"Everything that needs to be said here, has been said."

[zigozag 918]

5 hours ago, rixk said:

Locking a topic should be last resort.. there is possibility to clean trolling posts, actually punish the trolls.. but right now I see a pattern.. someone starts controversial thread, it goes on a while, then someone (usually someone who isn't involved in any way) says, that "why isn't this topic closed yet?" and then we see Pandalet hop in with "this thread has run its course" and lock.

 

I'd like to sign under this. I find phrasing of these 2 standard reasons, by the way, very annoying too. Now if we put challenging moderation aside, perhaps we just need a new section for flood and flames? Most of forums have those, and they hardly ever get any serious moderation except for dirty language. Wood Scraps seems to serve a different purpose.

Edited April 18, 2016 by zigozag

[Fawkes 1,567]

Looks like it's time to bring back the Tar Pit

 

Pls Rolf

 

Do it

[Depends 220]

17 minutes ago, zigozag said:

 

I'd like to sign under this. I find phrasing of these 2 standard reasons, by the way, very annoying too. Now if we put challenging moderation aside, perhaps we just need a new section for flood and flames? Most of forums have those, and they hardly ever get any serious moderation except for dirty language. Wood Scraps seems to serve a different purpose.

 

Both locking and removing posts should be last resort. Normally you'd see moderators guiding the conversation away from the point where a thread is irredeemable.  The main purpose of a moderator is to keep discussion going not to stop it. 

That said, some threads start out irredeemable, and some posters are known for trolling a thread with the intent of derailing and getting it locked. Curbing both of those earlier instead of letting something run to the point that they tend to get to around here would make things a lot friendlier.

[Toecutter 331]

I agree with LorraineJ here name and shame the bastards  even if they had permissions ,i know if i am invited into someones home it does not mean  i can  take their belongings and if that person is in my local i can warn others  to be extra careful.

 

Enki said your reputation is to do with as you please...so you want to go take what is not yours go ahead,but you are ALLOWED to name,shame or warn others.

[Keenan 5,539]

EQ2Flames was a very interesting place to be at times... they allowed pretty much anything. Nothing stops someone from forming their own unofficial forum for such things. In fact, as I think I mentioned elsewhere, I was working on that very thing myself when I was brought on to the team. As a team member I cannot run a community site though, so I stopped working on it in favor of volunteering here.

 

That said, the moderation team does a hard job and they do it well. We don't need to vicariously watch fellow players bludgeon each other to death with harsh words and horrible memes. The point is made, we get it. Someone offended you, made you feel less pretty or special, you got your say in, and now we all move on. That's how I see it. Situations of real and actual abuse are handled on an as-needed basis by the GM team. Situations where the mechanics allowed someone to take a loss are unfortunate, usually avoidable, but are still part of the game. Take this as a fellow member of the community who has always found these posts tiring and a detriment to the game and community.

 

Just my few copper. I always say that I prefer being a developer because the code doesn't talk back when I beat it senselessly, nor does it come posting on the forums whenever it feels that I've offended it or caused it undo stress.  

 

Edit: The problem with "name and shame" is that the interpretation of "grief" is completely biased to the person who makes the first post. I've seen the mob mentality do terrible things here, and I'd not like to see it encouraged any more than it already is. In a situation where say someone deeds over a track of land, and the person who loses out comes on here to bemoan and seek sympathy for their loss - who are we to decide that the other person deserves to be shamed? Do they deserve their reputation tarnished and to be publicly harassed because they weren't the first person to come here and make a plea of grief? I don't think so. They also can't very well come here and exonerate themselves after the fact, as everyone who reads a post is now biased against them and will view anything they say as "excuses" or attempts to save face.

 

No. No no no. 

 

Keep up the good work mods.

[Pandalet 1,848]

In the particular thread in question, both parties had weighed in with their version of events, and some posts from others had been hidden as being massively off-topic.  Anyone concerned about dealing with the folks in question can readily search for thier names - I note the OP in this case helpfully tagged the thread with them, making it even easier.  I closed the thread as I didn't see that much more that could be said in this case.  Name and shame is not the same as a lynch mob - setting out what happened in a sensible fashion as a warning to others doesn't need to become a self-powered shouting match.  The information is now there if you wish to look for it, and it's not obscured by a long argument about whether GMs should get involved or not, or the merits of deed-it-or-lose-it, or whether PvP is better than PvE, or any of the other stock disagreements that these threads tend to turn into.

 

Pinning this sort of thread to the top of the forum would result in the first page becoming nothing but dealings gone wrong; I don't think that's useful.  Perhaps a separate section for trades gone wrong, etc. is something we can look at; really, though, I'd hope that there aren't enough inidividuals that require this treatment to make it really necessary, and I would be concerned that such a sub-forum would turn into a toxic drama pit.

 

Finally, I will add that if you feel a moderation action is incorrect, you are most welcome to contact one of the team by PM - either myself or Firestarter if you're not sure who else to contact.  I may not necessarily agree with you, but I'm open to (mature, constructive) discussion, and can be persuaded to reverse a decision where appropriate.  This is not an invitation to take out your frustration on us, by the way - vitriolic, abusive messages will be treated with the contempt they deserve.  Ultimately, the object of the moderation exercise is to make the forums somewhere enjoyable for Wurm players, so you're welcome to provide constructive feedback.

[griper 537]

Havent read the entire thread and dont know about the incidents behind this but as the game is built on sand box mentality and letting people do what they want, it seems weird that mods should censor "name and shaming" as (on PvE servers) it is the only way for grief victims to handle the situation.

It makes potential griefers think twice before they do bad stuff.

 

[Slickshot 1,195]

7 minutes ago, Keenan said:

EQ2Flames was a very interesting place to be at times... they allowed pretty much anything. Nothing stops someone from forming their own unofficial forum for such things. In fact, as I think I mentioned elsewhere, I was working on that very thing myself when I was brought on to the team. As a team member I cannot run a community site though, so I stopped working on it in favor of volunteering here.

 

That said, the moderation team does a hard job and they do it well. We don't need to vicariously watch fellow players bludgeon each other to death with harsh words and horrible memes. The point is made, we get it. Someone offended you, made you feel less pretty or special, you got your say in, and now we all move on. That's how I see it. Situations of real and actual abuse are handled on an as-needed basis by the GM team. Situations where the mechanics allowed someone to take a loss are unfortunate, usually avoidable, but are still part of the game. Take this as a fellow member of the community who has always found these posts tiring and a detriment to the game and community.

 

Just my few copper. I always say that I prefer being a developer because the code doesn't talk back when I beat it senselessly, nor does it come posting on the forums whenever it feels that I've offended it or caused it undo stress.  

 

Edit: The problem with "name and shame" is that the interpretation of "grief" is completely biased to the person who makes the first post. I've seen the mob mentality do terrible things here, and I'd not like to see it encouraged any more than it already is. In a situation where say someone deeds over a track of land, and the person who loses out comes on here to bemoan and seek sympathy for their loss - who are we to decide that the other person deserves to be shamed? Do they deserve their reputation tarnished and to be publicly harassed because they weren't the first person to come here and make a plea of grief? I don't think so. They also can't very well come here and exonerate themselves after the fact, as everyone who reads a post is now biased against them and will view anything they say as "excuses" or attempts to save face.

 

No. No no no. 

 

Keep up the good work mods.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but accountability has to start some where.  Stealing from someone, whether their perms allow it or not, is still immoral.  Walking into someone's deed and murdering their horses is still immoral.  Digging massive pits in someone's perimeter out of spite is still immoral.  Destroying a highway--which is illegal without permission, I might add--and deeding over it to block access on a route is still immoral.  These such actions are sometimes handled by GM's in-game.  Some times said GM's side with the "technically it's within the rules, so my hands are tied" claim.  This doesn't mean the actions aren't immoral.  It doesn't mean the intent wasn't to steal or grief.  It literally only means that moderation let someone off the hook that probably didn't deserve to be.  In these situations it is beneficial--that's right, beneficial--to the community for said actions to be detailed to the public.  Moderation certainly won't do it, as they are against the public airing of punishments.  Sometimes that is understandable, as some players make grievous mistakes only once, and correct their behavior.  However, for those who go unpunished they often continue.  In those moments it is good for the community to know who to be wary of.  We don't always handle such information correctly; the inciting of flame wars and insults ramps up quickly by the select few who choose that route.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the opportunity; however, to defend what is ours.  If you [staff] won't always see to justice, then you have to accept that your job is done and let it go from there.  We can't dole out the punishment that you can, but we can certainly alert others in an attempt to save them from the unpunishable-grief.

 

I won't speak for those who prefer to insult and kick up the dust, as that hardly seems like justice and more of an excuse to show off, and such harassment can be monitored (as it always has been in the past) without the immediate closure of helpful informative threads.  Something to ponder, no doubt.

[Cecci 1,609]

We also have the a bit more subjective and undefined rule to "play nice or", that was mentioned by Enki in the aftermath after Nosfirebird.
He was acting within permissions but finally it got to much and Enki stepped in.

[paulski 16]

One of the cool things being said to kids near me about computer programming " lets you make anything a reality!". They can write code to make something how they want, any dream, anything. Its such a good idea. Why stop half way and let this sort of stuff through the cracks. In the end i dont really care its a game, i dont rely on it for money or to say "i did this", in the end if this all fell apart i would move on to something else. One post i did like when it comes to the its within the "rules" is  "This games community hates new players but, desperately needs them. I'm guilty of it too, no one likes a newbie shed within eye-shot of their deed, etc. This game has some of the most nasty people towards new players I've ever seen. As a result, we have the low population servers we have today. The "deed it or lose it" is fundamentally anti-new player. It is equivalent to saying "I'm taking all your ###### because you don't know enough about the game to stop me" " said by Buddydude. Couldnt have said it better myself new players are the only ones that suffer. Not me i have a deed i lock everything, i know about teh "shady" stuff. New players dont, it is these people that are getting hurt and its your game not mine so i cant tell you what to do or pretend that i know how to do this better but you do need the new players.

Edited April 18, 2016 by paulski

[Keenan 5,539]

51 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

I agree with most of what you're saying, but accountability has to start some where.  Stealing from someone, whether their perms allow it or not, is still immoral.  Walking into someone's deed and murdering their horses is still immoral.  Digging massive pits in someone's perimeter out of spite is still immoral.  Destroying a highway--which is illegal without permission, I might add--and deeding over it to block access on a route is still immoral.  These such actions are sometimes handled by GM's in-game.  Some times said GM's side with the "technically it's within the rules, so my hands are tied" claim.  This doesn't mean the actions aren't immoral.  It doesn't mean the intent wasn't to steal or grief.  It literally only means that moderation let someone off the hook that probably didn't deserve to be.  In these situations it is beneficial--that's right, beneficial--to the community for said actions to be detailed to the public.  Moderation certainly won't do it, as they are against the public airing of punishments.  Sometimes that is understandable, as some players make grievous mistakes only once, and correct their behavior.  However, for those who go unpunished they often continue.  In those moments it is good for the community to know who to be wary of.  We don't always handle such information correctly; the inciting of flame wars and insults ramps up quickly by the select few who choose that route.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the opportunity; however, to defend what is ours.  If you [staff] won't always see to justice, then you have to accept that your job is done and let it go from there.  We can't dole out the punishment that you can, but we can certainly alert others in an attempt to save them from the unpunishable-grief.

 

I won't speak for those who prefer to insult and kick up the dust, as that hardly seems like justice and more of an excuse to show off, and such harassment can be monitored (as it always has been in the past) without the immediate closure of helpful informative threads.  Something to ponder, no doubt.

 

I could be wrong, but immorality is a part of life and and Wurm. If we wanted to code strict player morals, we could. We at least go so far as to code in a basic idea of what's lawful, but I think policing morality is a bit beyond the scope of the team. Secure your stuff and have fun playing the game. Create an external forum if you feel there's a need to document morality cases better.

[Slickshot 1,195]

22 minutes ago, Keenan said:

 

I could be wrong, but immorality is a part of life and and Wurm. If we wanted to code strict player morals, we could. We at least go so far as to code in a basic idea of what's lawful, but I think policing morality is a bit beyond the scope of the team. Secure your stuff and have fun playing the game. Create an external forum if you feel there's a need to document morality cases better.

It is exactly beyond the scope of the team.  You [staff] don't have the time, nor the means to question morality, so why go to such lengths to limit players in their ability to do so?  Wouldn't that also be a stretch and beyond your scope?  If it is beyond your scope wouldn't that be up to us to decide, and not you?  It's kind of a catch-22, don't you think?

Edited April 18, 2016 by Slickshot

[rixk 830]

17 minutes ago, Keenan said:

 

I could be wrong, but immorality is a part of life and and Wurm. If we wanted to code strict player morals, we could. We at least go so far as to code in a basic idea of what's lawful, but I think policing morality is a bit beyond the scope of the team. Secure your stuff and have fun playing the game. Create an external forum if you feel there's a need to document morality cases better.

Funny how you compare life and wurm... in life you can get justice when someone acts as a jerk to you, or you can call cops.. in wurm we have no means for justice. THAT is the problem, the team has washed their hands clean step by step and now choose to ignore all the offences without giving any tools for us to police ourselves. These forum topics are the ONLY way to react for us, just to warn others, thats the most we can do.

[Pingpong 1,070]

Here's the thing, everyone in wurm either has or knows someone who legitimately got the short end of the stick when being griefed. Are there enough Gm's? Nope. Are they overworked? Sure. But when everyone around you knows of an actual case where something went wrong it makes you wonder (on pve land). I'm not advocating for pvp on freedom, we don't need more of the strong and griefers running things. Just the facts as I see them.

[paulski 16]

1 hour ago, Keenan said:

 

I could be wrong, but immorality is a part of life and and Wurm. If we wanted to code strict player morals, we could. We at least go so far as to code in a basic idea of what's lawful, but I think policing morality is a bit beyond the scope of the team. Secure your stuff and have fun playing the game. Create an external forum if you feel there's a need to document morality cases better.

Creating a better safety net for new players is within your capabilities. A newb island and they cant leave till they prem where nothing can be stole and so on. Let them deed for the first month for free. So many solutions none being done. If i was a new player and someone stole all my terraformed land and stuff on it because i was unenlightened wouldnt be here paying for wurm today.

[Mypoppy 57]

I have read the OP, and not the responses. But from what I have observed is that these threads can be constructive, but a troll tends to go on a rant about something in the left field that is 99% negative in nature. Now I am not sure if these trolls are doing this intentionally to troll-lock(new term eh), but I see Pandalet locking these threads as soon as this occurs. Maybe instead of locking an entire thread, remove the useless and negative posts with a brief summery of what was said and let the discussion continue. Thanks.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Mypoppy

[Zakalwe 15]

I think Pandalet's response is pretty reasonable. Both sides have said their piece, is it really worth leaving it open for all and sundry to share their opinions, making work for the moderators deleting the worst responses? I don't particularly need to know Slick and Hashi's opinion on every drama.

 

As to locked topics falling off the front page, currently the last week is visible on the first page here, the server forums have an even slower turnover, that's plenty of time for people to see these threads if they want to.

[Pinchaloaf 341]

32 minutes ago, Mypoppy said:

I have read the OP, and not the responses. But from what I have observed is that these threads can be constructive, but a troll tends to go on a rant about something in the left field that is 99% negative in nature. Now I am not sure if these trolls are doing this intentionally to troll-lock(new term eh), but I see Pandalet locking these threads as soon as this occurs. Maybe instead of locking an entire thread, remove the useless and negative posts with a brief summery of what was said and let the discussion continue. Thanks.

 

That's what people call a discussion. Instead of performing the tasks that they are charged with, developers and moderators would rather lockdown whole threads and squash any free exchange of ideas. It has been made perfectly clear, by said staff, that this place is no "real" forum. Free exchange of ideas is not allowed, unless those ideas conform to a set standard decided upon by three or four people in charge. The tools used to determine what is up to snuff are broad and vague, and often times slopped all over these forums with a wide brush, namely trolling and FUD, the latter of the two being laughable. And the coup de grace is the ever popular catch all of challenging moderation.

 

With a trio of rules designed to be ambiguous and allow the maximum thumb pressure to be applied where it is deemed to be needed most, it's honestly no surprise that most people who disagree with each other in these forums continuously, find themselves standing together on this issue.

[Depends 220]

Stopping the bickering, troll or derail when they start instead of letting the thread go from a discussion to an argument then locking it would do wonders.

More visible moderation would also improve things, instead of hiding posts and behind the scenes clean up, say something. Point out the bad posts and use them as examples of what not to do.

[Wingz 23]

3 hours ago, Depends said:

Stopping the bickering, troll or derail when they start instead of letting the thread go from a discussion to an argument then locking it would do wonders.

More visible moderation would also improve things, instead of hiding posts and behind the scenes clean up, say something. Point out the bad posts and use them as examples of what not to do.

 

 

 

In addition to this. A few times in the past even in Global chat in Wurm Online i've seen good discussions turn into bad where all the sudden a colored text shows up saying, "Lets clean this up guys, lets change topic" or something similar. But when trying to find out where the conversation went wrong the Chat moderators won't explain. I hear people asking, "ummmm, clean what up?" and no answer. There needs to be more information about what we did so we don't do it again, same thing goes for the forums.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

15 hours ago, Keenan said:

Edit: The problem with "name and shame" is that the interpretation of "grief" is completely biased to the person who makes the first post. I've seen the mob mentality do terrible things here, and I'd not like to see it encouraged any more than it already is. In a situation where say someone deeds over a track of land, and the person who loses out comes on here to bemoan and seek sympathy for their loss - who are we to decide that the other person deserves to be shamed? Do they deserve their reputation tarnished and to be publicly harassed because they weren't the first person to come here and make a plea of grief? I don't think so. They also can't very well come here and exonerate themselves after the fact, as everyone who reads a post is now biased against them and will view anything they say as "excuses" or attempts to save face.

 

But isn't this just as informative? If a person comes whining with some trumped up complaint, doesn't that reflect on them and NOT shame the other person?

 

Maybe the best thing to do is make a forum of arbitration. None of the "wurm is dying" stuff goes in there, just a public record of disagreements. And GMs could add to the post for verification. Here's what I mean:

 

Person A: Person B stole my dirts and crates off my dock.

Person B: Too bad, you didn't have your perms right.

GM: verified, Person B took the dirts and crates; perms allowed it; nothing done.

Person C: B has taken xyz from me also

Person D: B has taken abc from me

GM: verified; nothing done, technically it was within the rules

 

No bashing, just facts.

 

Person E: Person F killed 70 of my horses

Person F: PVP made me who I am

GM: verified; Person E had no business leaving perms open to friends; nothing done

 

So if there's a forum of only these arbitrations, there's no need to pin. And the usual unrelated bickering can be trimmed out for the version that stays.

 

 

 

[LorraineJ 1,099]

14 hours ago, Keenan said:

 

I could be wrong, but immorality is a part of life and and Wurm. If we wanted to code strict player morals, we could. We at least go so far as to code in a basic idea of what's lawful, but I think policing morality is a bit beyond the scope of the team. Secure your stuff and have fun playing the game. Create an external forum if you feel there's a need to document morality cases better.

 

 

I'm here to play PvE. I don't want to even concern myself with morality. I just want to have a good time. But due to the nebulous rules, sometimes I'm stuck with inconsiderate people causing trouble, which leads to GMs making arbitrary decisions about the outcome of situations. I don't need that sh_t. No one does. Since the rules can't be laid out to enforce decency, and since we're stuck with whims when problems crop up, airing issues publicly is our only resort.

 

And all of you, stop suggesting that there be an outside forum. It would be ugly. There's no way for the person hosting the forum to prove or disprove accusations. At least here, if someone says so-and-so took something, an authority can say no they did not. We should try to keep the truth here if we can. And that means stop censoring.

 

 

[Keenan 5,539]

2 minutes ago, LorraineJ said:

And all of you, stop suggesting that there be an outside forum. It would be ugly. There's no way for the person hosting the forum to prove or disprove accusations. At least here, if someone says so-and-so took something, an authority can say no they did not. We should try to keep the truth here if we can. And that means stop censoring.

 

You want an already understaffed GM team to take up the task of managing a forum of essentially saying who was naughty and who was nice?

[LorraineJ 1,099]

15 hours ago, Pandalet said:

Pinning this sort of thread to the top of the forum would result in the first page becoming nothing but dealings gone wrong; I don't think that's useful.  Perhaps a separate section for trades gone wrong, etc. is something we can look at; really, though, I'd hope that there aren't enough inidividuals that require this treatment to make it really necessary, and I would be concerned that such a sub-forum would turn into a toxic drama pit.

 

 

This is true; the pinning would have to be within a griefing/theft subforum. And just facts in the pinned article.

 

If you think there are not a lot of trades gone wrong, or thefts, or griefings, or stalkings, or bullyings - do you not play the game? Are people treating you differently because you're more in a position of authority? I don't know anyone who's escaped at least a couple of these things. Of course many of those have quit playing.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

1 minute ago, Keenan said:

 

You want an already understaffed GM team to take up the task of managing a forum of essentially saying who was naughty and who was nice?

 

You know what? I think they'd be under less strain if they did. As problems are handled now, each damn problem is dragged out to eternity. "Oooh, let me take a month or 12 to check into this problem. Let me ask 75 people what they think." Just handle each problem quickly and with decency. If someone has stolen, have them give back what they took. If someone is stalking someone, tell them if they go near that person ONE more time it equals an IP ban. If someone is serially griefing, tell them ONE more action equals permaban. If someone kills someone else's animals, tell them ONE more infraction = ban, and take away 1/2 of their skills. Then, people will know not to mess around. This crap all keeps happening because everyone knows they can get away with it. The staff is creating their own work by not resolving issues sensibly. It's perverse to have people who've signed on to play PvE have to put up with this.