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Sold silver through paypal to Niru, now he disputes it

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8 hours ago, AlphaMaleAD said:

I sure as heck won't be putting money In if people can have paypal and the credit card companies dispute everything and the game owner can't or won't supply objective evidence.

 

Who ever said the "game owner" would not assist and help with all questions from PP or otherwise?  We would be more than happy to help if we got official requests from PP, banks or otherwise. I find it unfair you are somehow blaming the game, when GM's have spent the better part of 4-5 days chasing all this info to the ends of the earth.  Should PP or a bank ask for info, we have info, and it will be up to Rolf to release that if he gets an official request.  So far there has been none, afaik.

 

We cannot just open the floodgates and start giving players server transaction log dumps and internal information. Privacy policies and laws do not allow it, and we don't need people being vigilantes.  I assure you, as Enki did 2x already, all assets are being accounted for and locked down in an effort to manage damage control.  It was the first thing we did in this case, and I am stunningly proud in how the whole GM team got on board with this mess to limit further damage.

 

We so far have not heard from Paypal, any banks, nor the accused player in this case even once  Sort it out with your bank and paypal, first and foremost.  We cannot do that for you.  If they need detailed information on the larger issue, they are more than welcome to contact us.

 

If that doesn't work for you, we are here for you and we will do our best to sort this issue, despite the fact that it has been stated 1000 times that all such transactions are at your own discretion. 

 

Don't pin this on staff being lackadaisical, for we are busting butts and literally losing sleep chasing all this mess. There are GM's losing worktime, RL wages, to chase this mess.  Gm's spending time chasing numbers when they should have been out playing ball with their children.  We are doing backflips chasing this whole mess, and we have no magic tools available to us to simply look up any of this stuff.  That part of the equation falls on our two very competent servers guys, and it is often a long, arduous process to chase items back in time.

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yea  dont  attack staff, this isnt there  fault nor  can code club  be held  responsible  for this, EULA  clear  states  do it  at  your own risk.   The  gms  are  doing there best  and as much as they can here.  they cant  give these people there money back but they can atleast lock the  stuff  down and  return it  should  the  charge back succeed, and to me thats  better then nothing  cause  atleast  they can resell it to try n get  there  money back

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2 hours ago, Shalbriri said:

 

Who ever said the "game owner" would not assist and help with all questions from PP or otherwise?  We would be more than happy to help if we got official requests from PP, banks or otherwise. I find it unfair you are somehow blaming the game, when GM's have spent the better part of 4-5 days chasing all this info to the ends of the earth.  Should PP or a bank ask for info, we have info, and it will be up to Rolf to release that if he gets an official request.  So far there has been none, afaik.

 

We cannot just open the floodgates and start giving players server transaction log dumps and internal information. Privacy policies and laws do not allow it, and we don't need people being vigilantes.  I assure you, as Enki did 2x already, all assets are being accounted for and locked down in an effort to manage damage control.  It was the first thing we did in this case, and I am stunningly proud in how the whole GM team got on board with this mess to limit further damage.

 

We so far have not heard from Paypal, any banks, nor the accused player in this case even once  Sort it out with your bank and paypal, first and foremost.  We cannot do that for you.  If they need detailed information on the larger issue, they are more than welcome to contact us.

 

If that doesn't work for you, we are here for you and we will do our best to sort this issue, despite the fact that it has been stated 1000 times that all such transactions are at your own discretion. 

 

Don't pin this on staff being lackadaisical, for we are busting butts and literally losing sleep chasing all this mess. There are GM's losing worktime, RL wages, to chase this mess.  Gm's spending time chasing numbers when they should have been out playing ball with their children.  We are doing backflips chasing this whole mess, and we have no magic tools available to us to simply look up any of this stuff.  That part of the equation falls on our two very competent servers guys, and it is often a long, arduous process to chase items back in time.

This. In my dealing so far gms have been working hard and fast on it. I really do not understand why would anyone say a bad word in this case contex about the gms

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10 hours ago, zorako said:

I wonder if the guy's premium payment paid to Codeclub was disputed too.

Yes, Codeclub is a direct victim here too.

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16 minutes ago, Hordern said:

Yes, Codeclub is a direct victim here too.

 

Lol he did Rolf for prem money too? Spose thats good cuz that means Rolf will be directly involved to help us prove this guy is a scammer.

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4 hours ago, Gumbo said:

Sorry to hear this is still going on, hope you all win your cases. I mentioned earlier that I made 30s total from dealings with Niru. Well for me that is what is known as bad money. I don't want it, so will donate back here to the cause. Not sure how this will all work out, but when the credit card company gets involved, it's never good for online sellers. Consider the 30s a donation to any fund that gets started.

Good luck.

Hey that should have come to my mind first.

I gained around 20s from transactions with Niru, if claims go south and a fund is being raised that amount is going into that hat too.

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I personally want to be finished and done with Wurm Online, this is the only thing really tying me back into the game.

 

Any gold given back to me by the Game Masters will be donated to the PMK Empire of Mol Rehan.

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15 hours ago, zorako said:

I wonder if the guy's premium payment paid to Codeclub was disputed too.

Hahahahahahaha  I love your mind Z!  I was wondering the same thing.  This whole escapade is serious and very sad though.  We are such a small community and to have this happen really sucks.  I'm also wondering since he did this over a period of time, if he didn't also sell much of the goods he 'bought' and then disputed.  That'd be a real double-dipper scam. 

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lol  I wonder if paypal has noticed that this guy has so many chargebacks, requested, and to differant people. i'm sure they will  notice something it up, and he will most likely get a perma ban from paypal. 

 

Hope he's not in the US.  as they jump on to the fraud court for this kinda of behavoir and he can face charges, paypal is like a bank,  put fake money in an envelope and deposit it. use that money before they find out, next day accounts locked and credit score takes the hits,  the credit card companies too, get involved when they see their clients are using charge backs too often.

 

I can't find that web site on fraud for the US that i saw before, but it was a huge scary chunk of don't mess with the them. 

 

anyone as a victim of this guy contact paypal, and sent them links to this forum on how many are being scammed?  i'm sure they'd like to see thats there is a lot of folks involved in it. of coarse they can never disclose info. but at least if they know about all this, they would look into it.

 

if his name gets banned from paypal for good, life better for others, in future games, ebay , ect

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If the credit card company reports to PayPal that the user was using a stolen credit card, that paypal account will most likely be banned.

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19 hours ago, Shalbriri said:

 

Who ever said the "game owner" would not assist and help with all questions from PP or otherwise?  We would be more than happy to help if we got official requests from PP, banks or otherwise. I find it unfair you are somehow blaming the game, when GM's have spent the better part of 4-5 days chasing all this info to the ends of the earth.  Should PP or a bank ask for info, we have info, and it will be up to Rolf to release that if he gets an official request.  So far there has been none, afaik.

 

We cannot just open the floodgates and start giving players server transaction log dumps and internal information. Privacy policies and laws do not allow it, and we don't need people being vigilantes.  I assure you, as Enki did 2x already, all assets are being accounted for and locked down in an effort to manage damage control.  It was the first thing we did in this case, and I am stunningly proud in how the whole GM team got on board with this mess to limit further damage.

 

We so far have not heard from Paypal, any banks, nor the accused player in this case even once  Sort it out with your bank and paypal, first and foremost.  We cannot do that for you.  If they need detailed information on the larger issue, they are more than welcome to contact us.

 

If that doesn't work for you, we are here for you and we will do our best to sort this issue, despite the fact that it has been stated 1000 times that all such transactions are at your own discretion. 

 

Don't pin this on staff being lackadaisical, for we are busting butts and literally losing sleep chasing all this mess. There are GM's losing worktime, RL wages, to chase this mess.  Gm's spending time chasing numbers when they should have been out playing ball with their children.  We are doing backflips chasing this whole mess, and we have no magic tools available to us to simply look up any of this stuff.  That part of the equation falls on our two very competent servers guys, and it is often a long, arduous process to chase items back in time.

 

On 5/23/2016 at 7:29 PM, AlphaMaleAD said:

I understand that wurm doesn't endorse or isn't legally liable for rl trading or what have you. What I want to know is does code Club stand for its paying base by providing neutral logs of server transactions to third parties? Showing they either made trades or did not make trades between parties.

 

 

I sure as heck won't be putting money In if people can have paypal and the credit card companies dispute everything and the game owner can't or won't supply objective evidence.

 

*unaffiliated party leaves the soap box *

Appreciate your answer and explanation as it fully answered my query, but you didn't quote my full statement where I asked the companies stance on the matter.

 

I'm not pinning anything on anyone, and I'm allowed to make my own choice where I put my money depending on the companies stance (which as you have outlined, is to be forthcoming with response to queries from financial institutions).

 

Thank you for the explanation, the 30 likes on the post validate the response as a necessary and useful one!

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13 hours ago, Bibbidyboop said:

I personally want to be finished and done with Wurm Online, this is the only thing really tying me back into the game.

 

Any gold given back to me by the Game Masters will be donated to the PMK Empire of Mol Rehan.

 

If you are quitting Wurm because of this type of issue, be aware that this happens in every game and PayPal's stance has always been proof of item delivery (like USPS signed receipt). They do not consider the sale of virtual goods in the same realm as "real" items. There are 3 ways to avoid this issue, don't play any online games, don't sell online game items (including accounts), use an irreversible transaction medium (bitcoin, etc).

 

My first experience with this was over 10 years ago in EQ. It has only gotten worse, and will continue as long as these transactions fall into grey/black market conditions.

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I also sold 90s to Niru and I am having the same issues as posted here .. if anyone needs me to do anything other than what I already gave paypal message me :P can't really be bothered to read this whole thread

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I too seem to have this case re-open again :(

No message to my wife so far (she sold her deed and accout) to same person.

I sold 1g for 95€ and thats paypal now have taken hold of.

Going to send this forum link to paypal and also some logs where i sold the gold.

 

EDIT:

Send the reply to paypal, i added chat logs and screenshot of the trade. I als included this forum thread to the message.

Here are the paypal details of my case if someone needs:

 

Here are the details of this case: 

  • Buyer's name: Neal Hicks
  • Buyer's email: *hidden*
  • Buyer's transaction ID: 9G415382XK779560N
  • Your transaction ID:43D72244DK488121E
  • Transaction date: 12 March 2016
  • Transaction amount: 95,00 EUR
  • Disputed amount: 113,60 USD

 

 

Edited by Pandalet
Moderation edit to remove personal info

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Hello ... I am the next victim. I sold him 10x sleep powder - personaly delivered for 10e and 33s for 33e. I really didn't know, that someone can ask money back after a month - how can PayPal allow it? Is it serious organization? Someone pay you for service or goods, you give him something (doesn't matter if it is virtual object or real service like cutting hairs) and he after month will claim the money back? And who will return you the things you sold him or time you vasted doing some service for him? I earned this by hardwork in Wurm (digging dirt, making bricks, selling rares, atc.) and I use this money for paying premium for me and Camelie. Now the payment is close and the money are blocked.

 

I hope that the case will be closed by PayPal with no harm to tons of their customers who were trying to be cheated by one scammer?. This is email I sent to PayPal before I was directed to this forum:

 

Hello, 

 
this is second time he tries to claim the money back. Please look at history, you opened and closed this case alreaddy. How long will I be bothered by this case? Is this possible? He bought something from me, how could he want return money?  Is PayPal so unsafe that the customer never know, who will claim the money back? Even the amount is not big, I spend lot of time to earn the money.
Please infom me about this case, if it is endless. As I see it, Neal Hicks is cheater or second reason - the child who used PayPal account of parents. In any case that is not my responsibility.
 
I put mail nealhicks@gmail.com to Cc:, why did he not contacted me, if he thinks there was something wrong? I suppose that I am not only one victim of his chargeback attempts.
 
Hope you have some mechanism to defend your customers against cheaters.
 
Sorry for my English, it is not perfect, I am from Czech Republic.
 
Martin Konarik

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So it seems that even some from Czech Republic (as me) was hit 2nd time. I still don't know why mine transactions were not disputed 2nd time too (I'm still in fear when I see new email notification).

 

Its part of Paypal customer protection and seems you cannot do anything about it. But as first dispute directly on paypal was closed in our favor, I'm confident, then even second dispute (credit card company against paypal) will be closed in our favor too.

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If a Credit card was use for purchases , should the bank or CC company not get involved here?

Just looking at all the transaction done in such a short time then charge back shows it was planed scam to me.

The bank and credit company are mainly to blame here also , since they should have stop this spending spree.

In Canada  if it dosent look right , like the amount and to were its going they call you and freeze it till they get a answer.

In this case so many different people and country's a bank will call the card owner , aka his dad.

So i find that his dad coming along saying he had no clue if this is the case is pure bull crap.

Edited by Damascus
forgot part

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Its his credit card (or that credit card linked to his paypal). And this 2nd round of disputes is that he disputes payments done by his credit card through paypal, when he did not had his luck 1st time disputing it on paypal directly.

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Someone spending over 5000 Euro in this game within the last 2 months and then disputing it, sounds like a big scam. Wonder where all the items ended up.

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Below is my reaction to PayPal ... My English is not very good, but I hope they will understand. 

Wurm is great game and I like its economy system. Of course the difference between (1month premium = 10 silver, 1 month premium = 8 euro, 10 silvers =16 euro) creates space for business, which is not bad until unresponsible people come to place. What I really miss in Wurm is HISTORY OF BANK TRANSACTION. I think that it could make things clear. Now if you CoD  to more players something, you have no feedback who already payed. In that history should be withdraws and deposits, money from CoDs with names of players, sellings to deed token should be sumarized to day-sum. Hope devs will add it soon.

 

Quote

Hello. 

The buyer bought 33 silvers from me in Wurm game. Before I sent him the money, he sent me 33 euro to my PayPal account - it was not my encashment, he had to send it manualy which you can check for sure. If you need any proof he really got 33 silvers in game, you have to contact Code Club AB (http://www.codeclub.se), we, players, don't have access to transaction history unfortunately.   

As I see, I am not only victim of the buyer - he bought things from many players and now tries to get money back, please visit this site: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/141338-sold-silver-through-paypal-to-niru-now-he-disputes-it/&page=9#comment-1454380

This is my important comment there regarding your service:
I really didn't know, that someone can ask money back after a month - how can PayPal allow it? Is it serious organization? Someone pay you for service or goods, you give him something (doesn't matter if it is virtual object or real service like cutting hairs) and he after month will claim the money back? And who will return you the things you sold him or time you vasted doing some service for him? I earned this by hardwork in Wurm (digging dirt, making bricks, selling rares, atc.) and I use this money for paying premium for me and Camelie. Now the payment is close and the money are blocked.
I hope that the case will be closed by PayPal with no harm to tons of their customers who were trying to be cheated by one scammer?

I believe, that the fact, that Neal Hicks tries to get back money from many accounts and he didn't try to contact the sellers by email is clear evidence, that he is a cheater. Please protect your honest customers against cheaters.

Regards 
Martin Konarik

 

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Doesnt make any sense though, the money was originaly from his account spent over a timelapse of 2 months on in game items right? Now he wants it back as a way to scam the community?

There is no way he could believe that he would be able to do this and still keep all the items in the game or even his game account and keep on playing with unique items after this incident. Obviously he should know that doing this (disputing the charges) will lead to the loss of his wurm items and/or account. 

 

So either 1: He would risk all this money in order to "mess with ppl" and hope the items gets banned and lost and he havent lost a penny scamming the community on items and money,

or 2: his dad wants his money back and doesnt care what happens to his sons in game account in the process. option 2 sounds more of a logical assumption.

Edited by Foxzer

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For real,
the one and only time Paypal seemed to be behaving decently, lol.

Sorry if i ever doubted of you, paypal.

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Foxzer,

Could be buyer remorse

or he could of planned to resell the items also

 

Quote

I really didn't know, that someone can ask money back after a month - how can PayPal allow it?

 

Part of the  Truth in Lending Act  that credit cards companies follow in the US

Depending on Credit Card and your local laws can be up to 1 year

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Then he would resell them before he disputed the money back on paypal,

since then he wouldnt raise suspicion having to risk getting banned with the items still in his account right?

3 minutes ago, enoofu said:

Foxzer,

Could be buyer remorse

or he could of planned to resell the items also

 

 

Part of the  Truth in Lending Act  that credit cards companies follow in the US

Depending on Credit Card and your local laws can be up to 1 year

 

Edited by Foxzer

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11 minutes ago, Foxzer said:

So either 1: He would risk all this money in order to "mess with ppl" and hope the items gets banned and lost and he havent lost a penny scamming the community on items and money,

or 2: his dad wants his money back and doesnt care what happens to his sons in game account in the process. option 2 sounds more of a logical assumption.

 

I am thinking it is number 2 also but if that is the case then the father either claims that it was not him or his son or turn in his son. The paypal account was verified so there had to be checks to make sure that the paypal account was the person that applied. So yes i think it is defiantly a father and son deal. 

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