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Sold silver through paypal to Niru, now he disputes it

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8 hours ago, Kegan said:

I guess you can think of it as Paypal has a charge back case and if they lose their case with the CC company then they will take the money back from us and add in a fee for the trouble, lol 

 

That's the most disgusting part for me, if they have decided and know that we are right, why on earth they should forcibly take another 16€ from us? for doing what? For "defending me"? The cc company has already added an extra 2,70€ on the chargeback amount so it's just paypal taking those money without asking anything (and we aren't the ones opening the chargebacks)

On the first place it's not a single chargeback, it's more like 30, so they will take 16€ from each one of us, that makes like 500€ of fees for a single case, in which i'm not even sure if they are actually doing anything or just writing nice words to us , copypasting our messages and let the CC company decide.

I know there are people who have been hit for several hundred $, but at least they have sold items for hundreds, i'm ending up wasting almost 40€ on a 20€ transaction which is making me really mad, i had already kinda gave up on those 20€ but i seriously don't wan't to waste another 16, this is an embarassing way of sucking up money from me for a supposed service which is actually a "mass service" on dozens people getting scammed at the same time. Seems like i can't even refuse it and let the money go for lost. They will rob me of another 16€ no matter what if the case is lost, and this is pathetic to me.
 

Edited by Davih

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I removed my banking information from PayPal and will only use it with my CC to pay Rolf premium time. My CC can then do battle in a dispute since it seems you can roundabout PayPal with your CC.

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2 hours ago, Davih said:

 

That's the most disgusting part for me, if they have decided and know that we are right, why on earth they should forcibly take another 16€ from us? for doing what? For "defending me"? The cc company has already added an extra 2,70€ on the chargeback amount so it's just paypal taking those money without asking anything (and we aren't the ones opening the chargebacks)

On the first place it's not a single chargeback, it's more like 30, so they will take 16€ from each one of us, that makes like 500€ of fees for a single case, in which i'm not even sure if they are actually doing anything or just writing nice words to us , copypasting our messages and let the CC company decide.

I know there are people who have been hit for several hundred $, but at least they have sold items for hundreds, i'm ending up wasting almost 40€ on a 20€ transaction which is making me really mad, i had already kinda gave up on those 20€ but i seriously don't wan't to waste another 16, this is an embarassing way of sucking up money from me for a supposed service which is actually a "mass service" on dozens people getting scammed at the same time. Seems like i can't even refuse it and let the money go for lost. They will rob me of another 16€ no matter what if the case is lost, and this is pathetic to me.
 

It pretty normal to charge for Chargeback and it usually is a high price, been like that even in the phyiscal Checks day

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4 minutes ago, enoofu said:

It pretty normal to charge for Chargeback and it usually is a high price, been like that even in the phyiscal Checks day

Yeah but why would i pay for that if that's an "authorized access" problem? I could get that if i scammed someone and/or failed to ship and item or did anything wrong at all, but this way it's just pretty much ridiculous

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8 hours ago, Audrel said:

I removed my banking information from PayPal and will only use it with my CC to pay Rolf premium time. My CC can then do battle in a dispute since it seems you can roundabout PayPal with your CC.

 

Sadly it isn't letting us do that because we have a negative balance. Paypal is about to get blocked altogether directly by the bank, lol

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2 hours ago, Alyeska said:

 

Sadly it isn't letting us do that because we have a negative balance. Paypal is about to get blocked altogether directly by the bank, lol

That may not be enough, you might have to close your bank account.

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Ok, that was unexpected, i replyed directly to the last mail paypal sent me (the semi-automated one from services@paypal) with some random ranting and rage outburst about the fact that they were going to take 16€ from me for a 20€ transaction in which i was obviously right, i thretened them to withdraw all my money from the account, closing it and stop using paypal forever because that was just outrageous and ridiculous.

To my absolute surprise, they answered directly to that mail (i even wrote that in my native language) saying that they had refunded me the 16€ and they will cover that expense for me.

I've never hoped for something like that to be honest, lol, not sure why they decided to do it, if they are sure about winning the case or if they just calculated the risk that i would actually withdraw all the money and close the account (i have like 1,2k left there)

Edited by Davih
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Paypal is not some non-profit organization, I think with enough pressure they would be smart to come good on the transactions and take there fight to the credit card company to get back the lost funds. It should not fall on the pay-pal user to do this, there deal is with pay-pal and not with the credit card company.

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They have not charged me any extra fees it is just the $50 that was sent to me from him. Now the information on the case file has $51.75 but they did not charge me that..well not yet anyway.  I guess it might be different for other countries but here in the US on my case I have not seen any extra fees yet. 

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So if we remove our banking information from paypal, funds wont get deducted right?

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1 hour ago, Hashirama said:

So if we remove our banking information from paypal, funds wont get deducted right?

 

I would make sure to talk to the bank after removing the info to make sure they wont let paypal have access to your bank account. You can delete all you want from your paypal account but I bet they still have the info on file.

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I called my bank and have barred Paypal from withdrawing

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I have had the exact same thing happen to me a year ago on a different sandbox called "Eternal Lands", the whole exact deal with two charge backs and fees, in the end i did not win the case because as specified already in here, CC companies currently do not support virtual trading, which sadly is likely what is going to happen here as well.. :unsure:

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Lol so I lost 15eu to niru and then another 16eu to the dispute leaving me with negative balance... might as well never log into that account again

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On 6/9/2016 at 8:42 AM, Audrel said:

I removed my banking information from PayPal and will only use it with my CC to pay Rolf premium time. My CC can then do battle in a dispute since it seems you can roundabout PayPal with your CC.

 

I should add that I was not scammed in this. I was just following to see how PayPal responded. I don't like their response.

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39 minutes ago, Audrel said:

 

I should add that I was not scammed in this. I was just following to see how PayPal responded. I don't like their response.

 

Originally Paypal responded well. It was only when he tried again with the credit card company that they started these "fees." The idea of credit card companies not supporting virtual trading is bullsh_t. What the hell is Wall Street after all? It's not like people drive up with pork bellies and gold and oil. What is online advertisement? There are too many "virtual" goods in the world now to have this policy. I think if he was ripping me off, I'd be contacting the police in his town, plus the credit card company trying to charge back, and I'd be asking Paypal if they're going to pull the account of this credit card company just as they would to an individual if they were trying to scam by using Paypal. They already investigated and know that this chargeback is not valid.

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How can paypal get away with shifting the blame on a user when they are the ones who verify that the users are the owners of their bank account and credit cards?

 

To avoid this in the future I would have to use bitcoin or sell a physical item like a piece of paper with a drawing on it and mail it at the post office and save the receipt as proof of shipment?

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4 hours ago, Audrel said:

 

I should add that I was not scammed in this. I was just following to see how PayPal responded. I don't like their response.

The response I've seen here from PayPal is actually an improvement in their dealings with virtual goods. I do and will continue to use PayPal, but they don't have any banking info for me. I do have an closed PayPal account from 15 years ago that has a -$600 balance, though they have never tried to collect. I managed to remove most of my money before they charged me back, fortunately I didn't (and don't still) keep a PayPal balance. Any transaction that can be reversed is subject to this kind of scam, so I have contemplated only using Bit-coin or something, but I haven't looked into it.

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34 minutes ago, Tsetse said:

How can paypal get away with shifting the blame on a user when they are the ones who verify that the users are the owners of their bank account and credit cards?

 

To avoid this in the future I would have to use bitcoin or sell a physical item like a piece of paper with a drawing on it and mail it at the post office and save the receipt as proof of shipment?

Because Paypal has to be friendly with the Credit Cards and banks which is the source of their money 

 

Just be careful  since Paypal will go after his account,probably by debt collection for their fee's if the Credit Card company rules in his favor

 

Plus any of you guys that now owe Paypal and don't pay

 

 

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IMO, how this should play out if the credit card company sides with Niru is...

Paypal has already judged in favour of all the Wurm players. They should have to stand by that. If the credit card company says they will not pay Paypal because of some reason, well that's too bad for PP. PP should have to "eat" the loss, they've already concluded no wrong has been done. For PP to flip flop on their ruling would prove they are not a company to be trusted or used.

 

To add to this convo, if any of you asked Niru to send the payment to you, and send it as a "gift", then PP has no right to take that "gift" back no matter the outcome. IF the credit card company claims the card was stolen and then gifts sent by the card thief, then they will have to prove the card was stolen. That opens the door for Niru (if he used his dads acct), to be charged in the crime. Daddy is not likely to pursue charges against his son.

From now on when selling things here via PP, always tell your customer to send as a gift so they cannot refute it. That said, I'm willing to bet that in the past there have been cases where "gifts" were revoked by PP, but that is likely a much more slippery slope to refute by the buyer.

 

Again, best of luck winning this, hope you all do.

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All my paypal transactions are gifts - I dont want to pay fees :)

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The more I think about the idea of credit card companies not honoring virtual goods, the stupider it plays out. How can Netflix be worth 32.9 billion dollars if everyone can just charge back their purchases? How can a persistent character on a video game be treated differently than a bunch of movie pixels you watch? Can everyone charge back the $60 games they buy on Sony Playstation? It's virtual goods, right? By this logic, we all should be gambling in virtual casinos every waking moment. If you don't win, just charge it all back. It was just a quick click on a pixel, right? It's not even there tomorrow.

 

And what Gumbo said about gifts is so utterly right. How can you have a chargeback on a gift??

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29 minutes ago, LorraineJ said:

The more I think about the idea of credit card companies not honoring virtual goods, the stupider it plays out. How can Netflix be worth 32.9 billion dollars if everyone can just charge back their purchases? How can a persistent character on a video game be treated differently than a bunch of movie pixels you watch? Can everyone charge back the $60 games they buy on Sony Playstation? It's virtual goods, right? By this logic, we all should be gambling in virtual casinos every waking moment. If you don't win, just charge it all back. It was just a quick click on a pixel, right? It's not even there tomorrow.

 

And what Gumbo said about gifts is so utterly right. How can you have a chargeback on a gift??

 

  I think you are misunderstanding some items.  Credit card companies do recognize virtual goods as items having value.  The only issue is that unlike physical goods that can be mailed/tracked are easier to identify and regulate.  In this case due to IP/Privacy laws, we have no proof that the buyer actually received the items.  This is where virtual goods and physical items separate themselves in disputes such as this.

 

  Netflix isn't a virtual company.  Revenue also doesn't directly represent net worth or it's value in being traded publicly.  Netflix has infrastructure/rights in over 100 countries.  On top of being a production company that makes high equality content.  Also Netflix is a monthly/continual service, not a virtual good or item that you are buying.  I know the point you're trying to make but it isn't the same thing.  Netflix is a very tangible company.

 

  The issue with virtual items is that you have to distinguish a clear chain of buying and selling.  You have to guarantee that Mike who lives at X place and uses X credit card is actually real.  PlayerAuctions a website for middle man trading of largely unprotected virtual items hit the nail on the head.  They require all people to register when buying/selling proving their address/Photo ID being held by the person.  In this way they will win any dispute and every dispute as they can provide the IP/Geo-Location as well as prove that "Mike" did in fact buy the goods.  

 

  Credit card companies do actually investigate credit card fraud.  While they do not often do small transactions.  If it's rampant/consistent they will investigate.  You can be charged with fraud as well for falsely reporting them.  Your credit score could be tanked by a credit company or you could be prosecuted.  Either way I don't suggest doing it.  How ever there are certain stores that allow charge backs within a time period for virtual items.  Though these do not pertain to any credit card company.

 

  Unauthorized Charge is the only way to initiate a charge back on a gift.  Fortunately for us in this situation.  He will have little evidence to go on if peoples assumptions are right.  If he is a young man who spent money he didn't have and didn't bother to properly hide himself he's doomed.  If it's a child of the real paypal owner.  He'll still be held accountable and charged as the amount exceeds a felony level.  Then let's not also forget that it's identity theft / most likely forgery as he didn't have permission to use the card for those purchases.  The charges will take 1-3 months to be adequately disputed apparently.

 

  Either way Niru was dumb enough to buy WU on a Steam account that's over 8 years old.  I contacted Steam and got them involved with the charge backs.  In this case I wanted to establish history as a reference point to confirm the identity of the buying party.  Steam does fight the charge backs that happen outside of the Steam store.  So unless Niru has no associate with the real Neil Hicks.  This should be a win for any seller.

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I'm sorry I also forgot to mention.  Anyone with a negative Paypal balance call Paypal up and ask them to set it to 0 until the case is actually resolved.  You already won one case with Paypal against him.  They are ruling in your favor this round and will work with you to keep you using their service.

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