Fountain pan Replacements

[Lolabelle 597]

On 7/5/2016 at 1:22 PM, Fooligun said:

To be honest, this might be something that the dev's haven't anticipated, but with PVE stat restrictions being removed on F2P accounts. it would be possible to make 20-30 body strength accounts (sucks but it'll never decay or buy cheap accounts?) and use these as storage alts.

 

And rather than being limited to the base F2P model, keeping stats would increase the available storage of each account. But as many have said, this is just pointing out an issue with the game which is when you have an active deed with plenty of upkeep, maintaining such is a chore even if you spend money to play the game. And no, buying multiple LMC's is not a strategy that should ever be necessary in this game.

yes but you still want those alts to be prem once so as not to poof with all your good items.

[Lolabelle 597]

what about a spell that could be cast on a large container (such as a coffin or a wardrobe) to prevent decay for a certain time. The spell would decay over time. Make only for higher level priests or a linking spell. 

 

Think carefully about which priest could cast this spell so as not to make to easily available.   Could help economy too with charging for casts and travel.

[Hordern 2,177]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 5:09 AM, Lolabelle said:

yes but you still want those alts to be prem once so as not to poof with all your good items.

They'd have to have been premium to get the Body Strength above 20 in the first place

[Mith 318]

I think I will take the lack of dev response as a sign I dont need to reprem. It would have been nice with a "suck it up, you dont get jack" or a "dont worry, we have a replacement ready"
Situations like these are what makes me consider my commitment to wurm. Sadly its the first time in 10 years I have conidered not paying for prem time.

[Retrograde 12,013]

23 hours ago, Mith said:

I think I will take the lack of dev response as a sign I dont need to reprem. It would have been nice with a "suck it up, you dont get jack" or a "dont worry, we have a replacement ready"
Situations like these are what makes me consider my commitment to wurm. Sadly its the first time in 10 years I have conidered not paying for prem time.

 

 

On 30/06/2016 at 7:47 PM, Budda said:

The talk of replacing them was in terms of the functionality that isn't available by other means (such as painting the largest boats), not the functionality that adds a tardis effect to any container. We'll be looking into some more things to replace their useful (and not broken) functionality before we take them out, but don't expect to keep the ability of expanding any container to stupidly huge storage.

 

We did state several times that we're still looking into replacing SOME functionality. Given it's still some time away it's not going to be an immediate introduction

[Pashka 707]

Things tend to take a bit of time in this game.  The time left on the rifts is not that long now.  I'd have thought if any thought process had even taken place there would be some ideas of what they were going to do.  They have had what 8 months to think about how to replace the storage ability of the rifts?  I don't think any of us are asking for an immediate introduction but at least some kind of knowledge that something is going on. 

[Alyeska 2,621]

5 hours ago, Retrograde said:

 

 

 

We did state several times that we're still looking into replacing SOME functionality. Given it's still some time away it's not going to be an immediate introduction

 

Looking into possibly maybe perhaps replacing SOME functionality someday sometime? See, and I maybe one day perhaps will consider looking into the possiblity of repremming some of my accounts, then. Maybe... as long as they allowed to leave fountainpans ingame before. That sounds about a fair measure.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Alyeska

[Ostentatio 1,970]

20 hours ago, Alyeska said:

 

Looking into possibly maybe perhaps replacing SOME functionality someday sometime? See, and I maybe one day perhaps will consider looking into the possiblity of repremming some of my accounts, then. Maybe... as long as they allowed to leave fountainpans ingame before. That sounds about a fair measure.

 

Holding your own account hostage in order to attempt to force the developers to reimplement an item that only existed as a bug in the first place? Yeah, you're not going to get far.

[Alyeska 2,621]

4 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

 

Holding your own account hostage in order to attempt to force the developers to reimplement an item that only existed as a bug in the first place? Yeah, you're not going to get far.

Losing income from 20 premium characters simply because the players are losing interest in the game (or rather, poor staff actions) might prompt some brainstorming. Who knows. I'm not losing out, there's plenty of fish in the sea that do not mess with their customers.

 

And no, I'm not so much bothered by the removal of a bugged item as much as the manner in which it's done. First promise to keep them as a legacy, then say they'll remove them but replace the functionality,  then say they're maybe thinking about replacing SOME of the functions and keeping it as vague as possible, saying there's no hurry. If you can't understand why that's a problem then we won't see eye to eye on it anyway.

[Ostentatio 1,970]

17 hours ago, Alyeska said:

 First promise to keep them as a legacy

 

Where was this actually promised? This isn't the first time I've heard this claim, but I've never seen it substantiated.

[Pashka 707]

There are a good bit of the history of forums/irc chats lost because of an issue that happened.  I'll assume since noone can find it that it was during that period.  Again because it is hard for you to understand.  It isn't about that anymore because the decision has been made.  But the decision also came with promises of replacing the usefulness of them.  That is what we are looking for now.  I'm sorry that you are having issues with something that many of us came to love and enjoy isn't something you had.  However, the new item will be available to all so please be thankful that we are fighting to better the game and the game's items.

[Ostentatio 1,970]

3 minutes ago, Pashka said:

There are a good bit of the history of forums/irc chats lost because of an issue that happened.  I'll assume since noone can find it that it was during that period.  Again because it is hard for you to understand.  It isn't about that anymore because the decision has been made.  But the decision also came with promises of replacing the usefulness of them.  That is what we are looking for now.  I'm sorry that you are having issues with something that many of us came to love and enjoy isn't something you had.  However, the new item will be available to all so please be thankful that we are fighting to better the game and the game's items.

 

1. The statement that fountain pans wouldn't be removed was on forums and/or IRC but literally no one has been able to find it? Nobody has IRC logs or can find a forum post? That's pretty strange!
2. I can't really tell what you mean in the sentence beginning "I'm sorry" because of the grammar, but if you're implying I'm upset because I never had a fountain pan myself, I'm not. I don't like them because they're silly and broken, and I don't like the arguments against their removal because the developers have made efforts to compromise regarding that and replacing their functionality. Assuming that I'm only saying the things I say out of some kind of petty self-interest is wrong and misguided.
3. No reasonable person thinks the developers ever promised to replace all the functionality of a fountain pan, such as the ability to store kiloliters of volume inside a pan or a backpack. They've made efforts to replicate useful and non-broken functionality of them through things like allowing us to pick up tubs in order to dye large items.

[Pashka 707]

Again.  it isn't about what was but what is.  I really am sorry that is so difficult for you to understand.  But please don't worry over it.

[MetalDragon 1,630]

One of the benefits of fountain pans (the huge undecayable storage) was I could quit how ever many times, and I'd be able to come back and pick up where i left off with no problems as long as I was paying for my deed while inactive.

 

Now my own stock would have decayed, and don't tend to be interested in starting over on a game just because I couldn't hold certain things in my inventory before I left.

 

[Pandalet 1,848]

The fact that I can hold a lot more in 40s worth of (brand new, 20 BS) alts than I can in 40s worth of LMC implies to me that LMCs are too small.  Making them cheaper hurts those who already paid full price, so that's no good.  Making LMCs be perhaps a bit bigger than a coffin seems to answer most of the issues, without having to retain broken meta-containers. 

 

And, let's be clear, 40s worth of alts is at least 6 alts, at current values, and assuming you're prepared to put more than absolute minimal effort in, some or all of those could get to more than 20BS in the month they're premium.

[MrGARY 12,421]

2 hours ago, Pandalet said:

And, let's be clear, 40s worth of alts is at least 6 alts, at current values

 

If Epic prices are similar to Freedom, referrals are around 6s?  So prem with 10s, get 2s back immediately in bank, get 6s from referrals, 2s per alt.  That's 20 alts that last forever. 

 

Get 20 bs on each, 2800kg of things that can be stored.  Two people use our lmc, it's pretty packed, the contents are exactly 711.28kg.  So would need 4 lmc in this case to match what one chest worth of alts can do, while I'm sure I could bring that chest up to 1000kg or more, it's still a big difference

[Fairyshine 3,183]

Long version, scroll down for TL:DR version

 

Once COULD say the following:  Decay seems to be the one constant gripe of most Wurm players. The most popular things in game seem to be all the different options we have to stop things from decaying, e.g enchanting grass, caring for animals, paying for deeds so our houses and fences don't decay, and of course protecting bulk stuff inside containers while on deed.  All of these decisions were HUGELY populular.  However, when wrapping stuff like pelts, were removed, it was very unpopular.  In essence I believe this has to do with stopping constant decay.

 

Our deed has more than six months upkeep, yet we have to constantly repair created items like statues, lamps, colossi, turrets, flowerpots, banners, flags, containers, pans, forges, ships... lanterns still even decay inside your inventory. You spend hours making maple syrup, or WEEKS grinding nat subs to make paints, and they decay.   These items, like pelts, can't even be repaired and imped back up.  You can pay extra to own a priest to repair damage, but then you have to pay more money into a game to pay for a priest to repair damage, after you already paid money into the game to try and stop decay...

 

Of course, aging and decay is necessary to get rid of excess and ensure new resources can be put into game when old ones disappear, this ensures people log in and keep playing...but there should also be adequate ways to ensure your most prized items do not decay (funnily enough, this ALSO ensures people log in and keep playing). From my own perspective, I believe that when people put real life money into a game paying for a deed to protect their virtual items, the ideal would be that ALL their chosen virtual items will be protected from decay while on paid for deed.   I still don't understand how fountain pan containers really "broke" the game (please don't post pages of how it broke the game, I read pages for and against the pans already, and still don't see that it broke the game).  Similar to this, I don't understand how going faster uphill on bridges broke the game, nor how pink/green unicorns "broke" the game, nor how trading mirrors so you could change your haircut, "broke" the game, or why the change in ship textures from unique items which reflected the wood type they were created from to a cookie cutter "everything looks the same" models enhanced the game.  

 

I don't know the direction the devs want to take for the game, so the following statement is made from a player standing on the outside and just making her own assumptions:  What I do see a lot is people whingeing about nonsense, and then things get changed in the game because the loud people whinge about them.  (I guess I am not loud enough 'cause carts not following terrain is a serious source of frustration yet that has now been in game for a year?)

 

TL:DR

Decay sucks.  Offer a sheet with options for every deed owner to decide what decays on their deed, with tick boxes which can be unticked by those who love repairing stuff on their deeds (Read: NOT ME.)  If I want to get rid of something, I will drop it off deed or in my trashbin (or give it to a noob.  As a noob I even carried boat seats home.)

 

 

[KyleBooze 451]

Just remove ondeed decay entirely, with the exception of contents in trash bins.

[SeeD 117]

Im curious as to this is "no one should have to deal with decay and the world be full of slowly decaying ruins" or "speed up decay off deed because only I matter"

 

Seriously, an 8ql statue of mine took 80 damage in six months. unless you're all living on lava tiles, i dont think that decay is the big boogeyman.

 

Removing decay would make ql not matter at all (further hurting your precious market, and impacting the game), would mean even more ruins sitting around slowly decaying (because they only start decaying under 30 days upkeep). and would punish those who do live off deed (remember the slight increase in off deed building decay? remember how you all raged?)

 

The fact this bug was abused and benefited from for so many years means nothing to you all? Use cedar containers and slow decay, but accept decay as a part of a mechanic and stop crying because your broken exploit is being removed in 100 days

[KyleBooze 451]

They're not 'ruins' if they're deeded and have upkeep...

I'm paying to NOT have decay, if people don't want to pay for a deed, they can deal with the decay. I still don't understand why 30days upkeep means my deed is falling apart, I paid for that 30days and I shouldn't need to worry.

[Fairyshine 3,183]

20 minutes ago, SeeD said:

Im curious as to this is "no one should have to deal with decay and the world be full of slowly decaying ruins" or "speed up decay off deed because only I matter"

 

Seriously, an 8ql statue of mine took 80 damage in six months. unless you're all living on lava tiles, i dont think that decay is the big boogeyman.

 

Removing decay would make ql not matter at all (further hurting your precious market, and impacting the game), would mean even more ruins sitting around slowly decaying (because they only start decaying under 30 days upkeep). and would punish those who do live off deed (remember the slight increase in off deed building decay? remember how you all raged?)

 

The fact this bug was abused and benefited from for so many years means nothing to you all? Use cedar containers and slow decay, but accept decay as a part of a mechanic and stop crying because your broken exploit is being removed in 100 days

 

I guess you would be someone who would keep boxes ticked for on deed decay if given the choice?  If so, great, that is your choice. I don't want decay on my deed.  I would prefer to have NO decay on my deed at all.  I would love for my deed to act like my inventory, where all items have no decay, except if I use them to perform an action.  Explanation follows:

 

In a broad sense, your argument is not really valid.  You are comparing things with each other which are not in competition with each other.  Quality on armor, tools and weapons, and in the future, ships, will always matter.   These items are used and thus take damage, and obviously, higher quality impacts not only the speed of the tool,  but also how often you can repair it before it poofs.  People will continue paying for imps on those items.  The market for these items will continue regardless of whether there is decay on deeds or not.  I am also sure that people won't mind small decay if the item is used (like a forge), but as far as decay across the board on absolutely everything while the space the items are kept in is paid for, really spurred the use and value of the fountain pans (and is the main reason they are so valued by those lucky enough to own them).  With regards to decorative items on deeds, I don't know anyone who pays for imping these regardless, so in reality things like statues, turrets and the like are just repaired and imped to the bare minimum, thus not affecting the current market any way.  What is really annoying is the fact that there is hidden decay ticks, meaning, you can have zero decay for literally months, and all of a sudden the decay ticks hit all at once and the item is half gone or poofs.

 

As far as offdeed structures are concerned:  From what I can gather, the current decay rate is fine.  It allows people to play offdeed and still have some time to explore and have fun without having to constantly log in JUST TO REPAIR.  To be honest, that was the main reason I made my first deed, since always checking fences, houses and all the other chores, became too much.  Again, if we could have no decay on deed at all, while keeping current rates of decay off deed, it would be great.

 

Lastly, to answer your question:  The fact this so-called "bug" was benefited from for so many years (as you rightly admit) means nothing to me, other than the observation that it was left in the game for many years.  Which, by logical deduction, means it became part of the Wurm world and lore, especially since the developers were asked about it and it was not immediately removed the moment they became aware of it.  Instead, they removed the ability to make more of these items, and left the already created ones in the game for so many years. Someone told me that rafts were never supposed to be put into carts to increase their capacity either.  The difference between the two things here is that nobody can make fountain pans any more, so some people whinged because they could not make them while others had them, and it is clear that everyone would love an item with big capacity in which you can store your stuffs and not worry about the decay.  This should cover weapons, armor, tools, roses, letters, eggs, fishing rods, saddles, shoes, dyes, syrup, food...everything.  To get back to the raft in cart to increase capacity argument:  Everyone can put rafts in carts, so it does not bother anyone (everyone has this option so it is free choice to use it or not).  The fact that people were willing to pay these extraordinary prices for fountain pans clearly shows that people want containers with a very large capacity which will stop constant decay on all their stuff. If you think about it logically, your deed should be your container where you can put your stuff without worrying about decay.  You pay for that virtual space every month, to keep your stuffs safe and away from decay.

 

Fountain pans were left in the game for many years and people used them for many years, with the devs knowing about it, so it could not be a bug if people were not banned for using it, right?  I mean, if you exploit a bug, you get banned if the devs find out, right?  Did it break the game?  No.  Did it annoy people like you?  Obviously.  Is it any skin off my nose? No. 

[rixk 830]

1 hour ago, SeeD said:

Im curious as to this is "no one should have to deal with decay and the world be full of slowly decaying ruins" or "speed up decay off deed because only I matter"

 

Seriously, an 8ql statue of mine took 80 damage in six months. unless you're all living on lava tiles, i dont think that decay is the big boogeyman.

 

Removing decay would make ql not matter at all (further hurting your precious market, and impacting the game), would mean even more ruins sitting around slowly decaying (because they only start decaying under 30 days upkeep). and would punish those who do live off deed (remember the slight increase in off deed building decay? remember how you all raged?)

 

The fact this bug was abused and benefited from for so many years means nothing to you all? Use cedar containers and slow decay, but accept decay as a part of a mechanic and stop crying because your broken exploit is being removed in 100 days

 

It isn't as simple as "bug was abused".. Time is the factor here, it came to existance via bug, yes. But how many of the current fountain pan users actually were the ones, who abused that bug and are the creators of the pans. Most of them have simply bought the pans, you can't blame them for using any bugs (especially considering the fact, that until last year the existance of those pans was accepted by everyone, including staff). So in essence the situation is similar to Niru's case. There GMs could also tell, that those are stolen goods/this is stolen money and take all back, but things/money have changed hands already, maybe even several times, so punishing those people does more harm than good. The right time to do it all is long gone.

 

You're telling, that decay is part of the mechanic. Yes, it is, but keeping fountain pans in the game for so long.. people trading them, using them, without any statement from the devs.. they had become part of the mechanic too.

[zigozag 918]

Calling big iquid containers becoming able to be picked up a replacing of fountain pains' functionality is very fishy. Painting large objects was clearly a missing/forgotten feature and inability to do so without a bugged item - just an oversight, and it had to be fixed anyway. I don't remember that being called a functionality replacement in the patch notes either. Obviously what people demanding functionality replacement was talking about was and is a way to get rid of decay for some items. 

[Ayes 3,715]

12 hours ago, Fairyshine said:

TL:DR

Decay sucks.  Offer a sheet with options for every deed owner to decide what decays on their deed, with tick boxes which can be unticked by those who love repairing stuff on their deeds (Read: NOT ME.)  If I want to get rid of something, I will drop it off deed or in my trashbin (or give it to a noob.  As a noob I even carried boat seats home.)

 

3 hours ago, Fairyshine said:

I guess you would be someone who would keep boxes ticked for on deed decay if given the choice?  If so, great, that is your choice. I don't want decay on my deed.  I would prefer to have NO decay on my deed at all.  I would love for my deed to act like my inventory, where all items have no decay, except if I use them to perform an action. If you think about it logically, your deed should be your container where you can put your stuff without worrying about decay.  You pay for that virtual space every month, to keep your stuffs safe and away from decay.

 

Two excellent posts Fairyshine! I linked them here but condensed the content so as not to be too repetitive, while I agree wholeheartedly with your points made.

 

It does make a lot of sense that those who *pay* for deeds should have decay immunity of everything within it. This would certainly add more value to their worth and seem a fitting benefit. Decay off deed could still be the retribution for those who prefer not to pay for a deed and perhaps this would even further encourage them to have their own.

 

No need then for any special storage devices such as magic chests and perhaps this is the reason why the Devs have not made this change. Squeezing the extra coins translated to RL dollars seems under suspicion to me in this instance but it would be a more equal opportunity benefit to just enable this no decay on deed situation for all, for many of the reasons you have nicely pointed out.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

[SeeD 117]

decay is a natural element of the game, it returns the status quo. not that hard to keep things going.

 

I could harp on about little things that annoy me, but the simple fact is you want to have your cake and eat it too. Do you have ANY idea how no decay would affect the game? or is it just "omg i shouldnt have to keep an eye on things"

 

No decay would mean items never leave the world, pickaxes and tools never need replacing (unless used) and things you purchase would stay around indefinitely.

 

for the short sighted, this sounds great, but in the long term, you wind up with complete and utter stagnation, no need to grind stonecutting, a creation ql statue will have the same effect as an 80qll statue, no need to improve that tool, let them lie around in piles.

 

Your inventory is your container, not your deed.

 

In the end, I'd agree with no decay if deed upkeep costs were tripled, similar to going over the citizen limits.