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joojoo1975

6 months since Wurm unlimited. . . thoughts?

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I have been off and on in wurm since 2011.  imho most of the pvp servers have been "sparsely" populated.  but that's nothing new with mmo's in general.

 

it seemed from time to time the business model for any mmo that is going to have multiple servers is having PVE and PVP servers, where their money makers are the PVE servers.

 

in my humble opinion I don't know what to feel about this.  I could be wrong, but I don't think it's helped the current PVE and PVP servers online, but then again maybe you have better facts/info.

 

 

 

 

 

that said, what do you all feel about the Wurm unlimited stand alone? 

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It has not change much at all there are a few people that migrated over to WU but the added money made from the WU sales i would imagine covered that loss and more but as far as long term i have no idea. I guess that would be down to how many new WU games get sold vs how many new players cycle through WO each year. I think there will be enough long term WO players to always sustain the online version the only thing is replacing them as they leave.   As far as the players that come and go every few months i think wurm as a whole will get more of them with WU and make more in the long run then before.

 

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I feel Wurm Unlimited is a great tool for those who enjoy coding and world building, and a quiet haven for those who really enjoy the casual hermit life of gaming.  It's a good exploration tool that allows players to craft the experience of the game and not just the world around them in the game.  That being said I don't think it holds a candle to what Wurm Online is in terms of community, security, and longevity.  Wurm Unlimited, in my opinion, is an experiment and a tool in a toolbox, but not the full game or full experience that Wurm Online is.  I guess a good way to think of it would be to call it a supplement to the title game.

Edited by Slickshot
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I feel the same way about WU as I do about Xanadu...horrible.

 

They fragmented our population. There's just not enough of us to go around, and then they made it even worse.

 

Community is a massive part of this game, and losing somewhere between a half to two thirds of our regular server population puts a major damper on it.

 

Doing something like Xanadu should have been in response to a growing game not something to hopefully grow the game (which it really didn't, just spread what we had over more territory).

 

I regret both and I hope one day we're able to recover to where we were, but I have my doubts.

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thank you for the replies so far.  it gets Really lonely by yourself and all you are doing is getting rock for you walls. and then making support beams

 

that's the #1 reason why I usually don't make it past the initial round of prem.  the server is sparse.  and it seems peeps are not looking for a LW or me ;) for epic.

 

hence I come here and like seeing good conversations that are not flamed out by the 5th reply

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1 minute ago, Hailene said:

I feel the same way about WU as I do about Xanadu...horrible.

 

They fragmented our population. There's just not enough of us to go around, and then they made it even worse.

 

Community is a massive part of this game, and losing somewhere between a half to two thirds of our regular server population puts a major damper on it.

 

Doing something like Xanadu should have been in response to a growing game not something to hopefully grow the game (which it really didn't, just spread what we had over more territory).

 

I regret both and I hope one day we're able to recover to where we were, but I have my doubts.

I disagree a little.  While I am not fond of WU as WO is the superior model, I don't dislike it as much as I dislike the introduction of Xanadu.  I don't believe WU is the downfall of WO, as it was one of the more beneficial ways to open Wurm Online to a broad audience and make money in the process.  Ongoing subscriptions will always be more profitable than one-time sales, but those one-time sales, in this scenario, have infused CC with more money to expand their horizons a bit and put more back into the title game itself.  This was a good move.

 

Opening Xanadu quite a while back; however, was a mistake in my opinion.  As beautiful and impressive as Xanadu is it is still Wurm Online.  What I mean by that is that it is more of the same, except spread out over a greater distance than ever before.  The idea behind Xanadu was to create something so massive, immersive, and new that it would kickstart a player surge into the game.  The advertising effort that went along with Xanadu has only been seen on one other occasion in Wurm Online history, and that was during the official launch in 2012.  Sure a lot of new players came flowing through the gates and into Xanadu, but the same tried and true rule throughout all the servers remained:  most will leave, and few will stay to become veterans.  Xanadu, compared to Wurm Unlimited, cost us, the players, nothing.  There was no infusion of cash from the opening of Xanadu, and once the shining appeal began to wear off the population returned to normal, but without the extra cash to benefit development and with the added deficit of splitting the online community to ultra thin densities. 

 

Wurm Online thrives because of the loyalty of the players who find a home here, and because of the commitment of the developers to see this experience through to the end.  Without this teamwork we probably wouldn't be here today.  Thinning us out abroad so many servers; however, goes against the nature of how we came to be here in the first place and how we remain.  To conclude my opinion I'd like to say that while I do not personally play on WU servers, I don't believe WU is the death of WO.  I don't believe Xanadu is the death of WO.  I do believe Xanadu hurt us in the long scheme, but I don't believe we'll flounder and die from it.  Wurm Unlimited has pumped new blood into Wurm Online.  Sure it has inevitably lead to the closure of some subscription accounts, but that was to be expected.  Don't let the numbers fool you--the lower subscription numbers will be dangerous in the long run, of course, but for right now they aren't as dangerous as people make them out to be.  We the players, and the developers, have the time and the means to continue building Wurm Online and lead it into its new age.  It's just going to take some loyalty, patience, and hard work to get there.  :)

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54 minutes ago, Hailene said:

They fragmented our population. There's just not enough of us to go around, and then they made it even worse.

 

Community is a massive part of this game, and losing somewhere between a half to two thirds of our regular server population puts a major damper on it.

 

People chose to go to Xanadu.

People chose to go to WU.

 

It doesn't fragment the community just because it exists...people went there because they wanted to and probably weren't part of a community to begin with.

If everyone still wanted a strong community, no one would have left to go to Xanadu... some people just don't care for it. Those who do, stayed.

Edited by Kerry
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I don't like playing with other people but i choose to play WO because even if i dont want people in my local i still like it where i can buy and sell things to others.

 

There is also something to be said about being creative even though some people like to play alone there still is that feeling that your deed/work will be seen by people passing by on their travels. When i did play WU i found myself missing that aspect of the game granted it was on my own private server but if i am gong to play on a public server it might as well be the official one where there is more stability and a better market to buy and sell things. 

Edited by Kegan
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43 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

I disagree a little.  While I am not fond of WU as WO is the superior model, I don't dislike it as much as I dislike the introduction of Xanadu.  I don't believe WU is the downfall of WO, as it was one of the more beneficial ways to open Wurm Online to a broad audience and make money in the process.  Ongoing subscriptions will always be more profitable than one-time sales, but those one-time sales, in this scenario, have infused CC with more money to expand their horizons a bit and put more back into the title game itself.  This was a good move.

 

The secret to a successful business (and sorta to life unless you were given a butt-ton of money) is operating free cash flow. I hold my doubts whether WU will help OFCF in the long run.

 

7 minutes ago, Kerry said:

It doesn't fragment the community just because it exists...people went there because they wanted to and probably weren't part of a community to begin with.

 

Fragmentation isn't dependent on intent. All that matters is that it happened.

 

And you expect people to act as rational actors in everything they do O_o? Do you think people thought long and hard about the whys they'd move and weren't, say, moved to action by their emotions?

 

I'm not saying we should be robots and analyze things with some quantifiable criteria for everything we do, but I am saying we should acknowledge that people sometimes do things because they feel like and/or do something that satisfies some of their desires while disregarding others (e.g. some people wanted to explore a new, untouched land but at the same time wanted to stay with the neighbors they grew up with...just because someone picks the former choice doesn't mean the latter choice means nothing to them).

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Fact : Wurm Online's population has dropped since Wurm Unlimited opened its gates.  - http://jenn001.game.wurmonline.com/mrtg/paying.html

 

Assumption (reasonable) : Player retention has not risen or dropped.

 

Unproven Hypothesis (reasonable) : Players are less likely to buy a subscription and more likely to "buy to play". - http://steamspy.com/app/366220

 

Conclusion : Wurm Online's player population has suffered since the release of wurm unlimited due to the release of wurm unlimited..

 

 

Is WU a bad thing?  No, I think it offers a strong alternative payment model to WO and it might give the devs the push they need to change the way wurm works.

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8 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

The secret to a successful business (and sorta to life unless you were given a butt-ton of money) is operating free cash flow. I hold my doubts whether WU will help OFCF in the long run.

 

 

Fragmentation isn't dependent on intent. All that matters is that it happened.

 

And you expect people to act as rational actors in everything they do O_o? Do you think people thought long and hard about the whys they'd move and weren't, say, moved to action by their emotions?

 

I'm not saying we should be robots and analyze things with some quantifiable criteria for everything we do, but I am saying we should acknowledge that people sometimes do things because they feel like and/or do something that satisfies some of their desires while disregarding others (e.g. some people wanted to explore a new, untouched land but at the same time wanted to stay with the neighbors they grew up with...just because someone picks the former choice doesn't mean the latter choice means nothing to them).

 

If someone enjoyed living in part of a community on say Exodus...why would they just up and leave to go play on Xanadu solo?

It's 100% our own fault for having such a split community.

 

If everyone who wanted close-community play just got together and moved to Pristine, we could have a server with 30+ people in local at all times...but people just don't want it.

They say they do, but when it comes to actually moving and starting over, it was just a nice idea and not really something they wanted.

 

People have tried getting large communities together in Wurm in the past, numerous times...they always fail after a few weeks/months. There are a few large alliances, although they don't have day to day interactions with each other much.

 

Wurm just doesn't lend itself to community play that well, as everyone can do everything for the most part. Why have a village chef when everyone can cook their own food etc. Sure, it's nice to have someone with 90 weaponsmithing or something in your village, but outside of Chaos that doesn't happen much.

Edited by Kerry

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22 minutes ago, Kerry said:

 

If someone enjoyed living in part of a community on say Exodus...why would they just up and leave to go play on Xanadu solo?

It's 100% our own fault for having such a split community.

 

If everyone who wanted close-community play just got together and moved to Pristine, we could have a server with 30+ people in local at all times...but people just don't want it.

They say they do, but when it comes to actually moving and starting over, it was just a nice idea and not really something they wanted.

 

People have tried getting large communities together in Wurm in the past, numerous times...they always fail after a few weeks/months. There are a few large alliances, although they don't have day to day interactions with each other much.

 

Wurm just doesn't lend itself to community play that well, as everyone can do everything for the most part. Why have a village chef when everyone can cook their own food etc. Sure, it's nice to have someone with 90 weaponsmithing or something in your village, but outside of Chaos that doesn't happen much.

This analogy will be loose, and I quoted this comment specifically, but this response is more in-line with your initial reply to me that a server doesn't fragment the population just by existing.  Stick with me here:

 

Someone can't shoot themselves without a gun to do it.  People cannot migrate to a massive server resulting in a thinner population density if a massive server doesn't exist for them to move to.  I hope that point is clear.  Sure people still have to make the choice to move to said server, but that choice wouldn't be available without the existence of the server.  We would also be none the wiser to what could or could not have been, because it never existed in the first place.

 

As I said previously, I don't think Xanadu killed Wurm Online, as it is part of Wurm Online, but I do believe it hurt the community aspect of the game by spreading us a little too thin.  Now if we had a player surge from the release of WU or any future endeavors, and those higher player counts lingered and thrived for many months, THEN releasing such a massive server could be of benefit.  It is my belief; however, that we were not in a good position numbers-wise to have Xanadu released to us.

Edited by Slickshot

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I live on Xanadu and I think it wasn't a good idea. It's a great looking server. Lots of space and a good community that's not overrun by self-sufficient veterans (sorry, vets, but it's hard to be a newb or even middling-aged player amongst vets.). I do think that combining the old and new clusters without Xanadu would have been a better idea though. Newbs wouldn't have their own server, but you wouldn't be stuck anywhere either. 

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I like the fact that there is a WU stand-alone.

 

I looked upon it with anger when it was released, but my RL changed so much lately that I had no time left to even play wurm and I don't see that changing any time soon.

My premium subscription from Nov to May was an absolute waste since I didnt play. However, I sold out in March anyway.

I haven't bought a WU copy yet, but should I ever return to Wurm I sure as hell won't pay a monthly fee anymore.

 

Blaming WO's decline in player population cannot be solely blamed on WU though I think. From what I can see on the server graphs, players started leaving before the release of WU. It could be due to the announcement of WU though, who knows.

 

But.. I still don't see how WU is supposed to attract any WO players. Lol. Who in his right mind would pay 96€ per year for premium vs. 27.99€ once and for all?

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Personally a lot of the problems of WO were caused by Xana since it still has lag and spawning problems, and the long sail times made it hard on a lot of people.

 

Plus the added problem of no new recent skill trees, Bridges disappearing, poorly implementation of player gods, and the Devs being to quiet added to the plight

 

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17 minutes ago, Balmore said:

I like the fact that there is a WU stand-alone.

 

I looked upon it with anger when it was released, but my RL changed so much lately that I had no time left to even play wurm and I don't see that changing any time soon.

My premium subscription from Nov to May was an absolute waste since I didnt play. However, I sold out in March anyway.

I haven't bought a WU copy yet, but should I ever return to Wurm I sure as hell won't pay a monthly fee anymore.

 

Blaming WO's decline in player population cannot be solely blamed on WU though I think. From what I can see on the server graphs, players started leaving before the release of WU. It could be due to the announcement of WU though, who knows.

 

But.. I still don't see how WU is supposed to attract any WO players. Lol. Who in his right mind would pay 96€ per year for premium vs. 27.99€ once and for all?

The reason the massive majority of Wurm Online players prefer WO over WU is because WO has official servers and an official development team, not to mention a larger community.  With official servers comes security, and with official developers comes steady content and patches.  WU private servers don't hold up to the same scope, nor should they.  They are appealing to those who mostly enjoy playing alone in a sandbox game, but for those who really want the community experience the destination will always be Wurm Online itself.  In fact, I've spoken with many players in-game who tried WU first, didn't like how deserted it felt, and came to Wurm Online instead.  They bought premium and jumped right into the deep end of the pool, presumably never looking back.  It makes perfect sense to me.

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2 hours ago, Hailene said:

I feel the same way about WU as I do about Xanadu...horrible.

 

They fragmented our population. There's just not enough of us to go around, and then they made it even worse.

 

Community is a massive part of this game, and losing somewhere between a half to two thirds of our regular server population puts a major damper on it.

 

Doing something like Xanadu should have been in response to a growing game not something to hopefully grow the game (which it really didn't, just spread what we had over more territory).

 

I regret both and I hope one day we're able to recover to where we were, but I have my doubts.

 

The Players of Wurm are fragmented because it's possible, and they choose to be. If it was not possible to be fragmented in Wurm, for instance if there was only one server or one PvP and one nonPvP server as some suggest, then I guarantee you I would no longer participate in Wurm and I bet there would be others that would leave as well. I will not get into my reasons here and now, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Those who wish to "Play Together" will, they will find others one way or another. Leave those who don't want to play with others to do as they will please, and if that means them being a hermit, then it's better they are then gone (loss of revenue for CC) or being a member of a village and miserable because Rolf's game design forces them to as some would suggest needs to happen.

 

The game allows both gregarious and hermits to play Wurm. CC (Rolf) benefits and the game benefits due to increased revenue, which benefits all of us. I call that a win.

 

Edited by geode
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1 hour ago, Kerry said:

If someone enjoyed living in part of a community on say Exodus...why would they just up and leave to go play on Xanadu solo?

 

There are many reasons why people would like to move from a larger community to a smaller one. I listed one in my previous post, but I am sure there are tens of reasons why someone would want to go to a new server (either in a group, a large group, or even solo).

 

And whether or not "we" did it to ourselves is irrelevent. The fact is that, as Slickshot mentioned, without a Xanadu or WU, there would not have been an option to fragment the population in the way we do with Xanadu and WU.

 

We weren't exactly hurting for space before these opened up. Now it's become even more of a wasteland.

 

Whether or not this issue is self-inflicted does not matter. What matters is that it has happened and, in my opinion, Wurm Online is poorer for it.

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1 hour ago, Hailene said:

 

There are many reasons why people would like to move from a larger community to a smaller one. I listed one in my previous post, but I am sure there are tens of reasons why someone would want to go to a new server (either in a group, a large group, or even solo).

 

And whether or not "we" did it to ourselves is irrelevent. The fact is that, as Slickshot mentioned, without a Xanadu or WU, there would not have been an option to fragment the population in the way we do with Xanadu and WU.

 

We weren't exactly hurting for space before these opened up. Now it's become even more of a wasteland.

 

Whether or not this issue is self-inflicted does not matter. What matters is that it has happened and, in my opinion, Wurm Online is poorer for it.

Believe their was lots of demand for a new server largely do to the decay system, which can take over a year just to remove fences off deed that are not managed,

Xana also came during the Deed it or lose it rule. The former rule created vast tracts of fences, around most of the starting zones.

 

1 hour ago, Hailene said:

 

Edited by enoofu

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5 hours ago, joojoo1975 said:

I have been off and on in wurm since 2011.  imho most of the pvp servers have been "sparsely" populated.  but that's nothing new with mmo's in general.

 

it seemed from time to time the business model for any mmo that is going to have multiple servers is having PVE and PVP servers, where their money makers are the PVE servers.

 

in my humble opinion I don't know what to feel about this.  I could be wrong, but I don't think it's helped the current PVE and PVP servers online, but then again maybe you have better facts/info.

 

 

 

 

 

that said, what do you all feel about the Wurm unlimited stand alone? 

I should answer this directly.

 

I would shut down my WO deeds and play on a WU private server/stand alone if I wasn't required to use STEAM for it (I won't use Origin or any other "middleman game service provider"). If WU was available for download and playing through a CodeClub interface ONLY I would be playing WU right now.

Edited by geode

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I view WU as profitable advertising, yes profitable. Well it may not be because its hard to see the long term monetary aspect of lost subscription revenue versus the large one time payment. It's advertising because any player that tries WU and doesn't like the lack of community will likely at least try WO.

 

There is also development value to WO from WU's modding. It is a source of free development. WO can evaluate potential game additions that were coded, tested and implemented in WU for free. We haven't seen a lot of content being made because its such a hassle to mod.

 

I greatly appreciate WU's introduction. For me, WU > WO.

* I can mod it to get rid-of/add game features that I want. I now have the power to make what I want reality...no longer do I need argue or begging for stuff.

* I don't have to abide by, what are imo, stupid GM rules.

* I never cared about playing with others either.

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tbh WU has some nice things, but then its just broken. maps that show you caves, 24hr cooldowns that can be bypassed with a mod, allowing Final Breath (i think it's called) to use an attack in pve over and over. I would much rather play on a quick WO run server, even faster than epic and actually has an end game. (which they don't have)

 

I don't know if anyone has heard of Crowfall but the way they are going about their world has me more intrigued, than anything announced as fixes for wurm pvp. While I love being able to dig the dirt and mine the rock, I really love the rush of the start of a new map. play your little heart out then do it again better and faster, or different all together.

 

I'm a pvper. pve to me is a waste of time. I like to get stuff and go fight. but wurm has been another one of those games where I find myself alone to often and in a numbers game burns me out.

 

 

 

not trying to advertise or anything but this game plans to be pvp only. maybe the devs can get some inspiration.

Edited by Aetherion

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14 hours ago, Slickshot said:

The reason the massive majority of Wurm Online players prefer WO over WU is because WO has official servers and an official development team, not to mention a larger community.  With official servers comes security, and with official developers comes steady content and patches.  WU private servers don't hold up to the same scope, nor should they.  They are appealing to those who mostly enjoy playing alone in a sandbox game, but for those who really want the community experience the destination will always be Wurm Online itself.  In fact, I've spoken with many players in-game who tried WU first, didn't like how deserted it felt, and came to Wurm Online instead.  They bought premium and jumped right into the deep end of the pool, presumably never looking back.  It makes perfect sense to me.

 

I have to admit, you're giving a few fair points there. But in the end you've just seen a few people come from WU.

The question remains: how many WU players actually switch to WO? And how many WO players did switch to WU?

 

I don't think most WO players actually need a huge community. I mean 90% of the population on the PvE servers have a deed of their own at a considerable size, just to be alone. ;) Hence, WU servers are attractive.

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Most of those players still enjoy interacting with other players in chat or enjoy doing business with others, even if they live alone.  This fact proves itself as said players are still playing WO and not WU.

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When Wurm Unlimited released to Steam I started looking at it and Wurm Online.  Both appealed to me, but I play another MMO and they were releasing a new expansion around the same time so I stayed where I was, but kept tabs on WU and WO.  The reason they both appealed to me was the sandbox style and crafting.  I remember back to Ultima Online (similar skill system) and Star Wars Galaxies (similar resources and crafting style).  Loved those games and very few games today offer the sandbox and crafting found in Wurm.  WU offered a one time payment with the ability to do whatever I want whenever I want without any other commitments.  This is especially intriguing if you play other games or have a lot of other things going on in RL.  WO offered much of the same thing, but with dedicated servers and the community aspect.  The community aspect only really perked up when I recently found some of my friends from games before playing WO.  Being able to play with old friends in a game tipped me to WO and it only took one weekend of play for me to go from free to prem.  WO and WU are a very niche genre of game.  They will never appeal to the broad masses (not enough now, now, now...ie: too much actual work).  Most gamers nowadays are very casual and WU appeals to the group of the niche (Last I saw WU had sold over 30k units on steam).  Those who are lucky enough to have friends playing WO will join WO for that aspect.  

When I decided to deed for a home my friends and I scouted several areas because I had a very specific idea of what I wanted.  I like to be self-sufficient especially with crafting.  I like to be away from others with a large area to call my own (Luckily, my friends are on Xanadu and that makes this easier).  Had to have proximity to water, mining, land for expansion (deed currently 32x31) while still having easy access to more people and the community.  I have a lot of resources nearby, bout a 10-15 minute cart ride to the Summerholt community, 30 minutes (ish) to Whitefey with plenty of hunting areas in between there as well as more community and people to meet.

 

People will go where they think most meets what they want from the game.  WU has brought in around $1 million in new capital without taking much from WO.  This allows the team to fund more of what will be needed for WO.  That should be a good thing for CC and the future of WO at least for thebshort to mid term.

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