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Sold silver through paypal to Niru, now he disputes it

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7 hours ago, Alyeska said:

1 - a credit card company would have blocked the card much sooner if these were unusual charges. They watch where money gets spent and take action without the owner even realising their card got stolen. ANY credit card company will do this. Since they didn't, it confirms the original card holder is not unknown to spend heaps through paypal.

 

2 - paypal ruled that there had been no third party use of the account.  I assume they do this by checking login ips and login times. The account was never logged in by a stranger.

 

 

The card/paypal info was not stolen and the owner of it appears to go on crazy paypal sprees more often. This is a guy who decided he wanted it all and then had buyers remorse, and instead of trying to get the money back by selling the items, started disputing all the payments. I doubt it's even a scam since the items were never resold, leaving him with no profits.

 

The stories people come up with, like I wrote earlier, are not helping since this thread is linked for paypal to review. The more wild ideas pop in here, the harder it is for them to determine fact from fiction.

 

 

Unfortunately the exact type of scam I vaguely described above has plagued large MMOs like WoW for many years and still does to this day. This particular situation might not be the case but don't be naive about it. It's definitely not a secret the way it goes down and the credit card companies don't raise a red flag unless there are abnormally large transactions, a significant increase in frequency of transactions to new payees or if a card holder has opted for very specific credit protection on their cards (which no one ever does). If a card holder isn't diligent about their credit billing, a smart scammer can rack up quite a lengthy history of transactions before getting cut off.

 

If some of you know this person personally than perhaps it's not a scam but this chain of events is exactly what happens in the scams I mentioned. And yes, screwing people for their items and characters and getting all of his money back would be a profit and is the exact goal of scams of that nature. Hopefully this guy doesn't dupe the credit carrier either way, scam or not.

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Damnnnnn, $50k....that's crazy stupid. :blink:

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Hey just a quick heads up for all merchants out there:

I just called Paypal and received a few very interesting facts:

 

1. A real person can only have two Paypal accounts in their whole life. One private and one for their business.

 

2. If same person does a thing like in this case, (claminig security breach or other weired things that Paypal researches and finds invalid) he will lose his account.

 

3. In case of a credit card charge back (what Neal does currently with the 2nd wave of charge backs)

the Credit Card company asks Paypal for delivery evidence, and they do NOT accept evidence for Virtual Goods in any form.

 

4. Paypal will forward to the credit card company their findings about the claimed account abuse and that in fact this did not happen from all they can see.

 

5. The seller still has a legal right to claim the money back from the buyer with a lawyer (in case the 2nd charge back attempt ends in disadvantage of involved sellers, which is not yet decided here), because if a sale happens, it is a legal contract with legal real world consequences. So maybe those involved with a larger amount AND a legal insurance could check if it makes sense to go the legal route. Finding out his credit card company, real world data, get in touch with those through a lawyer if the insurance will cover it. For me personally this makes no sense with only 25 US$ involved,

but I would be willing to give a statement or testimony if anyone needs it for their case, about the info I have.

 

6. In Germany at least, you as a customer (buyer) need a special insurance for making them ask your money back at your card instritute, or hard evidence that it can not have been you authorising the transaction, before they will reclaim your money from any transaction.

 

So basically, a person could scam you this way with Paypal and a connected credit card, but only once in their lifetime. Which sort of is still disturbing.

But a relief on the other hand as this can not happen often. And within all my 10 years of fulltime selling virtual goods, this is the first time it happened to me.

And I have a track record of thousands of transactions on Paypal.

Will definately be even more careful in the future and take meticulous evidences for fulfilling my part of the transactions, as far as possible.

The evidence is still important as the first attempt through Paypal showed, but seems with some credit card institutions virtual goods are not covered at all.

So this may be something we need better laws in the real world at some point, because from what I see, the virtual goods market is growing at a fast pace.

It includes not just game currency, but online music, audio books, videos on demand, game downloads, etc.

 

Now I am not saying Neal must be a scammer, we do not know, and I am sorry for anyone having their account abused, but evidences found so far makes that conclusion look the most logical, with Paypal not finding any evidence of a security breach on his account and refunded the sellers over that claim.

 

So let's hope for the best here. Good luck everyone.

 

 

Edited by Smilingcat
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On 5/18/2016 at 6:52 PM, Polojordan said:

I have talked to Niru on TS, yes his real name is Neal and he's a nice guy... i'm sure this is a misunderstanding of some sort. Stalking someones personal life and posting pictures/videos everything about him on the forums is not right at all. I'm sorry there's an issue with paypal and your balance is in the negative now, but these issues should be dealt with privately. The chat moderators should have closed this long ago.

 

So since you're his friend... What's your verdict about round 2 of charging back? Has he been in contact at all since this post? Or has he magically disapeared out of our lives?

Edited by Alyeska

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Oh, what? Niru bought from me silvers for 33e and sleep powders for 10e. Both operations were on chargeback, my money were blocked for two weeks. I believed, that PayPal will recognize, that one scammer tries to hijack more people, but now I see, that one scammer with support of Paypal is successful. More than that - Paypal took 16euro as fee!!! Fee for what? Fee for allowing other people to take my money? Paypal didn't react to my letters and documents I sent them. I really consider what to do. I recommend to stick together and fist with help of Wurm staff try to change decision of PayPal. I know, that Wurm staff is not responsible for it and will not interfere into issues between two players, but this is aperently bigger case, at least with supporting logs or some affirmation regarding operations of player Niru.

I ask all victims of Niru - please contact me by email: ten_s_kytarou@seznam.cz with short information - how much money for what and when you get from Niru and how successful you have been with PayPal. If they are winners, please share your success, if they are loosers like me, please join in fight for justice. I seriously think about going to police and make a complaint.

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Your case is already resolved? Mine is still pending and yes, its fee included (fee depends on credit card company and not on paypal).

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1 hour ago, JirkaSoukup said:

Oh, what? Niru bought from me silvers for 33e and sleep powders for 10e. Both operations were on chargeback, my money were blocked for two weeks. I believed, that PayPal will recognize, that one scammer tries to hijack more people, but now I see, that one scammer with support of Paypal is successful. More than that - Paypal took 16euro as fee!!! Fee for what? Fee for allowing other people to take my money? Paypal didn't react to my letters and documents I sent them. I really consider what to do. I recommend to stick together and fist with help of Wurm staff try to change decision of PayPal. I know, that Wurm staff is not responsible for it and will not interfere into issues between two players, but this is aperently bigger case, at least with supporting logs or some affirmation regarding operations of player Niru.

I ask all victims of Niru - please contact me by email: ten_s_kytarou@seznam.cz with short information - how much money for what and when you get from Niru and how successful you have been with PayPal. If they are winners, please share your success, if they are loosers like me, please join in fight for justice. I seriously think about going to police and make a complaint.

It is not resolved yet, Paypal have just suspended the money until it is resolved, if you read the e-mail completely they say that if we are successful the money will be returned.

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41 minutes ago, Unknown said:

It is not resolved yet, Paypal have just suspended the money until it is resolved, if you read the e-mail completely they say that if we are successful the money will be returned.

Dear Martin Konarik,

One of your buyers opened a case for this transaction. This means that the buyer has asked their financial institution to reverse the money for this transaction.

We want to help you, and are disputing this case with your buyer's financial institution.

Here are the case details:

  • Buyer's name: Neal Hicks
  • Buyer's email: nealhicks@gmail.com
  • Buyer's transaction ID: 5BH72339TB213250T
  • Your transaction ID: 2TX224629G9522223
  • Transaction date: 25 April 2016
  • Transaction amount: 33,00 EUR
  • Disputed amount: 40,03 USD

The disputed amount has now been debited from your PayPal account because of the following reason(s):

  • This transaction was not marked as eligible for Seller Protection.

In addition, you have been debited a 16,00 EUR chargeback fee. 

If the financial institution decides the case in your favor, we will notify you that the payment will be returned to your PayPal account.

We understand that you may not have been expecting this case. If this case has made your PayPal account balance negative, please log in to your PayPal account and add money to your PayPal balance.

We'll email you if we need any further information from you.

Thank you for your patience during this process. We appreciate your business.

Sincerely,

PayPal

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They took everyone's money for now but the case is not over yet so we could get that money back. (I personally don't think we will win though so i have already counted it as a loss and paid my overage)  

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1 minute ago, Kegan said:

They took everyone's money for now but the case is not over yet so we could get that money back. (I personally don't think we will win though so i have already counted it as a loss and paid my overage)  

 

Planning for the worst as well, and have written the money off as a loss.

 

So... out of curiosity (directing this question at staff mostly) does the char(s) the player bought stuff for, still have any of the coins and/or items?

 

Offhand I doubt there's enough coin to cover everyone, since the purchased coin was likely quickly spent ingame to other people.

 

However, I wonder if there's anything recoverable for those who took the largest hits. Not that I can claim to have had the worst damage, with a relatively small 60ish Euros.

 

Not that I am saying the game's staff is obligated to re-imburse for this crap. Unfortunately, the game isn't designed in a manner to allow for third-party repo agents to reclaim items for non-payment.

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  • This transaction was not marked as eligible for Seller Protection.

and then that....

 

 If this case has made your PayPal account balance negative, please log in to your PayPal account and add money to your PayPal balance.

 

 

Just a quick warning - negative Balance will be punished after some time....

 

 

(cant say it often enough - get rid of paypal)

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1 hour ago, noermel said:
  • This transaction was not marked as eligible for Seller Protection.

and then that....

 

 If this case has made your PayPal account balance negative, please log in to your PayPal account and add money to your PayPal balance.

 

 

Just a quick warning - negative Balance will be punished after some time....

 

 

(cant say it often enough - get rid of paypal)

 

Best advise is to quickly even out the Paypal balance indeed.

 

Did anyone try Skrill yet and what other options beside Paypal would we have for RL money transactions that work worldwide and inexpensive?

If anyone has experience, please share. May as well learn something from this and find other viable options.

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Heard Skrill has a very poor reputation for both sellers and buyers, its sounds a bit worse then Paypals (That bad), also I stay away from UK based banking in general.

 

UK based banking pretty much has zero oversight especially with their bad eggs in Gibraltar, Caymens, and Isle of man and they tend to not follow EU Regulatory practices or US standards

 

Believe their is around 20+ Payment processors and Bit currenies you could use

 

Edited by enoofu

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Wtf, they were 20€, then they became 23, now another 16.

Not only i am being robbed of 20€, now for some reason they became 40.

I never had a chargeback on skrill. Many other goldsellers i knew of in the past said they never had a chargeback on skrill.

Il may be dangerous if you are a uncareful buyer but it's certainly better than paypal for sellers.

This is becoming embarassing for paypal, this is a seriously poorly executed scam attempt, yet we are still here, with even less money than before, and i'm seriously worried about the outcome.

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12 hours ago, Klaa said:

 

So... out of curiosity (directing this question at staff mostly) does the char(s) the player bought stuff for, still have any of the coins and/or items?

 

Offhand I doubt there's enough coin to cover everyone, since the purchased coin was likely quickly spent ingame to other people.

 

However, I wonder if there's anything recoverable for those who took the largest hits. Not that I can claim to have had the worst damage, with a relatively small 60ish Euros.

 

Not that I am saying the game's staff is obligated to re-imburse for this crap. Unfortunately, the game isn't designed in a manner to allow for third-party repo agents to reclaim items for non-payment.

 

We are keeping our options open pending the final outcome of this matter.  I will discuss with Code Club AB the possibilities that we might can do in this case.  All I can do at this time is confirm that there has been no unusual activity on this person's accounts with us before this situation occurred and we can see that the person at that IP received the items purchased and was in possession of them.

 

We do not know anymore about this situation than you do at this time, and we must wait and hope Paypal is successful at disputing this situation with the financial institution they appear to be in contact with.

 

/Enki (Head Game Master)

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10 hours ago, Smilingcat said:

Did anyone try Skrill yet and what other options beside Paypal would we have for RL money transactions that work worldwide and inexpensive?

 

I've tried Skrill before and found them to have horrible support, and it's very confusing. For example it asked for my birth date, but it wasn't clear that they were using the European way of expressing it (day before month) so the next time I had to log into it, I got an error when I put my birthday in again. Then it was a giant runaround trying to get the problem fixed, even though it was completely clear why it happened. I had to supply them with tons of forms of ID that would be enough for them to hijack my identity, and still it didn't work. There were more issues that I forget right now, but it's very hard to get them on the phone, they don't speak English well, their support hours are slight, and I lost money to them.

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15 minutes ago, LorraineJ said:

 

I've tried Skrill before and found them to have horrible support, and it's very confusing. For example it asked for my birth date, but it wasn't clear that they were using the European way of expressing it (day before month) so the next time I had to log into it, I got an error when I put my birthday in again. Then it was a giant runaround trying to get the problem fixed, even though it was completely clear why it happened. I had to supply them with tons of forms of ID that would be enough for them to hijack my identity, and still it didn't work. There were more issues that I forget right now, but it's very hard to get them on the phone, they don't speak English well, their support hours are slight, and I lost money to them.

Oh wonderful. So much about that alternative. Anything else out there? :ph34r:

Maybe setting up a PlayerAuctions account wasnt such a bad idea.

But who knows if they will be affected by credit card charge backs as well.

If credit card institutions do not accept delivery evidence for virtual goods ...

Edited by Smilingcat

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As I understand its the reason Cryptocurrency's (bitcoin)  were developed as their is no way to chargeback

Edited by enoofu

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So the same guy has a bunch of chargebacks for the same kind of charges.

 

If Paypal staff are even basically intelligent, they'll see the obvious.

 

However if they favor this guy, I'll go out of my way to make sure that anyone I know or meet does not use Paypal anymore as this whole situation perfectly qualifies as an excellent way to measure their reliability.

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Paypal did honor the sales and we won that case but this is not Paypal doing this second one it is the CC company so it is up to them what happens. Paypal will do what they can and that is what they are doing now but in the end it is up to the card holder what happens.

 

I guess you can think of it as Paypal has a charge back case and if they lose their case with the CC company then they will take the money back from us and add in a fee for the trouble, lol 

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I guess the savest way is curently some kind of bitcoin transaction but... nothing is really save :rolleyes:

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Bitcoins and stuff is nice, but how many buyers have that and know how to work with that - paypal is defacto standard. Never heard of any other form of payment here on forums WTA/WTS posts.

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Some days ago I've seen a post in trade chat, mentioning about payment over Steam.

 

Does anyone dealt with it?

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10 hours ago, Enki said:

We are keeping our options open pending the final outcome of this matter.  I will discuss with Code Club AB the possibilities that we might can do in this case.  All I can do at this time is confirm that there has been no unusual activity on this person's accounts with us before this situation occurred and we can see that the person at that IP received the items purchased and was in possession of them.

We do not know anymore about this situation than you do at this time, and we must wait and hope Paypal is successful at disputing this situation with the financial institution they appear to be in contact with.

/Enki (Head Game Master)

It is good to hear that we are not lonely victims in this situation. Thank you for your words. I am working on letter to PayPal. I will cc: it to Rolf and I would like to send it to you as well, Enki. What email can I use plese?

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