The Bitter Pill.

[Hashirama 870]

1 minute ago, Slickshot said:

On a PvE server only the mayor of a deed can successfully catapult structures.  Even if you're a villager or ally with permissions you are still unable to catapult structures.  You'll consistently get the "you just seemed to miss" whatever it is you're aiming at, and you'll never land a hit.

 

there, then that answers ecrir's question

[icbash 352]

11 minutes ago, Hashirama said:

Clearly you and the MR guys do not know anything.
Kratos had permissions for alliance members to be able to destroy buildings. My alt was able to bash an entire wall and catapult too caus duh permissions. (as it was an ally member and not villager)
It might be bugged or not, but in that scenario it was mayor's fault alone. 

Chaos is a pvp server, therefore "hunted" bugged status is the root cause.
Also before you take my name you should know more about the game, people can effectively use trolls to bash other people's house. It is very easy to accomplish (but only works for unfinished houses), that wouldnt likely be how icbash lost his stuff but there are many ways to break in, just saying. Troll one is the only one I know so far.
 

there it is my perms on my deed setup so no one could destroy but another part of the alliance had a perm wrong that allowed stuff to happen on my deed? thats not how perms are post to work. Bug 1!!!   and what deed is kratos part of ? im thinking  its part of my old alliance. that i was not part of  at the time this happend bug number 2!!!

 

[Chakron 1,025]

I understand that you are upset, but do you have specific settings that someone could use to attempt to recreate this "bug"?

[icbash 352]

4 minutes ago, Chakron said:

I understand that you are upset, but do you have specific settings that someone could use to attempt to recreate this "bug"?

[griper 537]

The devs should be more intetested in this incident. Just for finding potential bugs.

[Hashirama 870]

26 minutes ago, icbash said:

there it is my perms on my deed setup so no one could destroy but another part of the alliance had a perm wrong that allowed stuff to happen on my deed? thats not how perms are post to work. Bug 1!!!   and what deed is kratos part of ? im thinking  its part of my old alliance. that i was not part of  at the time this happend bug number 2!!!

 

 

Kratos is an MR village on chaos, so its in the MR chaos alliance.
If all the permissions were in order and hopefully no one took advantage of your trust, I would assume it could be a new emerging bug on PvE. Because catapulting and all that is possible on chaos because of broken Hunted status, hadn't heard of such an incident on pve yet (till no ofcourse).

Edited April 23, 2016 by Hashirama

[Erlindur 63]

Since the Cast Deity Spells flag is open for all, maybe we are looking in the wrong place. This can be a creative use or exploit of a spell instead of a permission bug. The catapult could be simply there to confuse. 

[Odynn 2,248]

piles of shards say something else though, but normally catapulting a house on freedom do no damage to it.

[Erlindur 63]

2 minutes ago, Odynn said:

piles of shards say something else though, but normally catapulting a house on freedom do no damage to it.

or maybe a combination. A spell that bugs permissions somehow, allowing the use of a catapult. I'm a noob here, I have no idea about spells in this game. It is just some debugging thoughts.

 

[Alexgopen 2,376]

8 hours ago, icbash said:

May of you people may know me. Some may hate me, some may think of me as a friend.

 

That's not the point of this thread. The point of this post is to bring awareness as to why wurm is failing its players and why people like me are quitting.

 

(Before continuing, note that this took place on a Freedom deed. Not chaos nor epic.)

 

On the March 23rd I log into my main after working a long 80-hour work week to get some relaxing time in before bed.

 

I logged into a war-zone. Gates and fences in key areas of my deed had been catapulted down. And before you ask I had all "destroy" permissions off for everyone - even my alts could do not this on deed. All barded and shod horses were dead and gone with all gear. Warehouse cleaned out.(which, I admit, might not have been 100% locked down so what was lost out of there is moot).

 

But the fact that someone could bring down walls, gates and even bridge on-deed no matter what perms say. Really bugged me.

 

After playing cat and mouse in order to talk a to GM - a really nice GM - the burden was put on me to find how this happened. I'm sorry but I cannot look at logs from server or get remote ID. That ticket is still open today.

 

To this day stuff on deed is likely still not safe. No-one in a position of authority has found how this expolt works and no-one who does know it has brought it forward.

 

I wish Wurm the best of luck, but you are failing your paying player base.

 

Like many of you, I had a lot of hope for Wurm and what it really could be.

 

 

i believe it's simple

 

get kos'ed and kill the templar

 

but then again i havent played on freedom for a long time so i could be wrong, maybe they even spammed wrath of mag or something with a hole in the spell permissions

 

edit: after reading more of the thread, wrath of mag to destroy walls (since you have it allowed) and leaving a decoy cata and shards looks plausible

Edited April 23, 2016 by Alexgopen

[Alexgopen 2,376]

removed

Edited April 23, 2016 by Alexgopen

[Mordraug 2,542]

Of course if he somehow manages to get the DB, finds out who did it, then retaliates, HE gets banned for "griefing"...  

 

Said it before I'll say it again, it's not WU that's gonna kill WO.

[Verotika 90]

This is really upsetting. If server logs don't track this type of thing, hopefully someone can and will develop some code to improve logging and help GM's search events with keywords. I think it is crazy that a GM can't go in and search server history to find out exactly what happened. It all seems black and white. Or at least it should be. I'm really sorry Icbash.

 

It is very strange to hear conflicting reports of players getting banned for some things that are found out somehow and others things remain in the dark. The way the game is designed may be the reason for this, but definitely makes me not want to spend money on things in Wurm. Very odd indeed.

[Toecutter 331]

I was once a GM  back in 2000-2002  for a  ISP bunch of servers for half life mods where many people  cheated with programs or did not play nice so to speak  it's Sad that GM's follow strict laws here in Wurm based on the "it's a sandbox" theory time and time and time again commonsense would prevail in these circumstances. And i have seen so many people  leave wurm for this and similar reasons the only people who seem to win are the Griefers and exploiters i am not saying  GM's don't do a good job even CA's i am simply saying i think their hands are tied  when it comes to decision making and that's not their fault.

 

I am sorry Icbash  i would be pissed off too that a system has failed you and the only help you get is asking you to find out yourself what happened :((

[Lancelot 765]

It is a ruiner when this sort of thing happens, but I have seen it before on freedom deeds.

[Valdor 1,426]

Without the knowledge of what really happened and only having the story version from the OP here, I must say that I am worried about the GM inability to help. I say "inability" because I asume that GMs - being players like us too - would like nothing better than to help someone who appears to be griefed, but cannot due to their own restrictions or lack of tools. There is, of course, the possibility that there may be more at play in this deed attack scenario. I was not there, I can't comment. Still, I find it worrisome that the onus is on the player to find out who did this, given the PvE orientation of the server. How wouild a player find out this information? Tracking reveals little and ownership of the catapult may be misleading and create false accusations. Do the GMs really have no tools to get data in such instances? Shouldn't they be given such tools?

 

On a PvP server, a player group has an ability to police their own area. If someone bashes your house, you can bash their back and take what's yours. On a PvE server, however, the policiing is done by the rules. Those rules need to be upheld for the system to work.

 

This reminds me of a large incident that happened on Xanadu well over a year ago. A player group managed - due to superior knowlege of the permission system at the time (exploitation of bugs or clever manipulation of permissions) to clean out a number of deeds in the western part of that continent. In one case, they managed to add themselves to the deed, change the rules of governship and then... vote the deed owner out. The deed owner lost his own deed to this group. Tickets followed, long investigations supposedly took place. In the end, the perpetrator group was banned and the permissions system reworked. That was very good. The only thing that wasn't good was the fact that none of the players got anything back. I know that's how things on Wurm work and the system is harsh when you get griefed. Still, in the case of the player who lost his own deed, he did receive his deed back, but in the state that the perpetrator group left it. They took everything and destroyed much. What's worse, they resized what was a large deed to its minimum size. The player got that small, minimum deed back and it was up to him to get more silver to restore it to original dimensions by resizing it again. He was given no silver to do so.

 

Many of us in this game are very supportive of the "you got screwed - too bad, you probably did something wrong in the first place" attitude. I am not sure where it comes from, because when bad things happen to everyone of us, we all cry foul. Still, putting even that argument aside, I think the player who lost his deed should have been given some means of resizing it to its original large dimensions for free. He already suffered enough and his only "crime" was to have no doctorate in the then rather complex permission systems, which to this date are still suspected as being bugged. In any case, the majority of the people who were affected by these incidents left the game. That included all of my friends... they were unfortunately the victims. To this day I think about this incident and to this day I think it should have been handled better by the GMs. The punishments, the bans and the reworking of the permission code was handled well, but vicitim retribution is not in Wurm's style. Even a sandbox game should have some form of victim compensation, even if limited. Especially when the guilty party is found to not play by the rules and banned from the game. We all love what we create here and it really hurts to have it destroyed or taken away.

 

It's likely, however, that in the above example the GMs simply had no power to do anything else than issue bans. The fact that they gave the deed back to the player shows some degree of control over the game, but it may have ended there. Now, when I hear of the current scenario and that the onus of finding the perpetrator is on the player whose deed has been apparently attacked on a PvE server, all this ties together into an iffy picture. And yes, I may be falling into perceptions here. After all, like I stated above, I wasn't there. There may be more at play.

 

Still, putting the above examples together with this potential incident and many others that have transpired in the past, I wonder if it's not time to review GM powers. I sincerely doubt that none of them care. It's more likely that their rules are so stringent that they themselves are helpless. Be it the code that doesn't allow them proper action or the rules that tie their hands, the GMs do not appear to have the tools to enforce rules properly and compassionately. It may be all perceptions here, but perceptions is all we have as players.

[Stik 453]

16 hours ago, Hashirama said:

Clearly you and the MR guys do not know anything.
Kratos had permissions for alliance members to be able to destroy buildings. My alt was able to bash an entire wall and catapult too caus duh permissions. (as it was an ally member and not villager)
It might be bugged or not, but in that scenario it was mayor's fault alone. 

Chaos is a pvp server, therefore "hunted" bugged status is the root cause.
Also before you take my name you should know more about the game, people can effectively use trolls to bash other people's house. It is very easy to accomplish (but only works for unfinished houses), that wouldnt likely be how icbash lost his stuff but there are many ways to break in, just saying. Troll one is the only one I know so far.

Again, mayor of Kratos didn't know how to set up permissions properly, I have talked about this to MR guys as well as other people, it might be bugged or not but that example which you are using here does not fit. And while you were yourself witnessing the entire episode on skype through screenshare, I think I already told you few times that they had messed up permissions there and I also remember you laughing and giggling about it.

could have been a permissions thing, but I recall at the time them saying that it was not part of permissions to prevent that sort of thing from happening, after they tested it as a citizen afterwards to see the issue. I could be wrong, but I do definitely recall their account of it being "bugged".
I also did find it quite funny that you were able to do it. I wasn't trying to throw you under the bus here, PvP server is PvP server. HotS in the past was segregated into interkingdom fighting, all was fun in the name of the game. Recall stories of how kingdom mates wiped entire horse stocks by themselves. Getting 'griefed' by your own kingdom is all fair on Chaos IMHO. If you decide to take anyone with a working mouse into your kingdom expect consequences.

Freedom might be under a different set of rules, as Jakerivers has said.
( I felt, and still feel that it was fair game during the Kratos raid. they have done the same with purchased accounts in the past. Despite it maybe gimping players who were not participating in this style of gameplay, getting bitter and upset about something you (MR) left unchecked when the Pedro account was purchased, kek getting upset about it when someone does it to you )

((Not to derail the topic, but there might be a very real issue with the catapulting permissions under a certain set of parameters, be it isolated on PvP servers, or within PvE servers. ))

Edited April 23, 2016 by Stik

[LorraineJ 1,099]

16 hours ago, griper said:

The devs should be more intetested in this incident. Just for finding potential bugs.

 

Sometimes Code Club doesn't know these things are happening. That's what happened to me during the long griefing in my area. I assumed all along that Rolf/Code Club knew it was going on, but they did not. Someone who came and looked, or heard of what was happening, must have alerted them to the situation. It was only then that the situation was put to a close. I believe that if CC didn't end up informed, it might still be happening now. Other nonsense has been allowed to go on for over a year.

 

You should let Rolf know why you are leaving. Just politely tell him why you are no longer going to be a paying customer, and why you are leaving with a bad taste in your mouth after a long time of playing, and you feel sad that you can't recommend the game to others. He has the right to know why his income is decreasing.

[Alexgopen 2,376]

Just now, LorraineJ said:

 

Sometimes Code Club doesn't know these things are happening. That's what happened to me during the long griefing in my area. I assumed all along that Rolf/Code Club knew it was going on, but they did not. Someone who came and looked, or heard of what was happening, must have alerted them to the situation. It was only then that the situation was put to a close. I believe that if CC didn't end up informed, it might still be happening now. Other nonsense has been allowed to go on for over a year.

 

You should let Rolf know why you are leaving. Just politely tell him why you are no longer going to be a paying customer, and why you are leaving with a bad taste in your mouth after a long time of playing, and you feel sad that you can't recommend the game to others. He has the right to know why his income is decreasing.

 

exit surveys would be helpful, even if most people dont care to fill them out some people would as a means to vent/rant and display their dissatisfaction (feedback)

[LorraineJ 1,099]

9 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

 

exit surveys would be helpful, even if most people dont care to fill them out some people would as a means to vent/rant and display their dissatisfaction (feedback)

 

You know, I'd bet lots of people leaving THIS game would fill them out. Most people don't fill out surveys because they don't want to spend the time. This isn't a game full of people who don't want to spend the time.

 

[Alexgopen 2,376]

7 minutes ago, LorraineJ said:

 

You know, I'd bet lots of people leaving THIS game would fill them out. Most people don't fill out surveys because they don't want to spend the time. This isn't a game full of people who don't want to spend the time.

 

 

be as simple as sticky a sample form at the top of the WTS forums for people quitting and selling up to forum mail to a staff-made feedback account

[Marlon 303]

Another "boo hoo" and "why people like me are leaving"... I just can't seem to get "people like me" to leave quick enough... and I don't get it either, because I have been here for years, and don't see myself leaving.

So confused... so tired of rant threads. Just do it, stop barking.

[Audrel 2,223]

7 minutes ago, Marlon said:

Another "boo hoo" and "why people like me are leaving"... I just can't seem to get "people like me" to leave quick enough... and I don't get it either, because I have been here for years, and don't see myself leaving.

So confused... so tired of rant threads. Just do it, stop barking.

 

Yes, because Wurm has not lost nearly enough subscriptions yet. 

[Nappy 1,369]

15 minutes ago, Marlon said:

Another "boo hoo" and "why people like me are leaving"... I just can't seem to get "people like me" to leave quick enough... and I don't get it either, because I have been here for years, and don't see myself leaving.

So confused... so tired of rant threads. Just do it, stop barking.

 

Well, generally speaking fix the problem (ie. the root cause) and the rants will disappear.

 

- Rules that don't make sense (cause of the rant above I think)

- PVP that isn't being fixed in any way that shows actual progress - talk is cheap

 

Wishing people to shut-up may have temporary results. Unfortunately if you cut off people's ability to express themselves peacefully then you often leave them with only one more alternative. 

 

That alternative is to "vote with their feet" and leave the game completely. A lot of people have already voted that way, perhaps now is the time for reform?

[LorraineJ 1,099]

39 minutes ago, Marlon said:

Another "boo hoo" and "why people like me are leaving"... I just can't seem to get "people like me" to leave quick enough... and I don't get it either, because I have been here for years, and don't see myself leaving.

So confused... so tired of rant threads. Just do it, stop barking.

 

So when what's happened to us happens to you, you're going to just drop all of the time and money you've invested and go, with no feedback or efforts to fix it? I suppose that's one reaction.