And you know it.

[geode 292]

No I DON"T know that Fountain Pans won't harm the game, and respectfully neither do you or anyone else in this discussion.

 

Only Rolf and a few Devs have access to the Source Code for the Game and probably only Rolf knows for certain what effects these things cause on the game as the server runs. Since Rolf has said they have to go I will take his word for it. It's Rolf's game, his game design, and he knows much more about what it can tolerate and what it can't.

 

If Rolf comes on the Forums tomorrow or next week and says Fountain Pans can stay, or he annouces he is adding a replacement then that answer the question as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'm not demonizing anyone. I'm calling things as I see them. I can't call things as YOU see them, I'm not you or anyone else.

 

Good Night.

Edited September 23, 2016 by geode

[Aeris 3,750]

Good night to you too, sleep well.

[Makarus 458]

So. Back to the issue at hand.

 

My fountain pans and satchels and backpacks have decayed. Kargely in part to GM mismanagement of situations.

Those who know me will know that I've had any and all faith in the GM squad torn out of me... by themselves.

 

Therefore my position remains: enhanced storage is benificial to gameplay for gameplay reasons. Most games have upgradable storage. As you progress so does your ability to store.

 

My issue with Wurm at its core has always beeb the cumbersome chorelike nature of many gameplay aspects.

Sit down to play, click repair, get up and do something not Wurm for ten minutes.

Fun gameplay.

 

I've got a small WU thing going and the thought has occured to me, how to obtain fountain pans with my own WU server?